Australian Vaccine Rollout

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Northalives

Norm Smith Medallist
Jun 12, 2005
7,911
9,010
Australia
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
Other Teams
PORT ADELAIDE
So we stay locked up until it goes away?

How do you avoid having to live with covid ?
no no no no, please don't misunderstand. What I am saying is that we must not just say and behave like it has gone away because that way, madness lies.

We must look at he reality of this insidious disease and put in place measures that will protect our citizens as well as allow us to live a life. It is a balancing act which needs intelligence and foresight, not spin and "hope".

We are now slowly getting the population vaccinated although we still have not completely vaccinated those who look after the frail and elderly and neither all the nurses and other health staff who work in our hospitals. Unfortunately, even vaccinations are being used politically by all manner of people to progress their agendas and the Prime Minister, instead of intervening and being over-the-top scathing at the "freedom" morons and the conspiracy dick heads, he has just gone AWOL!

We need to use the advantages living in this country affords us to their maximum. We are an Island nation and to paraphrase an ex Prime Minister, "We decide who comes into this country and in what circumstance.". What this means is that you just don't open international borders, you just don't let people wander about the country if they are carriers, it means that you just don't let things rip and "hope", everything will be fine.

Yesterday, we had 1,683 new cases and 11 deaths: that brings the number of deaths to 1,653 deaths thus far. This is what's happenning in Australia and these charts should set alarm bells ringing but unfortunately, it seems that we have become desensitised to the deaths and the ilnesses. We will get hit fair and square in the face with all of this when our hospitals are overflowing and medical professionals will have to decide who lives and who dies due to the lack of ICU places and resources and not just for covid patients.

Screen Shot 2021-10-27 at 1.33.05 am.png


Screen Shot 2021-10-27 at 1.33.57 am.png


We have now reached the death levels when we took all of this very seriously in August of last year and now that we are getting ready for full blown let 'er rip, we are going to surpass those levels easily - the number of daily cases are already dwarfing those of that period.

These are real people and we just can't pretend that nothing untoward is happening and that everything's going to be alright. If we are to let people into Australia, then we need to quarantine them for 21 days at specially built quarantine centers but before that, we need to get this rampaging disease under control in this country first before we lose total control.

We have now had over a year's experience of this disease and we have learnt many things about it's behaviour and most importantly, the behaviours that work and don't work in controlling the disease. The two we know definitely don't work is let 'er rip and leaky, backyard quarantine. The things we know that definitely do work, is social distancing and the wearing of masks in public and most importantly, Identification (through testing), Separation (through check ins) and Isolation in appropriate facilities - not in backyard quarantine sites.

The advent of vaccines were critical in alleviating the worst of the symptoms of Covid and reducing the number of deaths due to the easier management and treatment of those who contracted the disease. The vaccines are not and should never have been marketed as a magic bullet to get us back to normality - they are not.

What we need is clear and precise information of how we should and should not behave, on what we should and should not do. Not the cycle of spin, unclear and confusing messaging which has now all been supplanted by, "we're free!", a most negligent and dangerous espousal. The negligence and half baked measures of the past are going to impact us horrifically within the next two to three months so it is with great urgency, that all the shit of the past is now swept away and strong forceful leadership and measures are put in place.

The absolute and utter condemnation of those who think that Covid is bullshit, who reckon that vacinnes are dangerous, who think that Government intervention in times of crisis is taking away ones freedom, they need to be shamed and condemned and marginalised by the Prime Minister. Those who refuse to be vaccinated whilst employed in the hospital and caring sector, those who are in public contact everyday whether they are shop assistants, delivery drivers, couriers, truck drivers etc etc all of these people MUST be fully vaccinated and prove that they have been or they cannot work in those fields and they will be given the dole immediately.

The right vaccines should be rolled out to all High Schools around Australia and be made mandatory just as the triple antigen and Salk vaccines were in primary schools years ago. People who refuse to have their children vaccinated, those children will not be allowed to attend school.

Mandatory covid testing should be carried out systematically throughout every suburb and township to ascertain if anyone is "carrying" and these people should be confined to their premises until the results are known and those refusing to be tested should be fined and if they refuse the fine, then they should be given suspended sentences and a criminal conviction recorded against their name. This exercise will be very expensive and a great deal of co-ordination will be required but because of the completely useless and inept response by the Federal Government in the past, this is now imperative to get us back into a position where we are in control and not the pathogen. Expensive? Morrison has splurged a trillion dollars thus far and when the shit really hits the fan when this thing runs rampant again, it will cost us massive amounts once again.

Once we have Identified, Separated and Isolated those who are infected, every human being in Australia will be free to go about their business but within the confines of appropriate behaviour, that is, mandatory wearing of masks in public places, social distancing including public transport, mandatory sign in at restaurants, bars, food outlets, supermarkets etc etc.

When we have got on top of it again and remember, we were within a month or so of eradicating this thing until the bullshit quarantine system failed and then the failure of NSW to move quickly plunged us back into lockdowns and misery, illness and deaths.

Once we have got on top of it and we are moving freely within our own country with all the appropriate measures in place and followed diligently, then we worry about bringing in people from overseas. If prospective visitors/students wish to enter the country, then they must have isolated for 14 days in an accredited facility in an accredited country and test negative at the end of their isolation prior to boarding a plane and upon arrival, they must be taken to a secure facility to be tested again and when they test negative, then they can get on with their visiting/study whilst observing the rule and regulations. Those who cannot or do not wish to isolate before they come to Australia, must be quarantined at specific quarantine centers out of built up areas for twenty on days and they must subsidise their stay.

Sounds draconian, sounds way out and heavy; expensive even?, well this is the world we now live in and if we want freedom of movement, freedom to conduct business and make as sure as possible that our elderly, our friends and loved ones, our children don't suffer and/or die needlessly and not just from covid but from other medical issues, then we must adapt and adopt things that preserves life first and foremost and provides a stable and sure environment with in which to pursue these ideals. The expense should be seen as an investment, not as money thrown away. We will recoup this amount no fear, and our businesses, our hospitals and the health of our nation will prosper and live in a world with covid.

Our hospitals will NOT cope with what will happen within six months if we continue on this path. If we want to live in a covid world, than this is the only way to do so. When Morrison and the money men say "living with covid" to start living again, what they are actually saying, whether intentionally or not, is "dying with Covid" to start living again as if death and suffering is collateral damage in the pursuit of money and being re-elected. I really don't think that most intelligent, compassionate human beings want this scenario, that is, "dying with covid so we can live".

Apologies for the long winded answer but to do justice to your question, "How do you avoid having to live with covid ?", the answer had to be detailed.
 

Northalives

Norm Smith Medallist
Jun 12, 2005
7,911
9,010
Australia
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
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PORT ADELAIDE
It's because it turns it into an emotive discussion. Everyone can think of far less than the 12,000 number I used - they don't know that many, literally everyone they know dying - it's horrible to think of.

It's the same argument used against people who question speed camera locations and motivations, particularly when they are used more on high traffic areas than on known black spot areas. The goal is zero deaths right? You're a monster if you think there is a number of deaths that is acceptable.
... Then they quote road toll figures that include suicides as though any road condition was going to prevent that.

The challenge of how many lives are acceptable to lose is a simple one to end the discussion but it's also a clinical reality of human existence.

We need everyone getting down the gym and hitting the running track, free physio for all, I'll put up a couch to 5k thread and people can go at their pace.

Our biggest risk of covid is that so many of us are dreadfully out of shape.
Sorry Taylor, "Our biggest risk of covid is that so many of us are dreadfully out of shape." is not correct in the slightest. Covid does not discriminate between fit or unfit people. It maims, hurts and kills anyone regardless of age and health.

A very true statement though is, Our biggest risk of dying from something other than covid, is that so many of us are dreadfully out of shape.

Don't fall for or promote things that diminish the dreadful pathogen known as COVID-19. It has killed far more people than Ebola and is far more dangerous than Ebola even though Ebola kills between 50% and 90% of those infected whereas COVID-19 kills about 1.2% to 3%, sometimes more, of those that are infected. Unlike Ebola, which makes you bed ridden instantly and you therefore can't spread the disease, COVID-19 doesn't really want to kill it's host, it wants the host to stay alive and pass it on to others.

This is what makes SARS-CoV-2 so insidious and impossible to eradicate given how we have tackled it. It loves capitalism! and the longer it takes for us to suspend Capitalism for a while world wide to contain and eradicate it, the more it will kill and the longer capitalism will have to be halted to halt SARS-CoV-2.
 

Northalives

Norm Smith Medallist
Jun 12, 2005
7,911
9,010
Australia
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Port Adelaide
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PORT ADELAIDE
Lol would you rather they make up a number instead of adhering to what the science is showing us?
No, he wants to know how many people you and other morally questionable people would accept as a reasonable number of deaths for economic activity to prosper? In other words, how many people should we sacrifice for the bean counters to be happy? 1, 100, 1,000, 10,000? These are human beings you know? Would you show us the way and sacrifice your Mum and Dad, your sons and daughters so people can make money? The "Science", according to you, should be followed and the science says people will die if we let 'er rip.

Don't hide behind science when it suits you, that's a Morrison, favourite.

Science tells us that Australia has the largest incidence of melanomas in the world. 2 out of every 3 people in Australia will be diagnosed with skin cancer by the age of seventy and over 2,000 of these people will die because of it. With your cockamamy reasoning, people who work in the sun shouldn't give a rats arse about trying to protect themselves from skin cancer because around 15,500,000 of the population gets it by the time they are seventy and "only", 2,000 of these people die - we should adhere to the science and not worry about the fact that these are human beings we are talking about.

It costs a lot of money to keep advertising the need to do the right things and try to not expose oneself needlessly to the sun and to getting skin cancer so here's a question for you? The science has told us everything we need to know about skin cancer, so how many more people do you reckon would be OK to die by withdrawing the funding for skin cancer awareness? 1, 100, 1,000, 10,000. Should we let the scientists tell us how many would die under this scenario and then just "adhere to the science"?

You and many others don't seem to understand that modelling relies on inputs to come up with the "model". Therefore, if you ask a scientists what will happen if you do this or that, they will tell you that this will happen. So the question to you is perfectly legitimate because if you gave an answer, say 20 deaths, then a scientist will give you circumstances as near as possible needed so you can come up with 20 deaths.

Don't hide behind science when it suits you and certainly don't try to use it to excuse the number of deaths/sacrifices that will occur to get economic activity going - it's gutless! The Doherty Institute say that that there will be 2,000 deaths after 6 months by the "model" that has been accepted by Morrison and after six months the death rate will increase every month.

For your information, we have reached the average daily death rate of about 11 already and we haven't even "cut the ribbons" yet! Maybe you should just say that 11 sacrifices a day are OK you.
 

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Northalives

Norm Smith Medallist
Jun 12, 2005
7,911
9,010
Australia
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
Other Teams
PORT ADELAIDE
That's an interesting thing to say. When does the science suit me, Northalives?
your post #2,820: "Lol would you rather they make up a number instead of adhering to what the science is showing us?"

I also wrote at length in post #2828 as to why I believe you hide behind the science because it suits you.

If you want further clarification: The science suits you because you can refer to it and that, in your estimation, lets you off the hook in not having to answer the perfectly legitimate question posed to you, and to others for that matter, ie. what number of deaths/sacrifices are you willing to accept in order to increase economic activity ?
 

Northalives

Norm Smith Medallist
Jun 12, 2005
7,911
9,010
Australia
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
Other Teams
PORT ADELAIDE
Those who proclaimed vaccination while dropping or reducing other measures was the ultimate fix must feel a little uncomfortable.


They may feel uncomfortable but nowhere near as uncomfortable than those poor sods who are contracting this controllable disease and those who've had family and friends die.
 

Pessimistic

Make me an Admin!
Sep 13, 2000
85,791
42,092
Melbourne cricket ground. Australia
AFL Club
Hawthorn
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Horks
no no no no, please don't misunderstand. What I am saying is that we must not just say and behave like it has gone away because that way, madness lies.

We must look at he reality of this insidious disease and put in place measures that will protect our citizens as well as allow us to live a life. It is a balancing act which needs intelligence and foresight, not spin and "hope".

We are now slowly getting the population vaccinated although we still have not completely vaccinated those who look after the frail and elderly and neither all the nurses and other health staff who work in our hospitals. Unfortunately, even vaccinations are being used politically by all manner of people to progress their agendas and the Prime Minister, instead of intervening and being over-the-top scathing at the "freedom" morons and the conspiracy dick heads, he has just gone AWOL!

We need to use the advantages living in this country affords us to their maximum. We are an Island nation and to paraphrase an ex Prime Minister, "We decide who comes into this country and in what circumstance.". What this means is that you just don't open international borders, you just don't let people wander about the country if they are carriers, it means that you just don't let things rip and "hope", everything will be fine.

Yesterday, we had 1,683 new cases and 11 deaths: that brings the number of deaths to 1,653 deaths thus far. This is what's happenning in Australia and these charts should set alarm bells ringing but unfortunately, it seems that we have become desensitised to the deaths and the ilnesses. We will get hit fair and square in the face with all of this when our hospitals are overflowing and medical professionals will have to decide who lives and who dies due to the lack of ICU places and resources and not just for covid patients.

View attachment 1268547

View attachment 1268548

We have now reached the death levels when we took all of this very seriously in August of last year and now that we are getting ready for full blown let 'er rip, we are going to surpass those levels easily - the number of daily cases are already dwarfing those of that period.

These are real people and we just can't pretend that nothing untoward is happening and that everything's going to be alright. If we are to let people into Australia, then we need to quarantine them for 21 days at specially built quarantine centers but before that, we need to get this rampaging disease under control in this country first before we lose total control.

We have now had over a year's experience of this disease and we have learnt many things about it's behaviour and most importantly, the behaviours that work and don't work in controlling the disease. The two we know definitely don't work is let 'er rip and leaky, backyard quarantine. The things we know that definitely do work, is social distancing and the wearing of masks in public and most importantly, Identification (through testing), Separation (through check ins) and Isolation in appropriate facilities - not in backyard quarantine sites.

The advent of vaccines were critical in alleviating the worst of the symptoms of Covid and reducing the number of deaths due to the easier management and treatment of those who contracted the disease. The vaccines are not and should never have been marketed as a magic bullet to get us back to normality - they are not.

What we need is clear and precise information of how we should and should not behave, on what we should and should not do. Not the cycle of spin, unclear and confusing messaging which has now all been supplanted by, "we're free!", a most negligent and dangerous espousal. The negligence and half baked measures of the past are going to impact us horrifically within the next two to three months so it is with great urgency, that all the sh*t of the past is now swept away and strong forceful leadership and measures are put in place.

The absolute and utter condemnation of those who think that Covid is bullshit, who reckon that vacinnes are dangerous, who think that Government intervention in times of crisis is taking away ones freedom, they need to be shamed and condemned and marginalised by the Prime Minister. Those who refuse to be vaccinated whilst employed in the hospital and caring sector, those who are in public contact everyday whether they are shop assistants, delivery drivers, couriers, truck drivers etc etc all of these people MUST be fully vaccinated and prove that they have been or they cannot work in those fields and they will be given the dole immediately.

The right vaccines should be rolled out to all High Schools around Australia and be made mandatory just as the triple antigen and Salk vaccines were in primary schools years ago. People who refuse to have their children vaccinated, those children will not be allowed to attend school.

Mandatory covid testing should be carried out systematically throughout every suburb and township to ascertain if anyone is "carrying" and these people should be confined to their premises until the results are known and those refusing to be tested should be fined and if they refuse the fine, then they should be given suspended sentences and a criminal conviction recorded against their name. This exercise will be very expensive and a great deal of co-ordination will be required but because of the completely useless and inept response by the Federal Government in the past, this is now imperative to get us back into a position where we are in control and not the pathogen. Expensive? Morrison has splurged a trillion dollars thus far and when the sh*t really hits the fan when this thing runs rampant again, it will cost us massive amounts once again.

Once we have Identified, Separated and Isolated those who are infected, every human being in Australia will be free to go about their business but within the confines of appropriate behaviour, that is, mandatory wearing of masks in public places, social distancing including public transport, mandatory sign in at restaurants, bars, food outlets, supermarkets etc etc.

When we have got on top of it again and remember, we were within a month or so of eradicating this thing until the bullshit quarantine system failed and then the failure of NSW to move quickly plunged us back into lockdowns and misery, illness and deaths.

Once we have got on top of it and we are moving freely within our own country with all the appropriate measures in place and followed diligently, then we worry about bringing in people from overseas. If prospective visitors/students wish to enter the country, then they must have isolated for 14 days in an accredited facility in an accredited country and test negative at the end of their isolation prior to boarding a plane and upon arrival, they must be taken to a secure facility to be tested again and when they test negative, then they can get on with their visiting/study whilst observing the rule and regulations. Those who cannot or do not wish to isolate before they come to Australia, must be quarantined at specific quarantine centers out of built up areas for twenty on days and they must subsidise their stay.

Sounds draconian, sounds way out and heavy; expensive even?, well this is the world we now live in and if we want freedom of movement, freedom to conduct business and make as sure as possible that our elderly, our friends and loved ones, our children don't suffer and/or die needlessly and not just from covid but from other medical issues, then we must adapt and adopt things that preserves life first and foremost and provides a stable and sure environment with in which to pursue these ideals. The expense should be seen as an investment, not as money thrown away. We will recoup this amount no fear, and our businesses, our hospitals and the health of our nation will prosper and live in a world with covid.

Our hospitals will NOT cope with what will happen within six months if we continue on this path. If we want to live in a covid world, than this is the only way to do so. When Morrison and the money men say "living with covid" to start living again, what they are actually saying, whether intentionally or not, is "dying with Covid" to start living again as if death and suffering is collateral damage in the pursuit of money and being re-elected. I really don't think that most intelligent, compassionate human beings want this scenario, that is, "dying with covid so we can live".

Apologies for the long winded answer but to do justice to your question, "How do you avoid having to live with covid ?", the answer had to be detailed.

I agree that we shouldn’t be restricting those with low chance of passing on infection more in response to irresponsible people not giving a rats, who continue to not give a rats about increased restrictions

but inbound travellers will be checked and sorted in much the way you suggest. So why restrict their arrival?
 

Christopher Buttersnip

Beware of the Drop Bears
Oct 28, 2020
4,020
10,234
AFL Club
Melbourne
This! In referring to "individual actions" I suggest the Prof is referencing social distancing, masks in certain circumstances, hand washing et al. Vaccines, including boosters, are significant but not the be-all-and-end-all the rapacious, economy first, welfare last reactionaries want us to swallow.

 

Evolved1

Brownlow Medallist
Jun 14, 2013
11,392
13,920
The lockdown state
AFL Club
Essendon
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Phil Ivey
People who want to let it rip have repeatedly been asked in this and associated threads how many deaths they are prepared to accept.

Not a single one has had the guts to give a figure, to put up or shut up.

Not one.
I've put figures up many times.

If you tell me the cost in terms of normal lifestyle and liberties, I'll tell you the deaths I'm willing to accept as a trade off.
 

Christopher Buttersnip

Beware of the Drop Bears
Oct 28, 2020
4,020
10,234
AFL Club
Melbourne
Let me offer a hand here FredLeDeux. No doubt you'll have much more to offer.

When I posed the question of what level of mortality, hospitalisation, infections, and disability would be acceptable for those taking the commerce first position when opening under the Covid normal banner the above poster's response was to run using "straw man" as his deflection. I know, risible.

This has been followed by a series of posts essentially suggesting the elderly are collateral damage as we now need to place our main focus on the young. Even putting that his father agrees with this callousness. What a family!

Interestingly, he now says he's "put up" mortality and disability figures "many times" without any links then contradicts himself (with another digression) by placing the reverse onus in which you have to produce data in order to get him out of the hole he's dug

It's getting harder by the day for these ideologically driven peeps as sadly there are growing numbers of the young now also being afflicted by this curse.

Just as not one of the ideologically driven "it's all about the economy" crew have yet to answer the specific question Dr. Richard Horton, Editor-in-Chief of The Lancet put on this matter and which I've repeated many times, neither has anyone here.

f8S32No.jpg
 

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Evolved1

Brownlow Medallist
Jun 14, 2013
11,392
13,920
The lockdown state
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Essendon
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Phil Ivey
Once again whenever your lies and half-truths are challenged you resort to a trumpery and immature insults. Stick to your nugatory posts and continue to squib it when challenged.
You've been called out before for misrepresenting viewpoints of myself and other posters, including one of your fellow lefties. You call for me to produce evidence, yet haven't shown any for your own claims. That's called hypocrisy mate.

Your so called challenges shall be treated with more respect if or when you show the capacity to actually challenge viewpoints with intellectual honesty and evidence. Until then, they're really not worth the time or effort.

On the subject of immature insults, where does "trumpery" fit into your narrative?
 

Christopher Buttersnip

Beware of the Drop Bears
Oct 28, 2020
4,020
10,234
AFL Club
Melbourne
You've been called out before for misrepresenting viewpoints of myself and other posters, including one of your fellow lefties. You call for me to produce evidence, yet haven't shown any for your own claims. That's called hypocrisy mate.

Your so called challenges shall be treated with more respect if or when you show the capacity to actually challenge viewpoints with intellectual honesty and evidence. Until then, they're really not worth the time or effort.

On the subject of immature insults, where does "trumpery" fit into your narrative?
Just another vacuous post replete with unsupported generalisations about misrepresentation. You continue to make baseless generalisations and don't respond to specifics when challenged. You said in a post a few back in response to one by FredLeDeux that you had "many times" given the figures for possible mortality and disability. I asked you to link to the "many times" only to get insults and nugatory commentary followed by this waffle. No wonder FredLeDeux gives you a wide berth. A sound approach.
 

Christopher Buttersnip

Beware of the Drop Bears
Oct 28, 2020
4,020
10,234
AFL Club
Melbourne
OK! For the sensible posters. The Australia Institute provides some modelling on the possible health and welfare effects of Covid normal.

The Australian Institute identifies in its modelling that by early 2022 Australia will have 40,000 cases a day, with up to 760 deaths in the first six months of reopening

 

Deliverance

Brownlow Medallist
Jun 19, 2011
17,403
29,132
MCG
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Maybe we could ask covid not to live with us. 😆

Like it or not, it's endemic. Pubs are open, gyms are open, schools back, sports back, we can see family and friends again. We are 90% vaxxed. Get out and enjoy it people.
 

Deliverance

Brownlow Medallist
Jun 19, 2011
17,403
29,132
MCG
AFL Club
Hawthorn
We don't have time for long term health policy in Victoria, gotta figure out how to stack branches without 60 minutes finding out.
 

Taylor

Community Leader
Jul 16, 2009
60,247
73,314
Perth
AFL Club
Fremantle
We don't have time for long term health policy in Victoria, gotta figure out how to stack branches without 60 minutes finding out.
You don't get it. What's the point of having people to rule if you aren't in charge?
 

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