Politics Aussie Fascists and Nazis

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RICHOLEGEND12

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Just passing by and don't really want to develop this argument, but didn't Hitler claim to a Nazi colleague that "the whole of National Socialism" was based on Marx?


"In the August of 1914 the German worker was looked upon as an adherent of Marxist socialism. That was a gross error. When those fateful hours dawned the German worker shook off the poisonous clutches of that plague; otherwise he would not have been so willing and ready to fight."

" Marxism, whose final objective was and is and will continue to be the destruction of all non-Jewish national States...""

" We chose red for our posters after particular and careful deliberation, our intention being to irritate the Left, so as to arouse their attention and tempt them to come to our meetings--if only in order to break them up--so that in this way we got a chance of talking to the people. "

""In short, even at that time, already I recognized that this evil is only partly a result of the doctrines taught by Socialism, Pacifism, etc., but mainly the result of our totally inadequate system of education, the defects of which are responsible for the lack of devotion to our own national ideals. "

"Just as in 1918 we had to pay with our blood for the failure to crush the Marxist serpent underfoot once and for all in 1914 and 1915, now we h
ave to suffer retribution for the fact that in the spring of 1923 we did not seize the opportunity then offered us for finally wiping out the handiwork done by the Marxists who betrayed their country and were responsible for the murder of our people."

" On the day when Marxism is broken in Germany the chains that bind Germany will be smashed for ever "

"These two perils were Marxism and Judaism "

" The Press of the Left had begun to take notice of us and we were lucky enough in being able gradually to arouse their wrath "

"Once we had begun to appear as a danger to Marxism the Marxists lost no opportunity of trying to crush beforehand all preparations for the holding of National Socialist meetings'

"that the problem of how the future of the German nation can be secured is the problem of how Marxism can be exterminated. "


All quotes from the one and only, Adolf Hitler.


Can probably find a thousand more if you like...
 

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Malifice

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Just passing by and don't really want to develop this argument, but didn't Hitler claim to a Nazi colleague that "the whole of National Socialism" was based on Marx?
A Far Right wing derivative that retained only as much 'socialism' as was needed to win over the working class without nailing the Junker elite and wealthy industrialists.

The Nazi regime had little to do with socialism, despite it being prominently included in the name of the National Socialist German Workers’ Party. The NSDAP, from Hitler on down, struggled with the political implications of having socialism in the party name. Some early Nazi leaders, such as Gregor and Otto Strasser, appealed to working-class resentments, hoping to wean German workers away from their attachment to existing socialist and communist parties. The NSDAP’s 1920 party program, the 25 points, included passages denouncing banks, department stores and “interest slavery,” which suggested a quasi-Marxist rejection of free markets. But these were also typical criticisms in the anti-Semitic playbook, which provided a clue that the party’s overriding ideological goal wasn’t a fundamental challenge to private property.

Instead of controlling the means of production or redistributing wealth to build a utopian society, the Nazis focused on safeguarding a social and racial hierarchy. They promised solidarity for members of the Volksgemeinschaft (“racial community”) even as they denied rights to those outside the charmed circle.
The right needs to stop falsely claiming that the Nazis were socialists - The Washington Post

What means of production they did seize, was used to implement a Nation State that fostered racial and cultural solidarity, and favored the ethnically pure 'working class/ rust belt/ white battler' demographic all too often appealed to by the populist Right wing, while also using that power to disadvantage (to say the least) ethnic and religious minorities, LGBTI, Freemasons, the handicapped and disabled, leftists, liberals and actual socialists by deporting, disenfranchising and eventually simply murdering them en masse.

So basically the kind of State you desire, at least in part.
 

RICHOLEGEND12

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It's not needed. Hitler (and the Nazis) were far Right wing.

No one other than trolls argue otherwise.
I know.

Occasionally I think with the aid of some facts and reason, these people will change their minds. But I should know better.

An interesting point though, and one I've already said in this thread. Where do these 'hitler was on the left' people think current day aussie nazis fit on the political spectrum?

A lot of these 'hitler was on the left ' folk are also antifa haters and say antifa are the real fascists. Yet antifa counter protests neo nazis, and other rwnjs.

So according to their logic, nazis are on the left, and antifa are right wingers?? Hmmm.....
 

Malifice

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Bah, the only things separating Hitler's socialism from Marxism were race and the concept of the Fatherland.
Utter bullshit. Marxists sought to seize control of the means of production in order to create a utopia where everyone was equal. As a byproduct of that, the wealthy and educated 'bourgeoise' were persecuted.

Nazis sought to seize control of the means of production to create a 'utopia' where every non white/ non German/ non male/ non heterosexual/ non able bodied person no longer existed.

They're in no way the same thing.

There is a reason why the Marxists and Nazis hated each other you realize? One sought to eradicate hierarchy. The other sought to enshrine one.
 

Malifice

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I know.

Occasionally I think with the aid of some facts and reason, these people will change their minds. But I should know better.

An interesting point though, and one I've already said in this thread. Where do these 'hitler was on the left' people think current day aussie nazis fit on the political spectrum?

A lot of these 'hitler was on the left ' folk are also antifa haters and say antifa are the real fascists. Yet antifa counter protests neo nazis, and other rwnjs.

So according to their logic, nazis are on the left, and antifa are right wingers?? Hmmm.....
It's just a dog whistle by ultra conservatives.

Both Meds and Ron have posited support for the existence of 'biological race', the White Australia policy, the hierarchal nature of certain races, mandatory detention of brown people and worse, while advocating strong nationalist ideals and policies.

Rons political views (as expressed to me in PM and publicly) in particular have a lot in common with Nazism. Meds is a little limited by his hard on for the free market, but even he will support invasive market intervention by the State in the name of 'national interest' so you never know.
 

Morrison33

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But they don't. The further to the right you go, the more you see hostility towards women, LGBTI, ethnic and religious minorities and so forth.

Any thread on any of those topics (minorities, migration, LGBTI issues, feminism, etc) will see the conservative posters on here supporting laws to harm those minorities/ or opposing laws to assist them (prohibiting same sex marriage, approving mandatory detention of refugees, stopping non white migration, opposing safe schools etc etc).

Conversely the left leaning posters will support safe schools, migration, feminist issues, same sex marriage etc.

Go to a right wing forum, have a read, and you'll see what I'm talking about.
Australians on both sides of politics are highly tolerant people with an ambition to create the best life possible for themselves and their family.

There is a fringe element on both sides who possess bigoted prejudice but it is just that a fringe element. It exists just as much on the left however the difference is that far left tend to view minorities groups as being on their side in the fight against capitalism but the moment a member of a minority group corsses over to the conservative side their prejudice is exposed.
 

Malifice

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Australians on both sides of politics are highly tolerant people with an ambition to create the best life possible for themselves and their family.
I broadly agree.

There is a fringe element on both sides who possess bigoted prejudice but it is just that a fringe element.
I disagree. Bigoted prejudice is more common that just a fringe element.

There is always at least one dickead at every dinner party that wants to talk about 'lazy Aborigines' or 'violent Africans' or similar crap, always with the disclaimer of 'I'm not racist, but...'
 

Carringbush2010

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here is a reason why the Marxists and Nazis hated each other you realize? One sought to eradicate hierarchy. The other sought to enshrine one.
This conversation debate is very interesting, but I'm more curious about this - getting off topic a bit. And this will sound 'primal' (some would say Neanderthal)

Hierarchal systems have been the tool for order in mammalian nature since the dawn of time (and not just mammals), without it there is chaos because mammalian (or other) nature would take advantage of no order. As far as human kind goes you end up with an anarchic society (even if you could call it societal).

For example if mum and dad (or mum and mum or dad and dad - whatever) don't have hierarchy over their dependents then there is anarchy in the household.

The problem with Hierarchy is not hierarchy itself, it is certain individuals or groups that take advantage of hierarchy for self gain of whatever societal model is taken advantage of.

There is good reason far left idealists are anti hierarchy ^, particularly in (on face value) liberal democratic societies based economically on capitalism.

This is in part the reason for non practical progressive ideas (usually centred around advantage to minorities at cost to the majority). This further frustrates conservative types because by and large 'progressive' ideals should be practical instead of advantaging minorities to the cost of the majority.

So while assholes like nazis enshrine hierarchy for self gain, the alternative - anarchy - is much worse.
 

Ron The Bear

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Utter bullshit. Marxists sought to seize control of the means of production in order to create a utopia where everyone was equal. As a byproduct of that, the wealthy and educated 'bourgeoise' were persecuted.
Not bullshit at all. They just substituted blood and soil for internationalism.
Nazis sought to seize control of the means of production to create a 'utopia' where every non white/ non German/ non male/ non heterosexual/ non able bodied person no longer existed.
Well that is essentially eugenics (very fashionable at the time but fell out of favour post-Nazism). Even the most hard-boiled lefty understands and accepts that eugenics was a product of the left.
 
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twotooto

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You don't need a bikie, just a coffee and a bickie while you print the bastard out on a 3D printer!!

Amazing what tech can come up with nowadays. I think some basic safety etiquette should still apply though ~

 

RedStarUncle

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This conversation debate is very interesting, but I'm more curious about this - getting off topic a bit. And this will sound 'primal' (some would say Neanderthal)

Hierarchal systems have been the tool for order in mammalian nature since the dawn of time (and not just mammals), without it there is chaos because mammalian (or other) nature would take advantage of no order. As far as human kind goes you end up with an anarchic society (even if you could call it societal).

For example if mum and dad (or mum and mum or dad and dad - whatever) don't have hierarchy over their dependents then there is anarchy in the household.

The problem with Hierarchy is not hierarchy itself, it is certain individuals or groups that take advantage of hierarchy for self gain of whatever societal model is taken advantage of.

There is good reason far left idealists are anti hierarchy ^, particularly in (on face value) liberal democratic societies based economically on capitalism.

This is in part the reason for non practical progressive ideas (usually centred around advantage to minorities at cost to the majority). This further frustrates conservative types because by and large 'progressive' ideals should be practical instead of advantaging minorities to the cost of the majority.

So while assholes like nazis enshrine hierarchy for self gain, the alternative - anarchy - is much worse.


I like this point.


I'd argue that while the broad "left" oppose hierarchies based on race, class (historically accumulated wealth) or gender..... the "far-left" might loosely be considered as wanting to replace those hierarchies with anarchy (or at least removing them at all costs). Whereas the centre or moderate left might be considered as wanting to replace those hierarchies with a meritocracy.

Meritocracies still allow for hierarchies, but those hierarchies are based on demonstrated competency. The centre-right probably also endorse meritocracy, with the only difference between the two being the level of social support for those at the bottom of the hierarchy.


Hence the centre-left and centre-right ("everyday people") have more in common with each other, but are increasingly dragged into the fringe-dwelling far-left anarchists versus far-right supremacists in the modern pick-a-side culture.
 

Mofra

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This is in part the reason for non practical progressive ideas (usually centred around advantage to minorities at cost to the majority). This further frustrates conservative types because by and large 'progressive' ideals should be practical instead of advantaging minorities to the cost of the majority.

So while assholes like nazis enshrine hierarchy for self gain, the alternative - anarchy - is much worse.
There is a real delineation in what 'the left' want and what 'the right' think the left want.

The majority of what could be described as left want equality of opportunity which in it's current form neoliberalism does not provide.
The 'right' seem to confuse this with wanting equality of outcome and spend their energy arguing against this.

And around and around we go.
 

Malifice

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Well that is essentially eugenics (very fashionable at the time but fell out of favour post-Nazism). Even the most hard-boiled lefty understands and accepts that eugenics was a product of the left.
Interesting that in response to me stating you have expressed racist views and are an advocate for the white Australia policy and an ultra nationalist - views in line with actual literal Nazism - this is your only point of disagreement:

'The left started eugenics'.

I get you cant disagree with the rest of what I said, because you've directly said as much to me in the past, but still.

Seeing as you largely agree with Nazis, you must be 'left wing' right?
 

Morrison33

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There is a real delineation in what 'the left' want and what 'the right' think the left want.

The majority of what could be described as left want equality of opportunity which in it's current form neoliberalism does not provide.
The 'right' seem to confuse this with wanting equality of outcome and spend their energy arguing against this.

And around and around we go.
I am not sure what examples you have in mind about neoliberalism not offering equality of opportunity but quota's are certainly an example of equality of outcome.
 

Geelong_Sicko

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Bah, the only things separating Hitler's socialism from Marxism were race and the concept of the Fatherland.
But race and the concept of Fatherland were the two planks of the whole extermination camp system. If Hitler just didn't DO that sh*t history would not have painted him in such a deservedly repulsive light.
 

Geelong_Sicko

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Truth is high immigration will always lead to lower wages and less job security because it means a greater supply of workers. Nothing can be done about this.

You can only raise award rates and conditions so so much before you limit the ability of small business to hire and employ people.

This is not a racist position to take because it doesn't matter what the skin colour of those immigrants are. Its just basic economics.
Yeah, it's not a racist position, but it can be framed as one depending on the intent of the person or group espousing such concerns. That's why it's key to take these talking points away from the far right. Because that's their ticket to the mainstream - concern about jobs. Concern about crime. They'll examine statistics divided by ethnicity and use it to boost the hate.

We need to take these talking points away from the hard right and we need to do it by examining the problems and talking about it like adults. And punishing criminals themselves when crime occurs, NOT the ethnic group said criminal was born into.
 

Geelong_Sicko

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I know.

Occasionally I think with the aid of some facts and reason, these people will change their minds. But I should know better.

An interesting point though, and one I've already said in this thread. Where do these 'hitler was on the left' people think current day aussie nazis fit on the political spectrum?

A lot of these 'hitler was on the left ' folk are also antifa haters and say antifa are the real fascists. Yet antifa counter protests neo nazis, and other rwnjs.

So according to their logic, nazis are on the left, and antifa are right wingers?? Hmmm.....
The outright haters you'll never change. But those on the fringes CAN be swayed with reason. It's just a matter of staying on message and using facts that they themselves can verify.
 

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