Australia’s defence forces.

[sr36]

I'm not a fan of militarism, of the way Australia's view of strategic defence obliges it to hop aboard US engagements, and the way in which war has become central to Australian 'national identity' over the past 30 years.

It bothers me that the government forks out $100 million to a WWI museum in France that most Australians will never visit, and $500 million for an Australian War Memorial upgrade.

Along with the tens of millions already spent on remembering --and seemingly celebrating-- war, I reckon that the money and attention could be better spent elsewhere.

But the crimes being revealed through the report and future prosecution deserve to be seen in a particular light, rather than just seeing them as the latest episodes in military adventurism or inevitable outcomes of lackeyism.

Whatever might be said about the broader culture of the ADF, the Afghan murders are especially repugnant and need to be seen in their own sickly light.

In a confined period of time, a relatively narrow --they'd call themselves exceptional-- set of people took it upon themselves to inflict an especially murderous campaign of violence upon the local population.

The culture which gave rise to this and the leadership which allowed it to thrive is not reflective of the defence forces. I think it's important to point that out, not to 'defend the defence forces', but to underscore the special horrors of the Brereton report.

Somewhere along the line we've gone from remembering the loss of life to glorifying the sacrifice.

 

[JB1975]

Somewhere along the line we've gone from remembering the loss of life to glorifying the sacrifice.

No shortage of academic discussion about when and why it happened, no single answer.

What I remember is that Anzac Day at the Shrine in the 1980s attracted 100s of people to the Dawn Service, maybe 500 at most. Now they come in their tens of thousands, to commemorate the 'birth of the nation'.

 

[Black_White]

No quibble with the memorial and cemetery. A fitting remembrance.

There is now also the John Monash Centre, a $100 million 'interactive experience' paid for by taxpayers who (mostly) won't see it.

It was a few months from completion when we were there.
One of the things we witnessed there were the French workers taking time on their lunch break to pay respects to the graves.
There are many memorials for fallen Australians all over the world. Most Australians will never see them. Most Australians won’t even see those closest to us in New Guinea.
Doesnt mean we shouldn’t contribute and continue to maintain these places.

 

[Black_White]

Somewhere along the line we've gone from remembering the loss of life to glorifying the sacrifice.

It’s the rise of nationalism. It’s the rise of the right, those who wrap themselves in the flag and truly believe that there is no place for diversity in Australia.
Conveniently forgetting that the majority of us are the actual diversity forced upon the indigenous of this country.

 

[JB1975]

It was a few months from completion when we were there.
One of the things we witnessed there were the French workers taking time on their lunch break to pay respects to the graves.
There are many memorials for fallen Australians all over the world. Most Australians will never see them. Most Australians won’t even see those closest to us in New Guinea.
Doesnt mean we shouldn’t contribute and continue to maintain these places.

I think that the John Monash Centre is a appalling expenditure.

No issue at all with memorials and the maintenance of them.

 

[Black_White]

I think that the John Monash Centre is a appalling expenditure.

No issue at all with memorials and the maintenance of them.

The question is, was that expenditure over and above the normal budget of the war graves commission?
I don’t know.

 

[JB1975]

The question is, was that expenditure over and above the normal budget of the war graves commission?
I don’t know.

Yes, very much beyond the ordinary, just like the $500 million being allocated to the AWM expansion.

And the amount of money thrown at the AWM in a usual year is the envy of any and every other cultural institution in this country: the National Archives, National Gallery, National Museum etc.

Memory in Australia has come to mean war memory.

 

[Black_White]

Yes, very much beyond the ordinary, just like the $500 million being allocated to the AWM expansion.

And the amount of money thrown at the AWM in a usual year is the envy of any and every other cultural institution in this country: the National Archives, National Gallery, National Museum etc.

Memory in Australia has come to mean war memory.

Just saw that the Monash centre was planned, then stopped in the early 2000’s.
Then along came Tony.......
Must have thought he may have got a knighthood out of it.

 

[Markfs]

Yes, very much beyond the ordinary, just like the $500 million being allocated to the AWM expansion.

And the amount of money thrown at the AWM in a usual year is the envy of any and every other cultural institution in this country: the National Archives, National Gallery, National Museum etc.

Memory in Australia has come to mean war memory.

It's interesting how this war memory has changed during my lifetime.

In my early years, the ANZAC march was a fairly sombre affair about those who survived remembering those that died.

Then in the vietnam and post-vietnam years, the whole war thing became a dirty word and ex soldiers almost went into hiding..

And then around the bob hawke years, they decided to reinflate the ANZAC thing and then came the bicentennial thing and then a few years later the ANZAC game and there was this momentum for nationalism and remembering the soldiers and guys who fought for our freedom.... even though most of them went overseas as a bit of an adventure.

And the war memorial thing just keeps getting bigger. I did some research on my grandfather who was at Gallipoli on the first morning...and i downloaded his war record and even his medical records throughout his life... all available to all. His applications for disability pension and his refusals...it's quite an eye opener about what constitutes privacy and what feeds this ANZAC industry. They even digitised the local papers for most of the small towns around the country for the WW1 period.. I think the war memorial is going to run out of things to put on line or make exhibits out of. Good for tourism in Canberra i suppose and good for getting young australians ready to fight wars..

 

[JB1975]

It's interesting how this war memory has changed during my lifetime.

In my early years, the ANZAC march was a fairly sombre affair about those who survived remembering those that died.

Then in the vietnam and post-vietnam years, the whole war thing became a dirty word and ex soldiers almost went into hiding..

And then around the bob hawke years, they decided to reinflate the ANZAC thing and then came the bicentennial thing and then a few years later the ANZAC game and there was this momentum for nationalism and remembering the soldiers and guys who fought for our freedom.... even though most of them went overseas as a bit of an adventure.

And the war memorial thing just keeps getting bigger. I did some research on my grandfather who was at Gallipoli on the first morning...and i downloaded his war record and even his medical records throughout his life... all available to all. His applications for disability pension and his refusals...it's quite an eye opener about what constitutes privacy and what feeds this ANZAC industry. They even digitised the local papers for most of the small towns around the country for the WW1 period.. I think the war memorial is going to run out of things to put on line or make exhibits out of. Good for tourism in Canberra i suppose and good for getting young australians ready to fight wars..

Ordinary people don't really appear in 'History', mostly invisible, except in isolated and spectacular instances like war. In one way it's good that we can recover their experience through the AWM and service files on the National Archives website.

As an aside, I've never known my biological father --he's still alive, I think-- but found him on the NAA website because his service records from Vietnam are digitised.

But as you say, the problem is that we've come to see our entire past through the prism of war. I think you're right that the Hawke years were important, followed by the various 50 year anniversaries of WWII from 1989 onwards.

End of the Cold War and globalisation tended to give nationalism an added boost as well.

 

[Markfs]

Ordinary people don't really appear in 'History', mostly invisible, except in isolated and spectacular instances like war. In one way it's good that we can recover their experience through the AWM and service files on the National Archives website.

As an aside, I've never known my biological father --he's still alive, I think-- but found him on the NAA website because his service records from Vietnam are digitised.

But as you say, the problem is that we've come to see our entire past through the prism of war. I think you're right that the Hawke years were important, followed by the various 50 year anniversaries of WWII from 1989 onwards.

End of the Cold War and globalisation tended to give nationalism an added boost as well.

I think the guys who went to vietnam were treated terribly by the peace brigade and it flowed to the wider community. Especially the conscripts who had no choice except to go to jail if they objected. But then the whole thing turned around in the hawke years and they were treated like war heroes - although I dont think the vietnam boys ever got the full ANZAC treatment. I was happy that they could at least come out of the woodwork and reveal that they fought in vietnam.

in more recent times, I actually had to agree with alan jones, which made me question my sanity. Scomo and the military brass were too quick to brand all the SAS as letting down the tradition that the gov't had played a large part in building up. I was surprised that he anticipated the outcomes of trials and the chances that these guys would have to respond to allegations. Once again, we swing too far..

Theres far too much emphasis placed on war history as a source for describing what makes australians australian.

 

[Black_White]

Ordinary people don't really appear in 'History', mostly invisible, except in isolated and spectacular instances like war. In one way it's good that we can recover their experience through the AWM and service files on the National Archives website.

As an aside, I've never known my biological father --he's still alive, I think-- but found him on the NAA website because his service records from Vietnam are digitised.

But as you say, the problem is that we've come to see our entire past through the prism of war. I think you're right that the Hawke years were important, followed by the various 50 year anniversaries of WWII from 1989 onwards.

End of the Cold War and globalisation tended to give nationalism an added boost as well.

Forgetting the rest of your post, I’m focusing on the fact you have found that your biological father is alive.
Heres an opportunity to connect.
There are no guarantees. You may be rejected, you may be welcomed.
But time is short. When he is gone I am sure you will regret at least not trying to connect.
Its a huge emotional journey, but you need to take it.
Forgive me if I’ve overstepped the boundary on this issue.

 

[Markfs]

Forgetting the rest of your post, I’m focusing on the fact you have found that your biological father is alive.
Heres an opportunity to connect.
There are no guarantees. You may be rejected, you may be welcomed.
But time is short. When he is gone I am sure you will regret at least not trying to connect.
Its a huge emotional journey, but you need to take it.
Forgive me if I’ve overstepped the boundary on this issue.

sometimes fathers walk away... and it's my opinion that the person who should be doing the bridging of the gap is the father. And I am not speaking about this example. its not my business. however on the wider issue, i have an opinion

 

[JB1975]

Forgetting the rest of your post, I’m focusing on the fact you have found that your biological father is alive.
Heres an opportunity to connect.
There are no guarantees. You may be rejected, you may be welcomed.
But time is short. When he is gone I am sure you will regret at least not trying to connect.
Its a huge emotional journey, but you need to take it.
Forgive me if I’ve overstepped the boundary on this issue.

I understand the advice, and friends over the years have suggested the same.

I've found relationships hard in life, even with those who love me most, so I'm not inclined to embrace someone who rejected me long ago and has shown no interest in me since.

 

[Markfs]

I understand the advice, and friends over the years have suggested the same.

I've found relationships hard in life, even with those who love me most, so I'm not inclined to embrace someone who rejected me long ago and has shown no interest in me since.

well said

 

[Black_White]

I understand the advice, and friends over the years have suggested the same.

I've found relationships hard in life, even with those who love me most, so I'm not inclined to embrace someone who rejected me long ago and has shown no interest in me since.

Fair enough, it is your life.
As long as your at peace with never having that opportunity once he passes.
Its the one simple question to ask yourself.

 

[Scritchyscroony]

Imagine if there were camerans and smartphones in ww2... imagine the atrocities both sides committed.

War creates monsters, it's natural.

You ask a man to fight for his life and he turns into an animal

Umm what? There were plenty of cameras in WW2. Photography was wildly popular amongst the troops and it was easily the most openly documented war ever. The raw combat footage in WW2 is amazing. Atrocities? Have you never seen the holocaust photos?

War just brings out what is in each and every one of us

 

[Kappa]

Umm what? There were plenty of cameras in WW2. Photography was wildly popular amongst the troops and it was easily the most openly documented war ever. The raw combat footage in WW2 is amazing. Atrocities? Have you never seen the holocaust photos?

War just brings out what is in each and every one of us

So most of the fights in WW2 were recorded on peoples phones and on cameras? Every soldier had access to record what happened?

Yes, atrocities, imagine the amount of murdering, raping and torturing that happened behind closed doors.

 

[Scritchyscroony]

So most of the fights in WW2 were recorded on peoples phones and on cameras? Every soldier had access to record what happened?

Yes, atrocities, imagine the amount of murdering, raping and torturing that happened behind closed doors.

Yes . WW2 was recorded on camera, both movie and still To an amazing extent...
Cameras existed before smart phones you know. True fact.
No need to imagine what happened behind closed doors... Just look at the photos they took...

 

[Kappa]

Yes . WW2 was recorded on camera, both movie and still To an amazing extent...
Cameras existed before smart phones you know. True fact.
No need to imagine what happened behind closed doors... Just look at the photos they took...

I think everything I've said has just gone straight over your head.

 

[Scritchyscroony]

I think everything I've said has just gone straight over your head.

You said "imagine if there were cameras in WW2". I was just pointing out how dumb and historically ignorant that was.
I was also pointing out that the photos of the Einsatzgruppen for example don't leave anything behind closed doors or to the imagination. You don't need to imagine what went on in that war bud... If only they had smart phones lol. It's all there in black and white to see...

 

[Scritchyscroony]

Imagine if there were camerans and smartphones in ww2... imagine the atrocities both sides committed.

War creates monsters, it's natural.

You ask a man to fight for his life and he turns into an animal

Imagine if there was television in the 1960s then we could have seen what the Vietnam war was like.

 

[Kappa]

You said "imagine if there were cameras in WW2". I was just pointing out how dumb and historically ignorant that was.
I was also pointing out that the photos of the Einsatzgruppen for example don't leave anything behind closed doors or to the imagination. You don't need to imagine what went on in that war bud... If only they had smart phones lol. It's all there in black and white to see...

Clearly I was referring to modern technology where every single person has a camera and video recorded in their pocket, which leads to a lot more things being recorded than there were in the 1940's... do you understand that?

Pointing out that there were photos of some incidents does not change the fact that there was an incredibly huge amount of horrific things never recorded, how the * do you not understand these basic things? Wtf is your argument?

 

[Markfs]

i like how you two guys are demonstrating how wars can start for the most ridiculous reasons.... keep up the good work

 

[Scritchyscroony]

Clearly I was referring to modern technology where every single person has a camera and video recorded in their pocket, which leads to a lot more things being recorded than there were in the 1940's... do you understand that?

Pointing out that there were photos of some incidents does not change the fact that there was an incredibly huge amount of horrific things never recorded, how the fu** do you not understand these basic things? Wtf is your argument?

Mate don't get testy with me. It's not my fault your brain led you to think it was a good idea to write "imagine if there were cameras in WW2" in an online forum.

Also, soldiers don't carry their mobile phones while they're on combat missions bud...
So I guess my main argument is just that you're a bit dumb
Imagine if they had steam trains back in the 1800's.