australian football, rugby, foundations and Codification

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RedV3x

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"Rugby was not a game for us, we wanted a winter pastime but men could be harmed if thrown on the ground so we thought differently."
Yes, tackling and rugby rules were out, but we still don't know exactly what was in.
It was possible to take possession of the ball unless it was on the ground.
 

TWLS

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I remember reading about the little kick.
Around the late 1800s, pre-VFL, there must have been a time when a kick didn't have to travel any distance to be called a mark, so there was a period where players would do tiny kicks to each other and claim the mark.
It got so bad, one article of the period said that some marks were paid with the ball barely touching the boot of the original kicker.
Yes the above is what I came across in the match reports.
A general question -
At the initial 1859 Rules Meeting held at the pub it is said copies of various rule sets were on the table.
A look at Wiki on the rule sets in 1859 produced the following references, however the person/s who wrote that Wiki did some homework/guesswork it appears and we have advantage at this time of only focussing on what was likely available in Melbourne in 1859. On that point some members of the meeting had been in England prior to 1859 and likely brought copies back.
1839 - Cambridge - Very early basic
1843- Eton -Dribbling
1845 - Rugby -Carrying the ball.
1847 -Harrow - Dribbling
1848 - Cambridge Uni -Dribbling
1858 -Sheffield Football Club -Dribbling.
1859 - The meeting in Melbourne
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So from the above who are the likely Starters for 1859 and the rules above were also in a constant state of flux/updates
We do not know if Wills brought back additional current notes on Rugby and the other rule sets- Likely that he did.
 
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Gigantor

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Yes the above is what I came across in the match reports.
A general question -
At the initial 1859 Rules Meeting held at the pub it is said copies of various rule sets were on the table.
A look at Wiki on the rule sets in 1859 produced the following references, however the person/s who wrote that Wiki did some homework/guesswork it appears and we have advantage at this time of only focussing on what was likely available in Melbourne in 1859. On that point some members of the meeting had been in England prior to 1859 and likely brought copies back.
1839 - Cambridge - Very early basic
1843- Eton -Dribbling
1845 - Rugby -Carrying the ball.
1847 -Harrow - Dribbling
1848 - Cambridge Uni -Dribbling
1858 -Sheffield Football Club -Dribbling.
1859 - The meeting in Melbourne
------------------------------------------------------
So from the above who are the likely Starters for 1859 and the rules above were also in a constant state of flux/updates
We do not know if Wills brought back additional current notes on Rugby and the other rule sets- Likely that he did.
They clearly knew at least one other game of football.
But further to that, they, and, those who would play in 1858-59 knew forms of folk football.
They agreed 10 very basic rules in 1859, some are relatively unique, others are from pre-existing games.
 

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RedV3x

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1839 - Cambridge - Very early basic
1843- Eton -Dribbling
1845 - Rugby -Carrying the ball.
1847 -Harrow - Dribbling
1848 - Cambridge Uni -Dribbling
1858 -Sheffield Football Club -Dribbling.
1859 - The meeting in Melbourne
This tells us almost nothing. The first ten colonial rules don't line up with anything.
 

RedV3x

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They agreed 10 very basic rules in 1859, some are relatively unique, others are from pre-existing games.
Only these laws give any insight to the playing of the game.

III. A Goal must be kicked fairly between the posts, without touching either of them, or a portion of the person of any player on either side.

VI. Any player catching the ball "directly" from the foot may call "mark". He then has a free kick; no player from the opposite side being allowed to come "inside" the spot marked.
VII. Tripping and pushing are both allowed (but no hacking) when any player is in rapid motion or in possession of the ball, except in the case provided for in Rule 6.
VIII. The ball may be taken in hand "only" when caught from the foot, or on the hop. In "no case" shall it be "lifted" from the ground.

X. The ball, while in play, may under no circumstances be thrown.

III. Kicking the ball between two posts is almost UNIVERSAL. Not being touched could be unique and could have implications.
VI. The "fair catch" was also almost universal.
VII. Tripping, pushing and hacking are common but holding and tackling aren't specifically mentioned though outlawed by implication.
VIII.Reasonably common but no mention as to what you could do when you gained possession of the ball.
X. This is a clear rule against rugby but no specific mention of offside is made.

Conclusion
1. From the rules there is no indication as to how the game should be played .i.e. the design of the game is unknown.
2. The committee didn't accept any set of established rules.
3. Everything is open to conjecture especially Gaelic Football and Marngrook since there were no written rules at the time.
 

TWLS

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This tells us almost nothing. The first ten colonial rules don't line up with anything.
Well we dont know what the copies of rules were on the table - They would have read them and made decisions possibly - So everybody thinks they ignored them - Does not make sense. Wills was exposed to RUGBY as it was and what did the other guys play who had been in England. Did they only play tiddleywinks.
I will not have it that they ignored the rule sets on the table.
The above info clearly shows the majority of poms prefered to kick the ball along the ground and dare I say it did not like full body contact.
 

RedV3x

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Well we dont know what the copies of rules were on the table .
Well, somebody else actually posted to the contrary.

They would have read them and made decisions possibly
They would have most probably been referenced and discussed.

So everybody thinks they ignored them .
There is reference to Tom Will's suggestions being ignored.

Wills was exposed to RUGBY.
And the rules of rugby are clearly rejected.

I will not have it that they ignored the rule sets on the table.
Well you have to deal with the facts and the facts are clearly recorded in the first 10 rules of colonial football.
The first 10 rules of colonial football tell us little about the design of the new game and the influences on the game.
 

TWLS

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Well, somebody else actually posted to the contrary.



They would have most probably been referenced and discussed.



There is reference to Tom Will's suggestions being ignored.



And the rules of rugby are clearly rejected.



Well you have to deal with the facts and the facts are clearly recorded in the first 10 rules of colonial football.
The first 10 rules of colonial football tell us little about the design of the new game and the influences on the game.
Well I prefer this extract which makes sense considering some at the meeting played foot-ball while they were there.
"Young men attempted variations of what they knew from their time in English schools, saw its strengths and weaknesses and constantly refined what was to become soon enough a game of our own." The 1859 rules meeting was the first known written result of those experiences and they came up with something that worked which was a new way of moving the ball down the ground as it turned out.
The Geelong Rule set was very similar to the Melbourne one so the thinking was the same down there.
The 2018 Grand Final was won by a team that played in the last few minutes the method that Tom Wills evoked in the 1860`s. Kick and Mark etc etc - He would have been very proud.
There would have been other meetings, private discussions before the May 1859 meeting- Just because they are not recorded does not mean they did not happen.
 

RedV3x

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The 1859 rules meeting was the first known written result of those experiences and they came up with something that worked which was a new way of moving the ball down the ground as it turned out.
Is that your statement or a quotation ?
 

Fire

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So we agree Rugby being played in non English speaking places in nothing to do with the British empire.
Lets not forget that Australian football is a result of plagiarism of 3 sports. Rugby,Gaelic football played on a cricket oval.
2 very English and 1 very Irish. Forget the myth that the local denizens were playing Australia football when the first fleet arrived, it just that a myth
I believe there's no Gaelic ties at all right?

My understanding was that Willis had only played rugby and cricket.
 

RedV3x

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I believe there's no Gaelic ties at all right?
There were a lot of Irish people in the goldfields and living in Melbourne at the time.
It has been recorded that Irish Football was played at the time.
Football was originally developed by teachers and teachers would have drawn upon their knowledge
so it it is quite conceivable that Irish Football did influence the colonial game.

My understanding was that Willis had only played rugby and cricket.
It is recorded that that some aborigines said that they played Marngrook with Tom Wills
so it it is quite conceivable that Marngrook did influence the colonial game.
Tom Wills was only part of a team that came up with the original rules of football in Australia.
What we know for sure is that they didn't want rugby rules and this is borne out in the original rules
which opposed the idea of rugby and a statement saying they didn't want rugby rules.
 

NoobPie

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I believe there's no Gaelic ties at all right?

My understanding was that Willis had only played rugby and cricket.

Aussie in exile is just a sad League troll with a debilitating jealous fixation with our National game. If you are religious, pray for him, but otherwise no point engaging him expecting sane, unfevered discourse
 

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