Australia's policy on climate change is completely inconsequential

[Snake_Baker]

How much recycling has gone to landfill last few years?

Dunno & don't care mate.

It has given birth to some glorious bureaucratic careers and that's what really matters.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Battery storage seems to still be in its infancy. As the take-up continues it will inevitably lead from a floppy disk capacity storage - to external hard drive and beyond in no time.

Yeah because one technology ( which wasn't invented by Benjamin Franklin ) could be vastly improved over a few decades , the other must be able to be improved just as much. ( even though its hundreds of years in the making , Lithium Ion batteries were used on the Moon Rover ).
Why do you think that makes sense on anything other than the "vibe" you're getting.

 

[hamohawk1]

Yeah because one technology ( which wasn't invented by Benjamin Franklin ) could be vastly improved over a few decades , the other must be able to be improved just as much. ( even though its hundreds of years in the making , Lithium Ion batteries were used on the Moon Rover ).
Why do you think that makes sense on anything other than the "vibe" you're getting.

Proof will be in the pudding when batteries can store mass power at a cost where significant outlay isn't required. Till then Fossil Fuels will likely reign supreme.

 

[kranky al]

Yeah because one technology ( which wasn't invented by Benjamin Franklin ) could be vastly improved over a few decades , the other must be able to be improved just as much. ( even though its hundreds of years in the making , Lithium Ion batteries were used on the Moon Rover ).
Why do you think that makes sense on anything other than the "vibe" you're getting.

<<<Power was provided by two 36-volt silver-zinc potassium hydroxide non-rechargeable batteries with a charge capacity of 121 A·h each (a total of 242 A·h), yielding a range of 57 miles (92 km).
Also called: "Lunar rover"; "Moon buggy"
Curb weight: 460 pounds (210 kg) on Earth; 76 pounds (34 kg) on the Moon
Electric range: 57 miles (92 km)
Battery: Two silver-oxide, 121 A·h>>>

<<<The prototyple lithium ion battery was created by by Akira Yoshino in 1985, based on earlier research by John Goodenough, M. Stanley Whittingham, Rachid Yazami and Koichi Mizushima during the 1970s–1980s, and then a commercial Li-ion battery was developed by a Sony and Asahi Kasei team led by Yoshio Nishi in 1991.>>>

 

[SaintsSeptember]

<<<Power was provided by two 36-volt silver-zinc potassium hydroxide non-rechargeable batteries with a charge capacity of 121 A·h each (a total of 242 A·h), yielding a range of 57 miles (92 km).
Also called: "Lunar rover"; "Moon buggy"
Curb weight: 460 pounds (210 kg) on Earth; 76 pounds (34 kg) on the Moon
Electric range: 57 miles (92 km)
Battery: Two silver-oxide, 121 A·h>>>

<<<The prototyple lithium ion battery was created by by Akira Yoshino in 1985, based on earlier research by John Goodenough, M. Stanley Whittingham, Rachid Yazami and Koichi Mizushima during the 1970s–1980s, and then a commercial Li-ion battery was developed by a Sony and Asahi Kasei team led by Yoshio Nishi in 1991.>>>

Batteries in general have been with us for centuries. My bad , i meant the Mars Rover.

Newer developments are towards lower cost, higher power density, faster charging and lighter weight. Most of these are goals with the Auto industry firmly in mind. Some of the cost reduction developments are not compatible with the other performance enhancing developments.
For main grid power :
1: Lower costs are great, there are limits to the technology being pursued though.
2: Higher power density is great for your car or mobile phone, or your drone, a battery half the size makes a huge difference, ( or a batter the same size but double the power ). For a grid buffer battery in a paddock its just as easy to build it twice the size.
3: Pull into the servo and uh oh....all the charging stations are full, get to wait half an hour for your turn. Faster charging is huge for the auto industry, but in the grid , they charge during normal service which is normally over a decent period of time. It might improve performance a little, but price is probably more important.
4: Weight saving is great for cars , or even laptops and phones.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Is there economy of scale for Solar farms?
Apparently the cost of installing solar panels in these sorts of facilities are similar to the cost of installing them on the roof of a home.
Once installed the home owner typically takes care of cleaning, and replacing any faulty or damaged components.
The spot prices ( crappy feed in tariffs ) are in direct competition to nearby solar farms who will generally have the same solar conditions.

 

[swingdog]

Is there economy of scale for Solar farms?
Apparently the cost of installing solar panels in these sorts of facilities are similar to the cost of installing them on the roof of a home.
Once installed the home owner typically takes care of cleaning, and replacing any faulty or damaged components.
The spot prices ( crappy feed in tariffs ) are in direct competition to nearby solar farms who will generally have the same solar conditions.

Not sure that's true. In the US, it's about half the cost per kilowatt hour of power produced to do it on a solar farm vs. rooftop.

 

[kranky al]

Batteries in general have been with us for centuries. My bad , i meant the Mars Rover.

Newer developments are towards lower cost, higher power density, faster charging and lighter weight. Most of these are goals with the Auto industry firmly in mind. Some of the cost reduction developments are not compatible with the other performance enhancing developments.
For main grid power :
1: Lower costs are great, there are limits to the technology being pursued though.
2: Higher power density is great for your car or mobile phone, or your drone, a battery half the size makes a huge difference, ( or a batter the same size but double the power ). For a grid buffer battery in a paddock its just as easy to build it twice the size.
3: Pull into the servo and uh oh....all the charging stations are full, get to wait half an hour for your turn. Faster charging is huge for the auto industry, but in the grid , they charge during normal service which is normally over a decent period of time. It might improve performance a little, but price is probably more important.
4: Weight saving is great for cars , or even laptops and phones.

I can see cafes opening with every carpark having a charge point - same with maccas etc

it will be a drawcard too good to ignore.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Not sure that's true. In the US, it's about half the cost per kilowatt hour of power produced to do it on a solar farm vs. rooftop.

Solar vs solar: In Australia rooftop PV is pushing down prices for large-scale PV

Solar vs solar: In Australia rooftop PV is pushing down prices for large-scale PV Solar - Renewable Energy World

www.renewableenergyworld.com

The thing is that people install their Solar systems on the roof because they want to make a difference.
Its actually a pretty crappy return on investment compared to the farm, but those guys are in it to make money. They sell whatever they can produce for whatever they can get for it. The panels are no different from home panels, ( though some may have tracking , and probably no annoying neighbours with ever growing cyprus tree's grrr ).

Gas generation certainly benefits from scale ( though smaller units are becoming more competitive ), and viable wind turbines are only suitable in large scale installations. Well you can but they are a bit obtrusive and there is no system for feeding into the grid for anything but solar.

 

[Kwality]

They gunna collect they bin once a forntight now wtf

The nonsense we ordinary folk get fed by Councils is amazing.

 

[swingdog]

Solar vs solar: In Australia rooftop PV is pushing down prices for large-scale PV

Solar vs solar: In Australia rooftop PV is pushing down prices for large-scale PV Solar - Renewable Energy World

www.renewableenergyworld.com

The thing is that people install their Solar systems on the roof because they want to make a difference.
Its actually a pretty crappy return on investment compared to the farm, but those guys are in it to make money. They sell whatever they can produce for whatever they can get for it. The panels are no different from home panels, ( though some may have tracking , and probably no annoying neighbours with ever growing cyprus tree's grrr ).

Gas generation certainly benefits from scale ( though smaller units are becoming more competitive ), and viable wind turbines are only suitable in large scale installations. Well you can but they are a bit obtrusive and there is no system for feeding into the grid for anything but solar.

Fair enough, I was looking at US figures:

What is a solar farm? Costs, land needs & more

Curious about solar farms, or want to start one? Here’s how much land they need, and how much money you can make from one.

www.solarreviews.com

Solar farms will still be needed. There's a limit on how many suitable households there are and that doesn't begin to count other energy consumers. The Victorian government's roadmap to move away from gas will only accelerate the demand for big scale renewables.

 

[Kwality]

How much recycling has gone to landfill last few years?

The truth to this is so much of the material in these bins is recyclable only if not contaminated, see a glass only bin as an example.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Fair enough, I was looking at US figures:

What is a solar farm? Costs, land needs & more

Curious about solar farms, or want to start one? Here’s how much land they need, and how much money you can make from one.

www.solarreviews.com

Solar farms will still be needed. There's a limit on how many suitable households there are and that doesn't begin to count other energy consumers. The Victorian government's roadmap to move away from gas will only accelerate the demand for big scale renewables.

I don't really see the economy of scale. To me a large solar farm is no better than two half sized ones, and in Australia we seem to like to blow out costs on bigger projects.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

The truth to this is so much of the material in these bins is recyclable only if not contaminated, see a glass only bin as an example.

Its also not a huge deal for the environment if some of it gets shoved into a hole in the ground.

 

[Kwality]

Its also not a huge deal for the environment if some of it gets shoved into a hole in the ground.

As we saw in Vic with the SKM debacle, with 'recyclable' material going to landfill courtesy of the taxpayer.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Its convenient to recycle certain materials, metals, glass etc.
Its important to dispose of toxic materials correctly.

Miniature compost bins to avoid food waste going into landfill shows they have lost the plot totally.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

As we saw in Vic with the SKM debacle, with 'recyclable' material going to landfill courtesy of the taxpayer.

that wasnt because of SKM, or the Vic Govt

it was because like the USA, Canada, the UK, and on and on, our recycling industry was utterly dependant upon sending unsorted and contaminated material to China for processing. When china shut the door, noone had a plan b.

only now are we moving towards a more sustainable solution (combination of new processing plant constructed in Australia, and councils returning to split recycling bins as we originally had)

 

[Kwality]

that wasnt because of SKM, or the Vic Govt

it was because like the USA, Canada, the UK, and on and on, our recycling industry was utterly dependant upon sending unsorted and contaminated material to China for processing. When china shut the door, noone had a plan b.

only now are we moving towards a more sustainable solution (combination of new processing plant constructed in Australia, and councils returning to split recycling bins as we originally had)

I agree with your sentiment, but we are being 'sold a pup' that we can recycle our waste stream without sorting at source.
There was interest in the SKM ( & other) material from Asia but it came back to money & the EPA chose to send it to landfill.
As for the future the Visy/Asahi/Pact JV outside Albury will show what can be done & it is not a solution the household waste stream.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

I agree with your sentiment, but we are being 'sold a pup' that we can recycle our waste stream without sorting at source.
There was interest in the SKM ( & other) material from Asia but it came back to money & the EPA chose to send it to landfill.
As for the future the Visy/Asahi/Pact JV outside Albury will show what can be done & it is not a solution the household waste stream.

thats councils being offered cheap deals for unsorted stock

when those discounts disappear, sorting will return

 

[Kwality]

thats councils being offered cheap deals for unsorted stock

when those discounts disappear, sorting will return

Love to agree.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Love to agree.

They have no choice. When Visy and con eventually say "to take unsorted stock we will charge extra", councils will buckle.

They won't want to pass on a rate increase, and high cost au labour means this is unavoidable

 

[Kwality]

They have no choice. When Visy and con eventually say "to take unsorted stock we will charge extra", councils will buckle.

They won't want to pass on a rate increase, and high cost au labour means this is unavoidable

The cost is one thing & its rare the lowest $s dont win.
Its the market for the recycled material that I was looking to address: does the processed material have a commercial value or does it need more government subsidy to be moved on.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

The cost is one thing & its rare the lowest $s dont win.
Its the market for the recycled material that I was looking to address: does the processed material have a commercial value or does it need more government subsidy to be moved on.

its not demand for material thats the issue. its who can be ****ed decontaminating it

right now its often being done by disabled workers, but that is a small workforce. at some stage, they will have to scale up with more expensive labour (esp with the war with china killing that option returning)

 

[Kwality]

its not demand for material thats the issue. its who can be f’ed decontaminating it

right now its often being done by disabled workers, but that is a small workforce. at some stage, they will have to scale up with more expensive labour (esp with the war with china killing that option returning)

Beg to differ.
Contamination is one of the issues, the level of recycled material in new products is also an issue.
We cant even standardise the colour of bin lids, how hard can that be.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Beg to differ.
Contamination is one of the issues, the level of recycled material in new products is also an issue.
We cant even standardise the colour of bin lids, how hard can that be.

thats irrelevant, trucks know the bin colours.

the issue is sorting combined waste. its a s**t job, and Visy and co are not willing to pay that much to do it. That means so far its govt subsidized disability workers who do a lot of it. As the volumes processed locally increase, its either pay for more expensive workers (and pass it on to council), or get councils to reintroduce segregation