Australia's fourth Super12 team

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Sydneyfan

Sydneyfan

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Australia's set to get another Super 12 team, I can't remember whether the team will be ready for next year or the year after. There's a few areas which are keen to gain a Super12 team: NSW Central Coast, Parramatta, Perth, and Melbourne.
I'd say that Melbourne would be the best bet for the next Australian Super12 side, over the last few years Melbournians have taken well to Rugby Union with large crowd and television audiences.
Perth is another good option (considering its large ex-pat British, Kiwi and South African population) but I think at the moment Melbourne is the best option.
I don't think that the NSW Central Coast has the population necessary for a Super12 team, and since the NSW Waratahs haven't set the world on fire during its time in the Super12 competition, I don't think that the Sydney metropolitan area deserves another team just yet.
 

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Well Im not a rugby fan, but now that Im up here in QLD for a bit I stubble across the odd article while searching for footy articles in the local rags.

I read one article where they reckon another super12 team is bad for the competition. According to them it will only dilute an already weak comp. and they were pretty much against ANY new super 12 team.

I mean the comp cant pull a crowd with its existing teams, any more cant make it easier.
 
Smokin

I think that article was written by a New Zealander!!

The Super 12's teams were pulling in really good crowds.

I hope we get a team here in Melbourne. I would imagine half of the Storm people would also follow Union, plus there are also many Union fans who don't follow league.

I am confident that Union would be a huge success here, more even than league.!! The recent tests RATED VERY VERY WELL here in Melbourne, the first one from Brisbane...over 300,000...and typical of 3aw they didn't bother to give the ratings for the remaining Melb. and Sydney tests, because I BET THEY WERE HUGE!!

Providing the Union game was not on the same day as the Storm game, I would be first in the dooor!!

I would also love to see Perth regain a NRL side as well as a Union side eventually...ALSO for S.A. too....its sad these States can't enjoy rugby and league.....the AFL HAS TO LEARN TO RELAX their attitude toward the rugby codes!!:p
 
well I'm sorry to be a bit of a devils advocate here but I reckon the decision to have another Australian team in the Super 12 will be an absolute disaster.

Haven't the Union guys learnt the hard lesson of Rugby League ?

The competition is expanding too quickly, with little or no thought put into such basic stuiff like who is going to actually play in this team, and, how competitive will they be ?

Remember when the Rugby League started to quickly expand during the late 80's and early 90's ?

Overnight teams bobbed up all over the place, suddenly their were teams in North Queensland, Auckland, a second team in SE Queensland, a Gold Coast team, a team from the Illawarra, etc etc

Available playing talent was spread way too thinly. The result was poor standard games with blow-out results. All of the expansion teams were terrible, barely competitive on the field. The integrity and quality of the competition as a whole suffered terribly and it was little wonder Super League happened because some kind of circuit breaker was desperately needed to rationalise a competition that had gotten way too big for the available pool of playing and administrative talent.

Same thing will happen with the expanded Super 12. The new team (regardless of where it is located) will be really struggling to put a decent squad of players together and will be the competition's whipping boy for the many years to come.

Its all very well and good to get carried away with the acheivements of the ACT Brumbies, but if you ook a little closer, you will see that Australian teams struggle quite badly in the Super 12.

NSW have never made the Semi finals of the Super 12 at all, Queenlsnad have made it once only, and these two states represent over 90 percent of the available playing talent in Rugby Union. If a team like NSW can't even make the semis, what hope will the new team have ?

Rugby Union people have to pull their head in and stop getting too excited just because the Super 12 is popular and draws good crowds. Rugby is, and always will be, little more than a narrowly focused niche-interest football code in Australia. If Rugby people think that their game is big enough to take on the AFL or Rugby League or Soccer head to head, then I'm afraid they could be in for a major disappointment.

They should sit back and work harder at making the Aussie teams that are already in the competition much stronger and much more financially viable before they start worrying about expansion.

The new Super 12 team will be a disaster, just you watch and see.

cheers
 
Re: Smokin

Originally posted by Ms.Storm
I think that article was written by a New Zealander!!

The Super 12's teams were pulling in really good crowds.

I hope we get a team here in Melbourne. I would imagine half of the Storm people would also follow Union, plus there are also many Union fans who don't follow league.

I am confident that Union would be a huge success here, more even than league.!! The recent tests RATED VERY VERY WELL here in Melbourne, the first one from Brisbane...over 300,000...and typical of 3aw they didn't bother to give the ratings for the remaining Melb. and Sydney tests, because I BET THEY WERE HUGE!!

Providing the Union game was not on the same day as the Storm game, I would be first in the dooor!!

I would also love to see Perth regain a NRL side as well as a Union side eventually...ALSO for S.A. too....its sad these States can't enjoy rugby and league.....the AFL HAS TO LEARN TO RELAX their attitude toward the rugby codes!!:p
Click to expand...

No it wasnt written by a NZer, I think it was an ex Wallaby.

Dont you learn from the past? How the hell can they bring teams back to WA and SA? They were financial disasters - u got something against money??

Union is too weak a supported sport to grow much bigger.

League is also on a downward spiral.

Has anyone else heard that there is talk of a kind of re-joining of union and league??? I cant remember where, maybe on the radio, but they were saying that for long term viability or something the two codes may need to re-join again. Standing alone they both struggle a bit, and they reckon there isnt a long term future in the NRL financially.

I know a bloke who played for Souths and he doesnt even watch League anymore - not because of Souths, he actually followed Balmain as a kid and now follows Wests - but he thinks the sport is stuffed and is going nowhere.

He hates to admit it, but cant see league nor union ever getting close to AFL in the next 10 years. I mean the swans dont even pull great crowds, but gee the NRL would kill for em! He suggested a merger of union and league may be the only way to keep some sort of rugby a high profile sport in Australia.

I dunno how financially League is surviving - those blokes get paid heaps but the sport has little support. Beats me!
 
Whilst personally I would love to see a Super 12 team in Melbourne, I think SANZAR need to be careful about expanding too quickly. It isn't really valid to draw comparisons between support/ratings at the recent Lions test series, or any internationals for that matter. Rugby union is one sport where the international level receives huge support compared with domestic level, particuarly in the non-traditional states. To compare with the Lions series would be like saying that the AFL Grand Final rates well in Alice Springs so they are ready for an AFL team. The fact that the Lions only tour here once every 12 years adds to the auroa of their tours. That doesn't mean Melbourne can't support a team, just that I would be wary of using that series to justify it.

As far as comparisons to AFL for support and the idea of union "taking them on" ... completely irrelevant. The purpose of this exercise isn't to take over from AFL, any more than AFL is going to take over from league in Queensland. It is a niche sport as someone pointed out and this new team should just market to that niche in a huge sporting town.

On the point about merging union and league. While News Corp has so much invested in league worldwide I can't see it happening. Union's big advantage is a stronger international standard, courtesy of more countries playing it. Let's not forget league only came into existance because union was too rough for professionals. I contend that seeing as union has now gone professional, we can just get rid of league altogether :D
 
It will go to Perth. They have the best geographical location and a wealth of ex-pat South Africans and New Zealanders.

I would support a Melbourne team...but nothing would be able to sway my allegiance away from the Queensland Reds....nothing!!! :)
 
I think a lot of Sydney people like to bag the game of league, more so people that have lost their teams, e.g. Balmain, Norths, etc. supporters.
Thankfully now that the Rabbitohs have rejoined the Nrl, things will settle down a bit.
Also as far as I can remember, people have been saying League is headed on the downward spiral...but its still very much the loved sport of Qld. and NSW.

League is doing okay...good sponsorship, etc, now and
News Ltd. won't pull the pin....there's too much money involved now with tv rights etc. where its the most popular sport...its just not the culture for Sydney people to attend games so much when you can watch them on tv.

What do the Swans now draw? About 22,000 - 32,000 approv.
If you add up all the NRL games in NSW , league would normally win the figures....but it should be heaps better. However, league has never been a big crowd puller (SOO and G.Finals excepted) and can't be compared to afl.

Sounds to me you don't want any competition for afl;)

I personally like all footy codes and thinks its really healthy for kids to be able to play different types of games! ;)
 
Ms Storm is right about Rugby League

It might be stuffed, but it won't die.

Rugby League has actually 'been stuffed' for most of its history. It has always been a poor relation of Union, has never had the reach and exposure that Union has enjoyed throughout the rest of the world.

For most of it history League has struggled to be a viable alternative to Union, the old club competitions in Sydney and Brisbane were the only place in the whole world where League was stronger than Union.

Today, League is still absolutely stuffed, The Northern Eagles are on the verge of collapse after they have wasted 12 million dollars of News Limited and ARL funding since 1999. (Staggering figures aren't they ?)

South might be back in, but now Wests Tigers are taking the NRL to court because they were forced into a shotgun merger that they now believe is invalid.

All the clubs are losing money by the bucketload, attendances are absolutely ridiculous (try 10,000 at a game ? - reckon the SANFL could do better than that !) and News Limited is still tipping money into a bottomless pit.

Since 1995 News Limited have pumped in a truly staggering 500 MILLION DOLLARS of their own money into Australian Rugby League - and not a single brass razoo in profit to show for it - yet anyway.

The public seem to have lost interest, only coming out to support SOO, and a handful of 'blockbuster' games. Super 12 and Tri-Nations Rugby Union now generate far more interest than League does.

Yes, League is stuffed, but its always been stuffed, and probably always will be stuffed.

It won't die though - the code is nothing if not resilient.

cheers
 

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Im not sure here with league - but isnt News Ltd giving money to League not directly, but thru the Fox network, namely Fox sports here in Australia?

If so, currently Disney are buying out Fox TV for about 5 billion dollars, with 2 Billion in debt - would this effect the future funding of league?

I have heard that if league wasnt pumped with all the money it gets, it would die.

If the funding stops - what happens to League?

It's interesting seeing views on rugby and league, and how rugby is really much better and bigger etc - however being in QLD, you wouldnt even know union existed apart from the internationals. It's a dead game up here - but League isnt huge either.

On the Gold Coast Australian Footy is the biggest code - true there are heaps of ex-Vics, but Gold Coast club footy out number league heaps, and no league club except the broncos can compete with the size of a Southport sharks.
 
Originally posted by elt
Let's not forget league only came into existance because union was too rough for professionals. :D
Click to expand...

Elt,
I would regard myself as more of a Union man than a League man but I have to disagree with that point.The reason why League came into being was because the rugby clubs in the north of England broke away from the Rugby Football Union because they wanted to pay players for playing which went against the amateur ethos of the RFU.These northern clubs formed Rugby League with its various rule changes from Union.I'm from the south of England (London) & the general view in this country is that northerners are a tougher species than 'southern softies' so I doubt that Union was 'too rough' for them.
 
Originally posted by Ms.Storm

Providing the Union game was not on the same day as the Storm game, I would be first in the dooor!!
Click to expand...

I doubt it would be on the same day as a Storm game coz The new Melbourne side would be based at Colonial as well, would'nt they?

Mags
 
Smokin...

From what I can gather by visiting the r/l sites and being at Storm games and the talk there, the Gold Coast is screaming out for a leagues side (one to be relocated) Last weeks transferred game at Carrarra was sold out!!

I would imagine afl is quite popular in Q'ld seeing over 1,000 people migrate there each week and 62% of them are Victorians, and naturally they will take their footy code with them.

I think another team in Brisbane will rejuvenate r/l in that State.
(Hope its not Storm).

I hope league and union does not die...seriously..it would be boring just having one code of footy to watch.!!
 
Ms Storm - yea, it was sold out - but carrara isnt exactly the mcg, and the whole week beforehand up here all they were doing was giving tickets away on the radio.

Who is screaming for another team? I am currently up here, have been for a few weeks now, and I havnt heard anything of the sort. The Coast has already resigned to the fact of not having a team, geez the chargers were well supported werent they!! NOT!

That other south qld mob were a smash hit too!

I think you need to learn from the past Ms Storm - you want teams in SA, WA and the Coast - they have already tried that and failed miserably, even those blockheads wont be stupid enough to try that again.

Also regarding south sydney, from what I can gather up here they reckon bringing them back is a terrible move, but the NRL will give in. I have no idea, but many sports commentators and whatever believe the NRL is going backwards. For a so-called state 'hooked' :rolleyes: on league - gee it receives heaps of negativity.
 
YOU ARE SO NEGATIVE, SMOKING!!!!!

Why do you slag off at the rugby codes!!!

Just stick to afl !!!
You obviously don;t like it and sound like many typical Victorians here who are ignorant re their appreciation of other football games.

AFL is a great game, but other games like soccer/league, etc. in my eyes are as equal in their appeal.!

Cheers
 
WCE2000

I disagree.
Melbourne will support a rugby union team (sorry Mags...,I was not thinking...they will play at Colonial!!).
Over half of the Storm supporters will also go, so you can count on about roughly 10,000 rugby league supporters total who aklso like Union and on top of that there are ex=pats here that only love rugby. There will be no problem getting 15,000 plus going to games.
I hope I have this right, but there are over 1,700 registered rugby players here in Victoria and its a growing sport.
There are also some Wallabies that are Victorians...that fact will help.
Last years Nelson Mandella cup (not a test) drew 34,500 people at Colonial. There is interest here in Melbourne in rugby..

If the team is situated in Perth it will be equally as successful.
Thousands of ex=pat S.A. AND English and Kiwis there.
The Tri-Nations Test set for Perth shortly sold out in a matter of days.
If Canberra can support the Brumbies, Victoria and W.A. WILL BE able to support a Super 14' team.

I am absolutely convinced of this.

The ratings in Melb. for the 2 final Lions Tour Tests showed figures of over 600,000 for EACH TEST. The first test was a fair bit lower (according to Gerard Healy..and I don't trust him re rugby because he wants to pump up afl and sledges
rugby/league and soccer) was around 350,000 on free to air (this did not include Foxtel)...so I did my own investigations.

;) Cheers
 
Re: YOU ARE SO NEGATIVE, SMOKING!!!!!

Originally posted by Ms.Storm
Why do you slag off at the rugby codes!!!

Just stick to afl !!!
You obviously don;t like it and sound like many typical Victorians here who are ignorant re their appreciation of other football games.

AFL is a great game, but other games like soccer/league, etc. in my eyes are as equal in their appeal.!

Cheers
Click to expand...

I am being realistic here - thats the best you can come back at me because you know your wrong. Sth Qld WONT get another team, there isnt the support!

I am ignorant because of my lack of appreciation for other codes am I? Hmmm, I have lived, in part at least but also for extended periods the past 6-7 years in QUEENSLAND! trust me, I have given it a try.

And the fact is League is not as popular in Qld as many people suggest. You would think that League up Nth is as popular as Footy in Victoria - NOWHERE near it!

I made a point on watching the newses that I could this weekend - just about ALL of them had AFL stories first, before all OTHER sports, including LEAGUE and UNION! That is fact.

You dont have to make up stories about leagues support - the coast ISNT crying for another team. The Charges would get under 5,000 a game!!! That is pathetic!

also, yea, some Vics would turn up to a Super 12 game once or twice, but not constantly! Forget Wallaby games, gee in Sydney they are extrememly popular, 10 times more so than League games, but union doesnt have anywhere near the popularity of League in Sydney or Qld. One-off games prove nothing, absolutely nothing!

I mean if union gets storm-type crowds in vic, wouldnt it go broke? I mean, all league clubs except the Broncos make a loss just about every year - however they get pumped with the corporate dollar. Does Union? No.

Dont worry, I have given League and Union a chance, I actually know a bit about them, but they struggle as a spectacle. I mean many Qlders agree, its a game u sorta gotta be brought up with, its hard to catch on to it. A bit like cricket and Baseball. I am a huge soccer fan - does that make me ignorant about other footy codes??
 
Smokin......

It seemed to me you just wanted to degrade both rugby codes.
You may not like them, but I do and will stick up for them to the best of my ability and knowledge...and I do know a fair bit about both codes.

I have read and its been stated on 2gb that the game at Carrara was booked out early and there was a big demand for tickets for the match. From that you would assume league was in some sort of demand there.
Don't forget the afl give away free tickets to games here in Mebourne too, yes even the big games like Essen vs Coollingwood!!
Do you visit rugby league sites..if you do you can gauge a lot of support for a team in that area.
I am not sure what support the chargers got, but I think the 5,000 you stated was the lowest crowd they EVER GOT.
You have to remember, the rugby league crowds will NEVER RIVAL afl crowds....its stupid to make comparisons....its not the culture for rugby league followers to go to all games as afl people tend to do.
With League in Brisbane and afl, there are a LOT of ex=pats Vics. living there and of course they will take their afl culture with them, consequently its probably quite popular over there...there should be no drama re this.......they are more relaxed in Brisbane in showing ALL FOOTY CODES......my friend just returned home for a while and we were discussing this very fact at the Storm game on Sunday....he's been there for a number of years and follows the Broncos and some Lions games......he said there's no dramas there about ANY FOOTY CODES...not like in Melbourne, where there is a definate bias against rugby by the media and quite a number of Victorians who constantly slag the game.!!

AND I don't make up stories about league support...I deny that vermently...I get my information from my friends living there and via the net and newspapers and I often listen to 4bc and 2ue to get my fix of league and union, because there is so little here on Victorian radio.

Did you know the Queensland Gov't has approached the Melb. Storm to relocate to Brisbane?? To be the second tenant to the Broncos?? Why would they do that if there was no support for league in that state???

SOO crowds in Q'ld. and NSW suggest to me that League is still very popular in both those states.

Storm are doing quite well with their crowds....could be better if some more Victorians would just realise what a wonderful treasure they have here in the Storm......sure league is not everyone's cup of team, but the more you watch it the more you like it......I am an afl supporter but have grown to love the game.

I think the number of games that a Super 14 team would play here in Melbourne would be a huge drawcard......it not like they play every week here......I will have a bet with you that a Super 12 team would be HUGE here in Melb.

At least I am glad you follow soccer which I love too;)
 
you look at the one-off games too much.

And about QLDers accepting all codes - they are different to melbourne - there is no sporting passion here like there is in Melbourne.

The feeling I have is they like em all, love none!

Also why didnt you comment on the fact that all league clubs except the broncos are making a loss, but get heaps of financial help from corparate giants. This means that if the Storm were a stand alone club they would be close to folding - hmmm, I dont think union would be able to get many more people to games, and they dont get the corporate support of league.

I for one, wouldnt go near investing in a melbourne based union team. I mean the Reds get no-one to games, why would anyone think Melbourne would?? I went to a Reds-Stomers game, and they reckoned there were 8,000 or so there - I had no doubts they were full of crap. Nowhere near it. Thats QLD, the "home" of union in Australia with NSW apparently.

Oh and why didnt the QLD govt help the chargers if the region is so in need of another club? The chargers were left to drown. The qld govt would gladly have someone else risk money and bring a team here, but wont fork out a cent to help em if things go bad. WHen its not your money - its all good eh!!

Storm are doing well with their crowds??? Hmmm, I would like to see their balance sheet at the end of the year - see how much "profit" they are making!!!
 
I am starting to see right thru you......!!

YOU HATE RUGBY (BOTH CODES) and WANT TO bring it down at every level. WHY??? Are you so insecure?? Can't you see any positives in rugby...it may not be your cup of tea, but millions upon millions love it around the world......so you are in the minority.!!

I guage support for rugby here in Melb. not just by the two previous games in Melb. the Mandella Cup and Lions Tests, but from previous tests at the "G". and by the important fact that there are over 700 sponsors queuing up to sponsor a Super 14's team here in Melb.....its a growing sport and we should all be supporting sport in Aust. especially ones that represent your state!!
I think you WANT TO THINK and hope there will be no support for rugby here in Melb....well you are wrong.....I bet people will come out of hiding inMelb. to support a Super 14 team...it will complement Storm and you have to remember that there will only be (from memory) about 7 or so games they play here...its not a weekly event and Melbournians do support sport here.

As of the last Census, there were well over 80,000 ex pats here and I would guess many of those supported both or either of the rugby codes!! I would imagine, there are a lot more here now, especially Kiwis who love their rugby!!

Regarding your point on the Broncos being the only NRL club to make a profit, well I haven't avoided agreeing mentioning you are right, its one of your points I did not debate on!
You are right re the Broncos but you must realise that a lot of the other NRL clubs in Sydney would still be able to stand alone because of their Leagues clubs, eg Parramatta, Penrith, Bulldogs, and possibly a few others....and yes some of the clubs are struggling but these teams (incl. Melb. Storm) are backed by News Ltd. and News Ltd interests also lie with PayTV andthis is where a lot of revenue is obtained.
Don't forget AFL MAY well go down that same path also.
Can you also tell me why my team the Dees will lose $1m+ this year, as will the Dockers and a no. of other afl teams...???

The Victorian Go'vt also refuses to help afl teams down here.

I don't see your point re the Chargers,....they no longer exist.
All I know is that the Q'ld Gov't approached Storm to relocate to Brisbane to be the second team to play along the Broncos.l and from that and reading other stuff there seems to be a big push for another NRL team to play out of Brisbane.

We are going around in circles here.....to sum up we'll agree to disagree.....I think a Super 14 team will succeed here in Melb....you don't and until a team (if and when) does eventually play its games here, you and I can only guess its eventual success or failure....but I would still love to have a bet with you on that!!!!

On Storm crowds, I will argue with you that they are doing beautifully in an afl biased state....you can only compare the afl crowds in Sydney and Brisbane at the 4 yr. stage...Storm have doubled those crowds in Sydney and Brisbane...and yes, you may eventually be proven right...they may not increase too much more but I think they will if they are ALLOWED TO GET FAIR AND EQUAL PROMOTION BY THE LOCAL MEDIA AND providing the NRL get behind Storm (as the afl did for Swans and Lions) and providing Victorians get the heads out of their backsides and see that rugby and league is a wonderful product, Storm numbers will increase as did the Swans...who now usually have ?25,000 OR thereabouts at their games after 20 years.

AND i WILL be supporting Storm and Dees even if there balance books show huge losses!!

Have a nice night Smokin..

:p :p :cool:
 
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