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Australia's obsession with over-sized stadiums.

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Keays2myBeamas

All Australian
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Playing AFL in front of empty stands has highlighted how crucial a role the atmosphere plays in the magnetism of live sport. The next generation of this country are turning to European Soccer, and part of the drawcard of these leagues are the atmospheres. More kids play soccer at U16 level than Football, League and Union combined. If the AFL wants to survive and thrive as a superior alternative for the next generation, it needs to think seriously about enhancing crowd atmosphere by returning to smaller venues.

Generally speaking, in international sports, if your planned stadium is not going to be at at least 80% capacity, for 80% of events, you'd be insane to build.

If you do, the owners/tenants of the venue are left with 4 pretty major problems:
- You'll have overspent on the build budget, and the costs to maintain and run the stadium will exceed the revenue from ticket sales, leaving a big hole in the bottom line.
-Below capacity attendances result in a massively diluted atmosphere, which heavily reduces the perceived quality of events held at the stadium - both for the attendees and tv viewers. People are willing to pay far less to see sport in venue at 25% capacity than they are willing to pay to watch the same match in a sold out venue.
-To counter the excess supply and reduced demand, you have to reduce ticket prices, which reduces the "perceived value" of the event. Holding a ticket to a game no longer becomes an enviable status symbol, and people have even less desire to actually attend a game.
-Because of the low ticket price and low exclusivity, there is an increased percentage of casual and fringe fans attending relative to hardcore fans, which dilutes the atmosphere even further.

You're left with a negative feedback loop that's pretty hard to break.

These issues can cause some interesting decisions by poorly run organisations. During the early 2010s, Cricket Australia refused to sell ODI tickets for less than $100, because they didn't want the perceived value of attending international cricket to be compromised. They had no problem filling stadiums in the late 90s and early 2000s when the Australian ODI team was on, but they were left with 4-8k attendances in the early 2010s in stadiums that were only getting bigger. For too long, they refused to budge on the ticket prices and their crowd numbers suffered a lot more than they should have given the reduction in quality of the team. Unsurprisingly CA is absolutely strapped for cash to deal with coronavirus. Playing games at smaller, more intimate and elegant, character filled, sold out venues would have added to the experience in an age of soulless concrete and steel. They would have had better attendances with those ticket prices because of the increased value of the experience. Not to mention the venues are cheaper to lease.

The issue is not that the MCG or Perth Stadium or the Adelaide Oval shouldn't exist - they should. The issue is that money should have been spent on venues with elegance and character like Victoria Park, Princes Park, and Whitten Oval, before building an additional soulless pieces of crap like Docklands. Extra toilet and food facilities is pretty a manageable undertaking. Cricket should absolutely not be at the Perth Stadium when the attendance wouldn't have filled the WACA. The SCG is too big. The Gabba is too big. ANZ is a joke. Metricon should be torn down and dumped in the ocean to create some more reef.

But what about the fan? What if they want to attend for $25. Too many would miss out!
I don't buy this argument at all - this only benefits fair-weather fans who detract from the atmosphere in any case. If you're an actual fan you buy a membership, or you buy your ticket early enough so you don't miss out. Should a concert be played in a quarter-filled MCG instead of Rod Laver Arena because some slow-to-buy fringe fans will miss out? All you're doing is reducing the quality of the concert. As much as the idea that any family can roll up to the ticket booth of the MCG and waltz in for a reasonable price for any match of the season is a nice utopia, it fundamentally hurts the quality of the product we produce, to the point where we're losing fans.

Clearly stadium size is not the only factor that dilutes the quality of the product - the number of teams and team location hurts as well. There's obviously too many teams. But a well run team can survive in a tough location if they have a small venue with lower costs. The Gold Coast and GWS would have done better in 10,000-15,000 seat boutique grounds, a small field size and a tight knit atmosphere akin to an English club ground. Metricon is a huge field and has about as much atmosphere as the moon. St Kilda/North/Footscray might be thriving a bit more if they played out of 20k Suburban grounds instead of having to fork out an arm and a leg to play at Docklands on a Sunday night.

The days of the suburban ground are not over. That's bullshit spoken by the type of people who enjoy going to Marvel Stadium.
 
I don't think it matters what AFL or rugby do, they are finished as sports due to OH&S and changing cultures

The AFL need to focus on reaping and consolidation rather than growth
 
Generally speaking, in international sports, if your planned stadium is not going to be at at least 80% capacity, for 80% of events, you'd be insane to build.

Is this based on evidence or anecdotally?? There’s plenty of stadiums around the world that wouldn’t get 80% of capacity for 80% of events.

The issue is that money should have been spent on venues with elegance and character like Victoria Park, Princes Park, and Whitten Oval, before building an additional soulless pieces of crap like Docklands. Extra toilet and food facilities is pretty a manageable undertaking.

The days of the suburban ground are not over. That's bullshit spoken by the type of people who enjoy going to Marvel Stadium.

When’s the last time you attended a suburban ground?

As someone that has been to Victoria Park (probably half a dozen times), Whitten Oval, Punt Road Oval & Ikon Park countless times over the past 4-5 seasons to watch VFL & AFLW games they are fun to attend within itself—- but they are NOT suitable for AFL level football.

Victoria Park for example is used as a dog park for most of the week. The quality of the ground is ok for AFLW/VFLW, but not for AFL.

Let’s remove the emotive concepts away from this debate (atmosphere, vibe, historical significance, etc.) in Melbourne outside of the MCG & Marvel the physical grounds aren’t & in most cases financially unable to be kept at the quality required for top level AFL footy week-in, week-out.
 
The next generation of this country are turning to European Soccer
Yeah but how many of them actually watch it as opposed to following it on social media. 'Fans' of Manchester United etc. never watch games.

Due to the time difference it can never take over.
I don't think it matters what AFL or rugby do, they are finished as sports
AFL = Australian Football League
Football = the name of the sport
 

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It's actually a worldwide thing following trends of America where they need to oversize stadiums in order to appease cities to pay for professional Big 4 sporting teams (MLS is not considered big 4, but are the counter argument). Australia however have their supersizing in order not to fit the common fan or member, but to make sure there's plenty of room for corporates and event attendees where they see the dollars to recoup investment. Plus the bigger stadia and the modern venue would have the media in mind for their design, in order to give the TV viewer (which sporting codes in Australia are overly reliant on) the best impression of a venue as well as helping alleviate set up costs that smaller boutique part time venues would require.
 
People didn't go to the cricket last year in Perth because it was 40 plus degrees for a solid week. The only place that people were going to was the beach. You can write those crowd numbers off. The WACA has terrible amenities, especially in regards to sun and heat protection.
 
It's good to know the MCG actually should exist after all, I definitely needed to be told that. Unfortunately every other sentence in the OP's breathtakingly stupid rant was wrong.

Ownership of Docklands Stadium is part of why the AFL is towering over every other sport in the country. Anybody who hasn't figured that out has got a lot of catching up to do.
 
It's good to know the MCG actually should exist after all, I definitely needed to be told that. Unfortunately every other sentence in the OP's breathtakingly stupid rant was wrong.

Ownership of Docklands Stadium is part of why the AFL is towering over every other sport in the country. Anybody who hasn't figured that out has got a lot of catching up to do.

What a charming response
 
People didn't go to the cricket last year in Perth because it was 40 plus degrees for a solid week. The only place that people were going to was the beach. You can write those crowd numbers off. The WACA has terrible amenities, especially in regards to sun and heat protection.
I wish we were playing at the WACA still though. Compare the 20,000 Scorchers atmosphere at a packed out WACA to 30,000 at a half full Optus..
 
Yeah but how many of them actually watch it as opposed to following it on social media. 'Fans' of Manchester United etc. never watch games.

Due to the time difference it can never take over.

AFL = Australian Football League
Football = the name of the sport

remnants of my military days as "football" added to confusion when chatting with queenslanders and walers. Aussie Rules probably makes more sense but AFL was the military term used for the code.
 
I really think that Melbourne needs a 30K boutique stadium for the smaller VIC clubs to host unappealing interstate teams.

Would create a more true home ground feel, with more fierce and hostile atmosphere for the travellers.

And Cardinia Park is not in Melbourne.
 

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I really think that Melbourne needs a 30K boutique stadium for the smaller VIC clubs to host unappealing interstate teams.

Would create a more true home ground feel, with more fierce and hostile atmosphere for the travellers.

And Cardinia Park is not in Melbourne.

But then when Melbourne played West Coast or another interstate side at this boutique stadium we'd get the #VICBIAS whinge that interstate sides never get to play on the MCG.
 
IMHO half the problem is that new stands/stadiums are built and then the best seats (usually the wings and second level) are carved off as premium seating, either for members/exclusive clubs or premium pricing. This then forces patrons to congregate behind the goals or on the top decks, leaving a look of a sparsely filled stadium.

If 50,000 showed up to the MCG and they filled ground level first, and then the next level before opening the top decks (pricing not being exorbitant) it would help with atmosphere, and probably save on costs, which would somewhat offset the premium pricing they attach to those seats.

I remember going to the MCG back before the GSS was built and pretty much being able to circle the ground on the lower deck apart from the MCC members, and sit wherever I wanted. It was awesome.
 
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Agree 100% Victorians love to say the MCG stadium is the best in the world... Its a ridiculous statement, its a cold soulless stadium where your view of the match is horrendous unless you are on level 2 and on the wing.

And when Melbourne is playing, especially if they are playing a non-Victorian team.
 
Your missing the infrastructure and services costs to most of the stadiums.

To broadcast national televised, HD quality live content, you need a hell of a lot of cable and data being fed in to these grounds.

It's the same reason we won't be playing AFL at traditional grounds when it reboots. They don't have the services infrastructure in place.

The networks cop the additional costs for pre-season one off games, but not for the bulk of 300+ games.
 
Even if youngsters here get into soccer and EPL, if they lived in the uk they’d have Buckley’s chance of attending EPL games. In Victoria they can.

it’s a big difference to your argument.

where the MCG falls over is having ridiculous members reserves when walk ups have to go to the nosebleeds
 

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where the MCG falls over is having ridiculous members reserves when walk ups have to go to the nosebleeds

You're upset that people who pay for memberships get access to better seats than the Average Joe?
 
And when Melbourne is playing, especially if they are playing a non-Victorian team.

Melbourne games (especially against interstate teams) look terrible on tv because pretty much the entire crowd is in the northern stand. Even if we get 30k-40k probably 80% are in the northern stand making it look like a suburban crowd in the southern stand where the cameras are facing.
 
Is this based on evidence or anecdotally?? There’s plenty of stadiums around the world that wouldn’t get 80% of capacity for 80% of events.



When’s the last time you attended a suburban ground?

As someone that has been to Victoria Park (probably half a dozen times), Whitten Oval, Punt Road Oval & Ikon Park countless times over the past 4-5 seasons to watch VFL & AFLW games they are fun to attend within itself—- but they are NOT suitable for AFL level football.

Victoria Park for example is used as a dog park for most of the week. The quality of the ground is ok for AFLW/VFLW, but not for AFL.

Let’s remove the emotive concepts away from this debate (atmosphere, vibe, historical significance, etc.) in Melbourne outside of the MCG & Marvel the physical grounds aren’t & in most cases financially unable to be kept at the quality required for top level AFL footy week-in, week-out.

That's not really an argument though, those grounds have been left to devolve after decades of neglect. If they were upgraded and curated appropriately they could be brought up to speed pretty easily if the will was there. Vic Park probably not required because the Pies have far outgrown it but Princes Park (Carlton/North), Western Oval (Bulldogs) and maybe Moorabbin (Saints) could be upgraded.
 
Agree 100% Victorians love to say the MCG stadium is the best in the world... Its a ridiculous statement, its a cold soulless stadium where your view of the match is horrendous unless you are on level 2 and on the wing.
Bang on the money. Hell, AAMI Park and Rod Laver across the tracks are better stadiums than the MCG. Adelaide Oval is the best ground in the league.
 
That's not really an argument though, those grounds have been left to devolve after decades of neglect. If they were upgraded and curated appropriately they could be brought up to speed pretty easily if the will was there. Vic Park probably not required because the Pies have far outgrown it but Princes Park (Carlton/North), Western Oval (Bulldogs) and maybe Moorabbin (Saints) could be upgraded.

Who’s going to put invest money into these grounds? (Especially if we are going into a financial recession). The Victorian government has only recently through millions @ the MCG & Marvel.

Where as the AFL owns Marvel—why spend money on another ground that will only just take money away from a ground they own?

If the money was there to turn one of these grounds into 21st Century stadiums—sure; but in their current states it would just make the AFL look second rate.
 

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