Society/Culture Australia Day - Date Change

Should the date change

  • Yes

    Votes: 36 62.1%
  • No

    Votes: 24 41.4%

  • Total voters
    58

Remove this Banner Ad

Admiral Byng

Brownlow Medallist
May 3, 2009
20,568
16,603
Perth
AFL Club
Fremantle
Other Teams
Perth Scorchers
Manufacturing is heavily mechanised anyway. There just not the jobs in it any more, even if you’ve got some.
There are two kinds of manufacturing these days I reckon. The high capital, highly automated, energy intensive and heavily mechanised sort where the workers are highly skilled and trained technicians and engineers to keep the whole show running; and the low skilled manual assembly type. They should be considered separately I think, they have vastly different needs.
 

Gethelred

Brownlow Medallist
May 1, 2016
19,157
39,906
AFL Club
Carlton
Actually the "vast majority" of Australians who have fought overseas in all wars have been volunteers, not conscripts. Conscription was defeated twice in referendums in World War 1 (Australia sent between 400 and 500 thousand troops overseas to fight) and while it was introduced at the beginning of World War 2, CMF members were to be deployed in Australia only in defensive and logistical capacities.

Half a million Australians volunteered and served in World War one (counting Indigenous volunteers, who have also served in the military as far back as the Boer War). That number is extremely significant as a representation of a per-capita total population of around 5 million at the time, plus undocumented Indigenous folks.

In 1943 (WW2) Australia began to send CMF overseas, but only as a defensive measure in a limited area north of Australia (PNG and Timor being mandated Australian territories at the time so it was deemed more acceptable to do so), as there weren't enough regular troops to prevent Japanese movements into PNG. All smaller conflicts have been fought by regular volunteer units with the single exception of Vietnam, in which just over 15,000 conscripts served on active duty (of a total of around 50 thousand sent).

Roylion seems to have adequately covered the importance of the Dardanelles campaign so I wont bother with that. Other than to note that it was allied initiative, not solely British (more French troops served and died in the Dardanelles than Australia and New Zealand combined).

The idea you seem to have that Australian soldiers have not had a choice is, in effect, "bunkum". Particularly in World Wars one and two, it was a sense of national identity and a knowledge of their own cultural roots (among other things) which was a major factor in them serving in the armed forces during times of war.
Post has been edited, to reflect that.
If you going to make statements based upon historical events and motivations, it's probably best you know a little about them first.
Alternatively, lead with your chin out, and cop the blow full in your face if you're wrong.

And I do know more than a little about historical events and motivations; enough at least to be able to confront when I'm incorrect. Each time I'm wrong, I learn more. So, perhaps you could reconsider your attitude, hmm?
 

Log in to remove this ad.

Snake_Baker

The one true King of the North
Apr 24, 2013
81,029
153,115
Arden Street Hill
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Other Teams
Essendon Lawn Bowls Club
Each time I'm wrong, I learn more.
The one and ONLY way to view life.

It's the concession that's difficult for some, and the ultimate self slap is that they do not progress due to their close-mindedness.

I have met very few brilliant people who had highly developed ego's.
 

tandino

Brownlow Medallist
Mar 16, 2007
12,448
9,679
Showers Stand
AFL Club
Essendon
Not really.

26th January is the date the British started a penal colony on what is now our country.

March the 3rd was the date of the Australia act which formally removed any actual sovereignty from Britain. It was the day British Parliament could no longer make laws for Australia.

Its independent of the fuss around invasion day.

THe truth is we aren't going away. If anything we'll become more like indigenous Australians the longer we live here. They adapted to the place over tens of thousands of years. So the argument about changing the date is two sided.

One - its a bit of an insult to celebrate the day white people got here while ignoring the people who were already here. Its the same place. How will we mature as a nation if we don't face this and reconcile ourselves to what has happened here historically?

Two - what we call Australia Day actually has nothing to do with Australia in terms of what it means. Its the date the Poms did something. How will we mature as a nation if we still have such a fundamentally flawed understanding of who we are and how we arrived at this point as a free country?

Changing the date to March 3rd recognises this second point and is a step to deal with it.

Furthermore by 1986 the constitution recognised indigenous people were citizens as well. Its not the same as celebrating the day someone stuck a butcher's rag in our soil.
I'd argue that's its just an affirmation of the events of 1770 and 1788 by two countries, the former power and the current power, voted on by parliaments full of white people.

I can see Indigenous people having a problem with that date and all the milestones of independence.
 

ferball

Premium Platinum
Jul 24, 2015
27,719
52,778
AFL Club
North Melbourne
I'd argue that's its just an affirmation of the events of 1770 and 1788 by two countries, the former power and the current power, voted on by parliaments full of white people.

I can see Indigenous people having a problem with that date and all the milestones of independence.
Its not always the case. as much as there are people wanting soverreignty most seem to want a fair go and the ones wanting sovereignty (I know people like that) would probably be okay with a fair go too. Its the lack of fair go that drives them away. And if you think blackfellas get a fair go well you are wrong. The policing stats I quoted upthread are reflected nationally, not just an NT problem. If kids think they are an occupied population they'll grow up with chips on their shoulders. Happens in the western Suburbs to poor kids of any background.

I first heard the term invasion day last century. And it wasn't a formal thing just a way that blackfellas reacted to post 1988 celebrations and John Howard being a hyper nationalist. It was a term of derision because they felt excluded from Australia.

Then Mabo happened, Cathy Freeman, Nicky Winmar, Micheal Long and various League players all had racial issues. Paul Kelly put out some music and helped promote Archie Roach... Ernie Dingo was in a film called Blackfellas. Royal Commissions into shameful national behaviour were called. All this stuff happened in the late 80s and early 90s and suddenly indigenous Australians were kind of embraced by some aspects of mainstream Australia, mostly on their own terms. Probably for the first time in 20-25 years. Since '67 and Wave Hill.

Australia is progressing, its just slow and (less than) half the country is kicking and screaming while the rest drag them onward.
 

Ben The Donkey

Team Captain
Aug 18, 2019
354
437
AFL Club
Fremantle
Alternatively, lead with your chin out, and cop the blow full in your face if you're wrong.

And I do know more than a little about historical events and motivations; enough at least to be able to confront when I'm incorrect. Each time I'm wrong, I learn more. So, perhaps you could reconsider your attitude, hmm?
Those two statements seem a little contradictory in this instance.

For the first, it seems you actually aren't really capable of copping much, considering it was a fairly tame rebuke, and for the second, the evidence would suggest you don't know much about them. You tend more toward applying moral relativism and revisionist statements supporting your own viewpoints without doing any research first.

Given what I've seen you dish out against other posters in other threads from time to time, I'd suggest you take your own advice.
 

Ben The Donkey

Team Captain
Aug 18, 2019
354
437
AFL Club
Fremantle
The one and ONLY way to view life.

It's the concession that's difficult for some, and the ultimate self slap is that they do not progress due to their close-mindedness.

I have met very few brilliant people who had highly developed ego's.
The one and ONLY (in caps, no less) way to view life?

I've met more brilliant people with huge egos than without, and of those seemingly without, usually they have something to gain from it in a social setting. Displaying self-effacement in public is almost mandatory in the current environment, without risk of censure from some quarters.
Would you consider, for the sake of example, Thomas Sowell to have an ego?
 

Gethelred

Brownlow Medallist
May 1, 2016
19,157
39,906
AFL Club
Carlton
Those two statements seem a little contradictory in this instance.

For the first, it seems you actually aren't really capable of copping much, considering it was a fairly tame rebuke, and for the second, the evidence would suggest you don't know much about them. You tend more toward applying moral relativism and revisionist statements supporting your own viewpoints without doing any research first.

Given what I've seen you dish out against other posters in other threads from time to time, I'd suggest you take your own advice.
I think the idea is, if I'm wrong I really don't mind being proven so. And this place has a particular tone to discussions on here that compells one towards certainty.

What I am asking you to reconsider is the idea that - just maybe - ascribing notion or motive behind a poster's words is perhaps not the best way to confront them on this forum. We are all only the words we put on the page.
 

Ben The Donkey

Team Captain
Aug 18, 2019
354
437
AFL Club
Fremantle
I think the idea is, if I'm wrong I really don't mind being proven so. And this place has a particular tone to discussions on here that compells one towards certainty.

What I am asking you to reconsider is the idea that - just maybe - ascribing notion or motive behind a poster's words is perhaps not the best way to confront them on this forum. We are all only the words we put on the page.
Haha. That third sentence in particular seems to be something you apply somewhat selectively.
You think my opinion of you was garnered from a single post?
 

Gethelred

Brownlow Medallist
May 1, 2016
19,157
39,906
AFL Club
Carlton
Haha. That third sentence in particular seems to be something you apply somewhat selectively.
You think my opinion of you was garnered from a single post?
Not at all. You seem to have followed me with interest.

What I think is, if you're looking to call someone out, you'd best look elsewhere, because I really don't care about being wrong other than to fix it. Ignorance only lasts if one clings to it.
 

SaltPeter

"I’m a professional bullshitter"
Jan 6, 2018
10,660
12,183
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
Norwood
I'm curious to know if any if of the Aboriginal groups seeking change have publicly suggested alternative dates that they'd endorse?

Also curious to know, in the event the government chose to change the date who within the Aboriginal communities they'd consult?

Any ideas?
 

Carringbush2010

Brownlow Medallist
Jun 6, 2016
13,301
8,118
Perth
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
Pines Football Club
So you're claiming that all this stuff is about changing one national day and then it all stops? Seriously?

.........and by christ, how on earth is it "offensive"?!

Can EVERYTHING ON EARTH that you don't agree with now be ratified under the term OFFENSIVE?!

Can you understand how ridiculous this makes any discourse whatsoever?



I never stated it was going to happen, I stated that it was a genuine agenda of the radicals that stoke this fire, and that is a certified fact.
Firstly, I never mentioned anything about offensive in the posts you replied to. Dunno what you're going on about here.

Secondly, your previous posts gave me the impression that this IS going to happen - I found that surprising.

Thirdly, ' I stated that it was a genuine agenda of the radicals that stoke this fire, and that is a certified fact.' No sh1t Sherlock, you and I and everyone's dog know there's an agenda going on here (regardless of the denial), but saying 'it's one step to the next' (your assertion) is of course going to give the impression you actually think it's a slippery slope end game.

Lastly I never mentioned that everything is all kumbaya and the sh*t stops if the date changed, I just challenged what I thought was your assertion.

Think we just got our wires crossed mate.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Carringbush2010

Brownlow Medallist
Jun 6, 2016
13,301
8,118
Perth
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
Pines Football Club
You should always ask posters what percentage "aboriginal" they are, then ask them how much responsibility they take for this.

It's a bullshit deflection.
I find that sort of, 'no ifs buts or maybes, you're white and guilty, blackfella is completely innocent regardless what blackfella does' attitude very dangerous.

That's the impression I got from Ferball anyway. Been put on ignore.
 

Chief

Chugging Adrenochrome
Dec 1, 1999
102,370
81,536
Gates' Payroll
AFL Club
Carlton
I'm curious to know if any if of the Aboriginal groups seeking change have publicly suggested alternative dates that they'd endorse?

Also curious to know, in the event the government chose to change the date who within the Aboriginal communities they'd consult?

Any ideas?
Finding a new day to celebrate
Suggestions for a replacement day for Australia Day are as numerous as there are opinions. Here is a collection of suggestions I came across (tell me if you know about another):

  • 1 January. The anniversary of the day Australia technically came into being — the Federation of Australia on 1 January 1901.
  • 18 January. The Supply was the first of three ships of the First Fleet to reach Botany Bay on 18 January 1788.
  • Monday closest to 26 January. As early as 1930 the Australian Natives Association (made up by white Australian men) campaigned to make the Monday closest to January 26 a public holiday for Australia Day. [31]
  • Last Friday of January. This way the date is not tied to any historical date, no fixed date, it marks the end of the long summer holidays and guarantees a long summer weekend.
  • 28 January. When Western Australia’s Fremantle Council decided to cancel its Australia Day event in 2017 they held it two days later.
  • 13 February. On 13 February 2008 the government apologised to the Stolen Generations.
  • 2 March. On this day in 1986 prime minister Bob Hawke and Queen Elizabeth signed the Australia Act 1986 which made Australia a fully independent and sovereign nation. It came into effect the following day.
  • 20 March. On 20 March 1913 Canberra was declared as Australia's capital.
  • 11 April. While over several decades many racist elements of the White Australia act were repealed, it wasn't until 11 April 1973 that Gough Whitlam's government finally abolished all notes of racism. [32]
  • 19 April. 'Advance Australia Fair' was proclaimed as Australia's National Anthem on 19 April 1984.
  • 25 April – Anzac Day. Some argue that Anzac Day honours our history already and can be renamed to National Day. [33]
  • 8 May. Suggested by Australian comedian Jordan Raskopoulos in a cheeky tweet: "Can we just have Australia Day on May 8? May8? M8! Maaaaaate!" [33]
  • 9 May. This day marks the date of the first meeting of the Commonwealth parliament (1901), on which Australia became a self-governing and independent commonwealth.
  • 27 May. Following one of the few successful referenda on 27 May 1967, Aboriginal people were finally allowed constitutional rights and counted as citizens.
  • 3 June – Mabo Day. On the day the High Court overturned terra nullius and acknowledged native Aboriginal land rights.
  • NAIDOC Week. Some suggest to make one day during NAIDOC Week (the first full week of July) a new public holiday.
  • 30 July. This is the day of the first Australia Day back in 1915.
  • 1 September. First calendar day of spring, which is also called Wattle Day, and Australia's colours, green and gold, come from the wattle.
  • 17 September. On 17 September 1790, Governor Arthur Phillip met with Bennelong and his wife to apologise for abductions Phillip had ordered in order turn his captives into translators. Bennelong accepted the apology, and it became one of the first moments where Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal people came together in a spirit of reconciliation. [34]
  • 1 December. Another cheeky suggestion – 1 December is the first calendar day of summer.
Other suggestions include replacing Queen's Birthday with a new Aboriginal public holiday and letting Aboriginal people decide on the name and occasion.

 

Ben The Donkey

Team Captain
Aug 18, 2019
354
437
AFL Club
Fremantle
Not at all. You seem to have followed me with interest.

What I think is, if you're looking to call someone out, you'd best look elsewhere, because I really don't care about being wrong other than to fix it. Ignorance only lasts if one clings to it.
Um hmm. So now that we've gotten to this stage of the exchange, why don't you go back, have a look at what I wrote, how that one sentence compares with many others on this forum (including yours) and your reaction to it, and then tell me what it is you're really riled up about.
Otherwise, if what you've just said above is how you see yourself, then why are you still here?
 

SaltPeter

"I’m a professional bullshitter"
Jan 6, 2018
10,660
12,183
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
Norwood
Finding a new day to celebrate
Suggestions for a replacement day for Australia Day are as numerous as there are opinions. Here is a collection of suggestions I came across (tell me if you know about another):

  • 1 January. The anniversary of the day Australia technically came into being — the Federation of Australia on 1 January 1901.
  • 18 January. The Supply was the first of three ships of the First Fleet to reach Botany Bay on 18 January 1788.
  • Monday closest to 26 January. As early as 1930 the Australian Natives Association (made up by white Australian men) campaigned to make the Monday closest to January 26 a public holiday for Australia Day. [31]
  • Last Friday of January. This way the date is not tied to any historical date, no fixed date, it marks the end of the long summer holidays and guarantees a long summer weekend.
  • 28 January. When Western Australia’s Fremantle Council decided to cancel its Australia Day event in 2017 they held it two days later.
  • 13 February. On 13 February 2008 the government apologised to the Stolen Generations.
  • 2 March. On this day in 1986 prime minister Bob Hawke and Queen Elizabeth signed the Australia Act 1986 which made Australia a fully independent and sovereign nation. It came into effect the following day.
  • 20 March. On 20 March 1913 Canberra was declared as Australia's capital.
  • 11 April. While over several decades many racist elements of the White Australia act were repealed, it wasn't until 11 April 1973 that Gough Whitlam's government finally abolished all notes of racism. [32]
  • 19 April. 'Advance Australia Fair' was proclaimed as Australia's National Anthem on 19 April 1984.
  • 25 April – Anzac Day. Some argue that Anzac Day honours our history already and can be renamed to National Day. [33]
  • 8 May. Suggested by Australian comedian Jordan Raskopoulos in a cheeky tweet: "Can we just have Australia Day on May 8? May8? M8! Maaaaaate!" [33]
  • 9 May. This day marks the date of the first meeting of the Commonwealth parliament (1901), on which Australia became a self-governing and independent commonwealth.
  • 27 May. Following one of the few successful referenda on 27 May 1967, Aboriginal people were finally allowed constitutional rights and counted as citizens.
  • 3 June – Mabo Day. On the day the High Court overturned terra nullius and acknowledged native Aboriginal land rights.
  • NAIDOC Week. Some suggest to make one day during NAIDOC Week (the first full week of July) a new public holiday.
  • 30 July. This is the day of the first Australia Day back in 1915.
  • 1 September. First calendar day of spring, which is also called Wattle Day, and Australia's colours, green and gold, come from the wattle.
  • 17 September. On 17 September 1790, Governor Arthur Phillip met with Bennelong and his wife to apologise for abductions Phillip had ordered in order turn his captives into translators. Bennelong accepted the apology, and it became one of the first moments where Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal people came together in a spirit of reconciliation. [34]
  • 1 December. Another cheeky suggestion – 1 December is the first calendar day of summer.
Other suggestions include replacing Queen's Birthday with a new Aboriginal public holiday and letting Aboriginal people decide on the name and occasion.

For some reason choosing a date of no significance almost seems the most sensible option, and making it a floating day (Monday) as the holiday

TBH I don't care what day. I'm ok with the change and don't personally celebrate in any particular way. The argument of inclusion seems perfectly reasonable and rational to me.

I'm also not buying into the rhetoric that if we change the date, its the start of some sort of 'domino effect'
 

Gethelred

Brownlow Medallist
May 1, 2016
19,157
39,906
AFL Club
Carlton
Um hmm. So now that we've gotten to this stage of the exchange, why don't you go back, have a look at what I wrote, how that one sentence compares with many others on this forum (including yours) and your reaction to it, and then tell me what it is you're really riled up about.
Otherwise, if what you've just said above is how you see yourself, then why are you still here?
Because you've piqued my interest now.

Why does what I do or say matter to you to this extent, Ben? Think of me often, do you?
 

Ben The Donkey

Team Captain
Aug 18, 2019
354
437
AFL Club
Fremantle
All the time. I jack off dreaming of your knight.

Actually, I threw a dart. Human behaviour is fascinating, and the most interesting are those who wear masks.
Did you do as I said, and re-read what I actually wrote, that one line that got you started, and compare it to everything else you see around here?

What did you find so inherently wrong about telling someone to go check their facts before posting incorrect information?
 

Pessimistic

Make me an Admin!
Sep 13, 2000
82,559
39,329
Melbourne cricket ground. Australia
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Horks
Let’s anchor all the holidays to a weekend, makes a lot of sense. The fixed dates are often historically incorrect

Queens birthday, Christ’s birthday first fleet (as noted they weren’t even the first European arrivals)

Stick ‘Australian’ in front of each one eg ‘Australian christmas’ ‘’australian retailers day’ Australian armed forced day’ ‘australian European day’ ‘Australian indigenous day’ ‘Australian workers day’ ‘Australian monarchists day’ ‘Australian republicans day’ ‘australian footy day’ ‘australian racing day’ ‘australian asian day’ ‘australian Irish day’
‘Australian new year’
13 long weekends...just 39 to go
 

FRUMPY

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 18, 2006
28,883
34,068
Melbourne
AFL Club
Carlton
Yep, should be a day of the week, not a date - no-one wants a public holiday to fall on a wednesday for instance, thats a waste. Pick a week and stick with it - to me February works best, great weather and we dont have a public holiday in Feb.
 

Roby

Norm Smith Medallist
Jul 27, 2008
9,730
7,516
Melbourne
AFL Club
Hawthorn
I like this idea.
Why shouldn't we prop up indigenous culture and do it on May 27th?

Also, if people are concerned about the possibility that indigenous people don't necessarily want to all celebrate in unity or feel marginilised because of it, my proposal would then to allow an additional exclusive public holiday for each country or people.
 

Chief

Chugging Adrenochrome
Dec 1, 1999
102,370
81,536
Gates' Payroll
AFL Club
Carlton
For some reason choosing a date of no significance almost seems the most sensible option, and making it a floating day (Monday) as the holiday

TBH I don't care what day. I'm ok with the change and don't personally celebrate in any particular way. The argument of inclusion seems perfectly reasonable and rational to me.

I'm also not buying into the rhetoric that if we change the date, its the start of some sort of 'domino effect'
Make a new day and give it our own significance. Nothing wrong with that, if people truly want a day to celebrate the good things about the country as they are today.
 

ferball

Premium Platinum
Jul 24, 2015
27,719
52,778
AFL Club
North Melbourne
I find that sort of, 'no ifs buts or maybes, you're white and guilty, blackfella is completely innocent regardless what blackfella does' attitude very dangerous.

That's the impression I got from Ferball anyway. Been put on ignore.
Ha. You put people on ignore cos you get the wrong impression from what they say.

Not that you'll see this but thanks for the laugh.
 

Remove this Banner Ad

Remove this Banner Ad