Australia’s defence forces.

[Black_White]

I have no words.
Just watch the embedded video.

Witnesses say SAS soldier killed another civilian in an incident known as 'the village idiot killing'

SAS patrol members who witnessed the newly uncovered killing say an intellectually disabled man was shot by their colleague in the back of the head as he was trying to "limp" away.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Markfs]

while i dont excuse australian military from doing the right thing - if that is possible in war - I think australian involvement in US strategic pursuits has compromised the culture of our military. The US has changed its "partners" several times in the afgan and iraq situations to best suit its own needs and we have to go along with this. I dont know if its possible to run a righteous war in such an environment - if its possible at all.

I think the military should only be called in when it is to protect australians lives and liberties.

 

[Black_White]

This is terrible if true.
The romance of the Digger is definitely over.

Australian soldiers killed prisoner because he could not fit on aircraft, American marine says

During their deployment in Afghanistan, Australian special forces had a bad reputation among some US colleagues. One marine says Australians "would see the line and hop right over it".

www.abc.net.au

 

[Markfs]

This is terrible if true.
The romance of the Digger is definitely over.

Australian soldiers killed prisoner because he could not fit on aircraft, American marine says

During their deployment in Afghanistan, Australian special forces had a bad reputation among some US colleagues. One marine says Australians "would see the line and hop right over it".

www.abc.net.au

The romance was never right in the first place. My grandfather landed on gallipoli on the first day. He went for adventure and came back a broken man in many ways. The ones that loved it wrote the stories. Such is war.

Dont condemn people too much when they are ordered to fight a war with questionable morality.

 

[Kappa]

This is terrible if true.
The romance of the Digger is definitely over.

Australian soldiers killed prisoner because he could not fit on aircraft, American marine says

During their deployment in Afghanistan, Australian special forces had a bad reputation among some US colleagues. One marine says Australians "would see the line and hop right over it".

www.abc.net.au

Imagine if there were camerans and smartphones in ww2... imagine the atrocities both sides committed.

War creates monsters, it's natural.

You ask a man to fight for his life and he turns into an animal

 

[Black_White]

Imagine if there were camerans and smartphones in ww2... imagine the atrocities both sides committed.

War creates monsters, it's natural.

You ask a man to fight for his life and he turns into an animal

Very true.
But we (Australians) have always distanced ourselves from atrocities. We have always "tut tutted" about how other countries were the perpetrators.
Anyone we killed was justified and because we were in fear for our lives.
"No room on the chopper" isn't really justified.

 

[Kappa]

Very true.
But we (Australians) have always distanced ourselves from atrocities. We have always "tut tutted" about how other countries were the perpetrators.
Anyone we killed was justified and because we were in fear for our lives.
"No room on the chopper" isn't really justified.

That's only because all the horrible things we did in the past were swept under the rug. Naive to think we're better than anyone else, war changes people.

 

[Markfs]

That's only because all the horrible things we did in the past were swept under the rug. Naive to think we're better than anyone else, war changes people.

I think war was conducted between men in uniform in World War 2, certainly for the Australians. Things were a bit different for russians, for example, who were devastated by the Germans in the early parts of the war and the Russians returned to Germany and basically paid back the civilian population. There were examples on the allies side like the bombing of civilian populations in Germany. But I think the greater majority of Australians came back from that war having killed only men in uniform - and respected them enough to treat them well if they captured them.

Things changed in Vietnam where the Australians were in Nui Dat and they mightnt know which side the civilian population was on.

In the recent wars in Iraq and Afgan, the Americans have changed "partners" at regular intervals and they might be "friends" with people 6 months after they were shooting at them. Ask an Australian soldier what he is fighting for then.

My sister married a guy who was desperate to go over there years ago.... and then he came back with mental problems. There's a lot of people in that boat. I think the leaders of countries should be required to serve on the front line for 6 months. In ancient times, the great generals used to lead their armies to wars....not now. They just get written up in the history books. I wouldnt be going to war unless I see Scott morrison in front of me, or the guy from hillsong.

 

[Kappa]

I think war was conducted between men in uniform in World War 2, certainly for the Australians. Things were a bit different for russians, for example, who were devastated by the Germans in the early parts of the war and the Russians returned to Germany and basically paid back the civilian population. There were examples on the allies side like the bombing of civilian populations in Germany. But I think the greater majority of Australians came back from that war having killed only men in uniform - and respected them enough to treat them well if they captured them.

Things changed in Vietnam where the Australians were in Nui Dat and they mightnt know which side the civilian population was on.

In the recent wars in Iraq and Afgan, the Americans have changed "partners" at regular intervals and they might be "friends" with people 6 months after they were shooting at them. Ask an Australian soldier what he is fighting for then.

My sister married a guy who was desperate to go over there years ago.... and then he came back with mental problems. There's a lot of people in that boat. I think the leaders of countries should be required to serve on the front line for 6 months. In ancient times, the great generals used to lead their armies to wars....not now. They just get written up in the history books. I wouldnt be going to war unless I see Scott morrison in front of me, or the guy from hillsong.

I think the vast vast majority of the evil things the winning side did will never see the light of day.

When men are at war for 4 years and occupy an enemy city full of Germans that they hate more than the devil... As I said, just lucky there were no smartphones or cameras.

 

[Markfs]

I think the vast vast majority of the evil things the winning side did will never see the light of day.

When men are at war for 4 years and occupy an enemy city full of Germans that they hate more than the devil... As I said, just lucky there were no smartphones or cameras.

they weren't in german territory for that long. they came across the channel in the middle of 44 and the war was over by 45....and a lot of that was winning france belgium etc which was friendly. the russian german thing was more personal. the japanese did not treat the locals too friendly in south east asia.

i'm sure that the aussies brits didnt treat the japanese too friendly after what happened in singapore etc. I remember the RSL hated the japanese when I was a kid and that was years after the war. The japanese didnt treat their prisoners of war too kindly... and there was probably a lot of reciprocal stuff...so you're not wrong in certain areas.

however, the real problem with the iraq afgan stuff is that the aussies arent fighting to protect the country ..or for freedom ... I dont think america would be too interested in any of it except for oil and its links to israel and a general desire to extend the american empire.... you can understand how soldiers might get disassociated with doing the right thing. So generally war does this...but this is supermindless war. At least in WW2 there was a guy in hitler that an unbiased observer would say is nasty.

 

[TradeDraft]

I have no words.
Just watch the embedded video.

Witnesses say SAS soldier killed another civilian in an incident known as 'the village idiot killing'

SAS patrol members who witnessed the newly uncovered killing say an intellectually disabled man was shot by their colleague in the back of the head as he was trying to "limp" away.

www.abc.net.au

That guy should get the Death Penalty doing that

 

[Wattlebird]

Depressing reminder that ‘vets’ can be the literal scum of the earth, and their gun buddies will almost always stick with them. Absolutely pathetic.

 

[jathanas]

Noone that has served would find it hard to believe that atrocities take place in operational environments but it's still very confronting and disturbing for civilians to read this.

It has been anonymously reported that the Aussies had developed a reputation of sorts. This speaks of a worrying culture within the AU special forces if true.

People shouldn't romanticise war, there is nothing noble about it. Not now, not 100 years ago. War brings the ugly face of humanity to the fore.

'Blood lust, killings, cover-ups': Report describes Australia's 'Abu Ghraib' moment

Australian special forces soldiers tortured and executed prisoners in Afghanistan, according to an extraordinary report that kicked off the war-crimes inquiry.

www.theage.com.au

 

[Kappa]

Anyone that has served would not find it hard to believe that atrocities take place in operational environments but it's still very confronting and disturbing for civilians to read this.

It has been anonymously reported that the Aussies had developed a reputation of sorts. This speaks of a worrying culture within the AU special forces if true.

People shouldn't romanticise war, there is nothing noble about it. Not now, not 100 years ago. War brings the ugly face of humanity to the fore.

'Blood lust, killings, cover-ups': Report describes Australia's 'Abu Ghraib' moment

Australian special forces soldiers tortured and executed prisoners in Afghanistan, according to an extraordinary report that kicked off the war-crimes inquiry.

www.theage.com.au

I do have sympathy to them, they're put in positions where killing is normal, and they have these enemies trying to kill them weekly, they have lots of fear and hatred to the "enemy", they kill them regularly... War turns them into these monsters.

Much better when we have drones piloted remotely with no emotion involved do everything.

 

[Markfs]

I do have sympathy to them, they're put in positions where killing is normal, and they have these enemies trying to kill them weekly, they have lots of fear and hatred to the "enemy", they kill them regularly... War turns them into these monsters.

Much better when we have drones piloted remotely with no emotion involved do everything.

and self-programmed too. we dont want the remote pilots to turn into monsters.....better still, pay the locals to kill their own

 

[Markfs]

I read an article that speculated that a lot of what is now coming to light, is the result of the lack of purpose in the presence of Australian troops in Afganistan. Although personal responsibility should be the prime focus, the reasons Australian defence forces are directed to follow Americans into conflicts should also be questioned. I think we've played Robin to the US's Batman for far too long.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

It’s just hideous.

We Aussies think of our military the same way we do our Olympic athletes, or Schappelle Corby! Whenever something bad comes out your first response is to naively assume that they are innocent and that there must be some mistake... but we’re human and fallible and just as corruptible as everyone else.

 

[Markfs]

it's interesting how irate collingwood fans were at the treatment of the former magpie players..

I wonder how the australian community is going to respond to the report on the military's behaviour. There are strong parallels. Both club and defence forces represent us and are supposed to be transparent and accountable. Military people and footy clubs are held to standards above the normal punter in the street.

There's a long historical mythology about footy clubs and the military...

And the explanations by the military and our club officials have been well overdue in each case.

However, the actions by the military make the trade strategies of footy clubs look like something a 2 year old might do.

I've lived in WA for a number of years. I've had little to do with the SAS barracks during that time but the arrogance of those men is a well accepted fact around town. I get the feeling if those in charge didnt know, then they didnt wanna know.

 

[Black_White]

It was much worse than I thought. Much worse.
But I fear that we will never know the full story, by the amount of redacted pages in the report.
What I would like to see is the Australian SAS disbanded and replaced with a new unit that no longer is able to work with no oversight.
The operations these soldiers perform must be subject to review and soldiers who want to call out misdemeanours must be supported. Neither of these things seem to be happening now.
And ffs, the typical response from defence is to throw money at the problem. Sorry guys, but compensation isn’t going to bring these people back to their families.

 

[Markfs]

It was much worse than I thought. Much worse.
But I fear that we will never know the full story, by the amount of redacted pages in the report.
What I would like to see is the Australian SAS disbanded and replaced with a new unit that no longer is able to work with no oversight.
The operations these soldiers perform must be subject to review and soldiers who want to call out misdemeanours must be supported. Neither of these things seem to be happening now.
And ffs, the typical response from defence is to throw money at the problem. Sorry guys, but compensation isn’t going to bring these people back to their families.

They should make a commitment not to get involved in aimless wars or wars initiated by the USA that Australia tags into in order to ingratiate itself with the US for defence purposes.

I think we found out in the last 20 years the cost of this relationship. Rather than make Australians safer, it has opened up the country to terrorism and now it has corrupted many of this country's elite soldiers.

On ANZAC day, and many others, we hear about the servicemen who fought for our freedoms. The greater majority of these were good people. Most of them were fighting because they thought it was the right thing to do. In the case of my grandfather, he ended up on a beach in Turkey because he was looking for an adventure. He came back a different man. It's time to ditch the romanticism and put some boundaries on what conflicts this country gets involved in.

 

[Black_White]

They should make a commitment not to get involved in aimless wars or wars initiated by the USA that Australia tags into in order to ingratiate itself with the US for defence purposes.

I think we found out in the last 20 years the cost of this relationship. Rather than make Australians safer, it has opened up the country to terrorism and now it has corrupted many of this country's elite soldiers.

On ANZAC day, and many others, we hear about the servicemen who fought for our freedoms. The greater majority of these were good people. Most of them were fighting because they thought it was the right thing to do. In the case of my grandfather, he ended up on a beach in Turkey because he was looking for an adventure. He came back a different man. It's time to ditch the romanticism and put some boundaries on what conflicts this country gets involved in.

My father went to Vietnam, ironically because it meant making more money for his young family.
Left Australia as a Liberal. Returned as a Labour man.
Tells you everything you need to know about arse sucking Libs.

 

[JB1975]

I'm not a fan of militarism, of the way Australia's view of strategic defence obliges it to hop aboard US engagements, and the way in which war has become central to Australian 'national identity' over the past 30 years.

It bothers me that the government forks out $100 million to a WWI museum in France that most Australians will never visit, and $500 million for an Australian War Memorial upgrade.

Along with the tens of millions already spent on remembering --and seemingly celebrating-- war, I reckon that the money and attention could be better spent elsewhere.

But the crimes being revealed through the report and future prosecution deserve to be seen in a particular light, rather than just seeing them as the latest episodes in military adventurism or inevitable outcomes of lackeyism.

Whatever might be said about the broader culture of the ADF, the Afghan murders are especially repugnant and need to be seen in their own sickly light.

In a confined period of time, a relatively narrow --they'd call themselves exceptional-- set of people took it upon themselves to inflict an especially murderous campaign of violence upon the local population.

The culture which gave rise to this and the leadership which allowed it to thrive is not reflective of the defence forces. I think it's important to point that out, not to 'defend the defence forces', but to underscore the special horrors of the Brereton report.

 

[Wattlebird]

I'm not a fan of militarism, of the way Australia's view of strategic defence obliges it to hop aboard US engagements, and the way in which war has become central to Australian 'national identity' over the past 30 years.

It bothers me that the government forks out $100 million to a WWI museum in France that most Australians will never visit, and $500 million for an Australian War Memorial upgrade.

I think that’s an interesting thing to point out. As we all know, American patriotism and identity (for the white majority at least, possibly large segments of minority communities too) is mostly based on war, violence and conquest, justified as the pursuit of liberty, justice and freedom. They have a history to ostensibly back this up too (Revolutionary War, Civil War, War of 1812 etc.). Australia doesn’t have this ’easy’ history of fighting for freedom, liberty and so on; we feel as if we have to cling onto these American-esque national myths to remain relevant as a ‘Western’, post-colonial nation, lest we remember that our history is quite unfortunate and ... Horrid.

See, I believe that America has largely forgotten about their natives’ history. Sure, you get the odd activist who brings it up in the national news for, at most, a week, but those voices get overshadowed by the idea of ‘America, land of the free, home of the brave’, which is just such a strong idea and so ingrained. I honestly think it’s deliberately been made that way, forged through generations of conditioning to believe that they are the sole purveyors of liberalism and as such are excused of all crimes because how could the ‘Good Guys’ possibly have a dark history? Don’t like freedom, then go live in [developing country that is viewed as the enemy for that given weekday]!

anyway... I’m rambling. Summary: Australia is trying to be like America I reckon.

 

[Black_White]

I'm not a fan of militarism, of the way Australia's view of strategic defence obliges it to hop aboard US engagements, and the way in which war has become central to Australian 'national identity' over the past 30 years.

It bothers me that the government forks out $100 million to a WWI museum in France that most Australians will never visit, and $500 million for an Australian War Memorial upgrade.

Along with the tens of millions already spent on remembering --and seemingly celebrating-- war, I reckon that the money and attention could be better spent elsewhere.

But the crimes being revealed through the report and future prosecution deserve to be seen in a particular light, rather than just seeing them as the latest episodes in military adventurism or inevitable outcomes of lackeyism.

Whatever might be said about the broader culture of the ADF, the Afghan murders are especially repugnant and need to be seen in their own sickly light.

In a confined period of time, a relatively narrow --they'd call themselves exceptional-- set of people took it upon themselves to inflict an especially murderous campaign of violence upon the local population.

The culture which gave rise to this and the leadership which allowed it to thrive is not reflective of the defence forces. I think it's important to point that out, not to 'defend the defence forces', but to underscore the special horrors of the Brereton report.

I’ve been to that WW1 museum in France.
Was amazing to see just how revered our fallen are in a foreign country.

 

[JB1975]

I’ve been to that WW1 museum in France.
Was amazing to see just how revered our fallen are in a foreign country.

View attachment 1015626View attachment 1015627View attachment 1015628View attachment 1015629View attachment 1015630View attachment 1015631

No quibble with the memorial and cemetery. A fitting remembrance.

There is now also the John Monash Centre, a $100 million 'interactive experience' paid for by taxpayers who (mostly) won't see it.