Australia's political system is fundamentally compromised

Remove this Banner Ad

Power Raid

TheBrownDog
Oct 15, 2004
68,269
57,892
West Perth
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
The Greens want to return tax rates for the wealthy and big business to what they were in 2016. Were the wealthy and big business being taxed out of existence in 2016?


The OECD themselves say otherwise.

View attachment 958800


We have the same effective company tax rate as those well-known economic basket cases Germany and Japan. The Greens haven't made any plan to raise this, they just want to remove the small business discount for businesses that earn over $10 million per year.


There are multiple reasons for lots of things. One of them is political prejudice, another is the media convincing the ordinary person to do the bidding of billionaires and corporate hucksters.
this has flaws as it fails to consider timing issues be it capital investment vs depreciation, corporate vs personal tax timing difference with dividends or capital gains. It also ignores state taxes and the franking credit liabilities.


but I do believe corporate tax should have remained at 30% for ALL companies




they should also tax churches and charities at the corporate tax rate and apply property taxes as otherwise applied.

they should tax foreigners CGT as they would a local tax resident
 

Johnny Bananas

Norm Smith Medallist
Sep 10, 2010
6,135
7,447
A sugar refinery
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
But the impact of tax on the individual is felt by the per capita measure, not the as a percentage of GDP.
But their ability to pay tax is dependent on their income, i.e. GDP per capita. Tax per capita only has any meaning if compared to GDP per capita. And if you were to express one as a percentage of the other, it gives you the same figure as the tax to GDP ratio.
 

Log in to remove this ad.

Taylor

Community Leader
Jul 16, 2009
50,015
54,238
Perth
AFL Club
Fremantle
But their ability to pay tax is dependent on their income, i.e. GDP per capita. Tax per capita only has any meaning if compared to GDP per capita. And if you were to express one as a percentage of the other, it gives you the same figure as the tax to GDP ratio.
I would think percentage of income as tax would be a more accurate measure on the impact of tax on the individual.
 

Snake_Baker

L'enfant terrible
Suspended
Apr 24, 2013
70,047
135,344
inside your head
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Other Teams
Essendon Lawn Bowls Club
This issue occurs at State and Federal level, irrespective of the party in power.

Whilst each party may have its point of difference, they are all flawed by the power imposed on them by the big multinationals and powerful lobby groups (Mining, Gambling etc). Can't think of an issue that hasn't been swayed or driven in a manner which best suits the above. From a new proposed mine, climate change action, tax cuts etc. they decision making process is seemingly tailored to the interests of the 'top end of town'.

We all are lucky enough to get a say in who is in 'power' every 3/4 years, but the impact a vote has had appears to have deteriorated over time, as has Australia's notion as a 'progressive' society. It was only 40-50 years ago the nation was building housing at a rapid rate to cater for lower income households, free tertiary education, social security was readily accessible (without going through the Centrelink 'hoops', and Australian's genuinely had capacity to live a 'good' quality of life without being at the top of their respective occupation.

The USA is a prime example of where things have gone really bad a growing underclass (can be argued to be in poverty) that live a completely substandard quality of life, whilst at the opposite end of town earn more money, assets and control of society. I would hate to think Australia would be in this same position in the next 30-50 years.


I am at a loss to think of a policy in the past 30 years beyond superannuation, or the recent JobKeeper/Seeker that has brought benefit to a majority of Australians.


Seems like this has all happened while big business, and its associates have basically dismantled the political system in Australia to a big boys and girls club.

Is it cynicism, or is this Country being led down s**t creek?
It is currently heading towards a totalitarian scenario.

Some would claim it's a latent totalitarian scenario now.

The power vacuum that came after independence has almost been completely filled by government.

There are no buffers.
 

Power Raid

TheBrownDog
Oct 15, 2004
68,269
57,892
West Perth
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
And yet you think the Greens' tax policies are "taxing industry out of existence"? Are you sure you read it?
yes, I read it

The issue with the Greens tax policies are:
1) they are misleading in their representations for good reason
2) the taxes are for an agenda other than generating tax


Lets look at misleading statements on just one policy:

1) The mining, oil and gas industries exploit our environment for their own super-profits
please feel free to invest in mining to see how super profits actually are. The average return in mining is 6%.......super!

2) an unfair tax system means many don’t pay for these natural resources
are they suggesting they don't pay for these resources upfront when tenements are pegged? If so, that conveniently ignores the royalties, rates and taxes, corporate taxes, GST, payroll etc and the exploration to discover the resources

3) Companies in some industries make super profits not because of their skill, innovation or hard work but because government sets the regulatory and tax settings in their favour.
Are they suggesting mining isn't a highly innovative sector? what tax and regulatory settings are they referring to?

4) Australia is now the world’s biggest gas exporter. These offshore gas companies will make billions over the next 40 years but never pay a cent in royalties and may never pay a cent in tax either. They get our gas resources completely free and the major parties won’t change that arrangement because they have received millions in donations from these companies.
The PRRT is always under review based on strategic national interest
PRRT has applied to offshore petroleum projects (except for the North West Shelf project and the Joint Petroleum Development Area) since 1987. The Bass Strait project has been subject to PRRT since 1990.
In 2012, the PRRT regime was applied to onshore petroleum projects and the North West Shelf project but not to the Joint Petroleum Development Area.
From 1 July 2019, onshore petroleum projects were removed from the scope of the PRRT. As a result, provisions that relate to initial amounts of starting base expenditure and the consolidation single entity rule were repealed.

5) The Greens would set royalties for gas extraction and wind back the staggering $367 billion worth of tax credits they are sitting on.
This is essentially removing depreciation and promoting speculation and gambling over long term investment

6) For mining companies, we would implement the recommendations of the Henry Tax Review by introducing a 40% super-profits tax on very profitable mining ventures to ensure more wealth is shared with the community.
Then why did they support taxing all mining companies rather than as propsed by Ken Henry?



That's almost 100% misleading and deceptive wording in one policy
 
Last edited:

Lebbo73

Q Sent Me
Oct 20, 2014
15,075
11,134
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Liverpool
The Greens want to return tax rates for the wealthy and big business to what they were in 2016. Were the wealthy and big business being taxed out of existence in 2016?


The OECD themselves say otherwise.

View attachment 958800


We have the same effective company tax rate as those well-known economic basket cases Germany and Japan. The Greens haven't made any plan to raise this, they just want to remove the small business discount for businesses that earn over $10 million per year.


There are multiple reasons for lots of things. One of them is political prejudice, another is the media convincing the ordinary person to do the bidding of billionaires and corporate hucksters.
 

Number37

Anyhow, have a Winfield 25.
Oct 5, 2013
16,967
16,832
AFL Club
Sydney
It is currently heading towards a totalitarian scenario.

Some would claim it's a latent totalitarian scenario now.

The power vacuum that came after independence has almost been completely filled by government.

There are no buffers.

The Constitution, both federally and in the states, is designed to specifically vest power in the Executive in times of crisis.

Executive power is broad, is usually undefined and almost always has very little by way of checks and balances.
For example: At Commonwealth level the "Nationhood Power" (an Executive Power) has been used for mostly dubious purposes, like it was in the Tampa affair.

The legislature can use it Legislative Power to enact legislation which has the effect of abrogating Executive Power.
We're too busy picking on refugees and voting against our own interests to see that we're only screwing ourselves by giving party political hacks free reign to do whatever they and their mates want.

If you want to point the finger of blame, point it at the people.
There has been 44 attempts at Constitutional amendment.
Of those 44, only 8 have been successful.
 

Patrick Bullet

Club Legend
Jun 18, 2003
1,536
1,180
Perth
AFL Club
West Coast
Lebbo73 you've now been showing ITT one chart and one table that show that your assertion that we're one of the highest taxing countries in the OECD is false. Do you intend to update your beliefs about this? If not, may I ask why not, and what evidence you would accept, if those are not enough for you?
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

hamohawk1

Premiership Player
Feb 18, 2011
3,439
3,038
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Also interesting to see the top five countries in that list are total shithol- oh wait
Australian's have been spun for 50+ years that taxes are bad, and low taxes will lead to a great economy/ benefits for all. There is a mountain of evidence proving the contrary, but to flip the rhetoric is an enormous task.
 

Pessimistic

Make me an Admin!
Sep 13, 2000
77,409
34,825
Melbourne cricket ground. Australia
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Horks
yes, I read it

The issue with the Greens tax policies are:
1) they are misleading in their representations for good reason
2) the taxes are for an agenda other than generating tax


Lets look at misleading statements on just one policy:

1) The mining, oil and gas industries exploit our environment for their own super-profits
please feel free to invest in mining to see how super profits actually are. The average return in mining is 6%.......super!

2) an unfair tax system means many don’t pay for these natural resources
are they suggesting they don't pay for these resources upfront when tenements are pegged? If so, that conveniently ignores the royalties, rates and taxes, corporate taxes, GST, payroll etc and the exploration to discover the resources

3) Companies in some industries make super profits not because of their skill, innovation or hard work but because government sets the regulatory and tax settings in their favour.
Are they suggesting mining isn't a highly innovative sector? what tax and regulatory settings are they referring to?

4) Australia is now the world’s biggest gas exporter. These offshore gas companies will make billions over the next 40 years but never pay a cent in royalties and may never pay a cent in tax either. They get our gas resources completely free and the major parties won’t change that arrangement because they have received millions in donations from these companies.
The PRRT is always under review based on strategic national interest
PRRT has applied to offshore petroleum projects (except for the North West Shelf project and the Joint Petroleum Development Area) since 1987. The Bass Strait project has been subject to PRRT since 1990.
In 2012, the PRRT regime was applied to onshore petroleum projects and the North West Shelf project but not to the Joint Petroleum Development Area.
From 1 July 2019, onshore petroleum projects were removed from the scope of the PRRT. As a result, provisions that relate to initial amounts of starting base expenditure and the consolidation single entity rule were repealed.

5) The Greens would set royalties for gas extraction and wind back the staggering $367 billion worth of tax credits they are sitting on.
This is essentially removing depreciation and promoting speculation and gambling over long term investment

6) For mining companies, we would implement the recommendations of the Henry Tax Review by introducing a 40% super-profits tax on very profitable mining ventures to ensure more wealth is shared with the community.
Then why did they support taxing all mining companies rather than as propsed by Ken Henry?



That's almost 100% misleading and deceptive wording in one policy
we always compare with Anglo nations, but we should also be comparing with Middle East oil nations
 

Johnny Bananas

Norm Smith Medallist
Sep 10, 2010
6,135
7,447
A sugar refinery
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
the issue is well discussed including https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-02-01/political-donations-likened-to-money-laundering/8227952

one group of note is the conservation council
I asked you to prove it, not to waste my time with irrelevant garbage. There's practically nothing there about the Greens save for them having multiple branches, and that they voluntarily declare all donations over $1000. Thing is, the point about multiple branches allowing a $117 000 donation to be kept private only works if they don't voluntarily declare all donations over $1000. So whatever point you were trying to make with this article, you failed.

Do tell me about the corporations that want to funnel money to the Greens through the Conservation Council, I'm interested to hear this.
 

Johnny Bananas

Norm Smith Medallist
Sep 10, 2010
6,135
7,447
A sugar refinery
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
2) the taxes are for an agenda other than generating tax
That's only an issue if you're on the side of those against that agenda. Are you on the side of fossil fuels?

1) The mining, oil and gas industries exploit our environment for their own super-profits
please feel free to invest in mining to see how super profits actually are. The average return in mining is 6%.......super!
Oh really? Because coal is at 45%.


2) an unfair tax system means many don’t pay for these natural resources
are they suggesting they don't pay for these resources upfront when tenements are pegged? If so, that conveniently ignores the royalties, rates and taxes, corporate taxes, GST, payroll etc and the exploration to discover the resources
No, they're suggesting that tax credits and tax avoidance wipe out most or all of the taxes they're due to pay. According to the Australia Institute, "last year [2013-14] the coal industry paid 12% company tax rate, well below the average rate of 17.6% paid by Australian industries. Glencore avoided paying any tax at all for its Australian mines for the last three years".

Payroll tax would be chicken feed to a mining company considering how few people they employ per million in revenue. Royalties are a joke, they give massive discounts to the worst quality of coal.


Someone is being misleading here, but it isn't the Greens.

3) Companies in some industries make super profits not because of their skill, innovation or hard work but because government sets the regulatory and tax settings in their favour.
Are they suggesting mining isn't a highly innovative sector? what tax and regulatory settings are they referring to?
No, they're suggesting the super profits come because of tax credits and tax avoidance rather than innovation. I'm noticing a pattern here, things that you claim are "misleading" or "deceptive" on the part of the Greens are just you intentionally misreading their words to suit your own agenda.

I detailed some of the tax and regulatory settings above, I'm sure there are many others that I haven't covered.

4) Australia is now the world’s biggest gas exporter. These offshore gas companies will make billions over the next 40 years but never pay a cent in royalties and may never pay a cent in tax either. They get our gas resources completely free and the major parties won’t change that arrangement because they have received millions in donations from these companies.
The PRRT is always under review based on strategic national interest
PRRT has applied to offshore petroleum projects (except for the North West Shelf project and the Joint Petroleum Development Area) since 1987. The Bass Strait project has been subject to PRRT since 1990.
In 2012, the PRRT regime was applied to onshore petroleum projects and the North West Shelf project but not to the Joint Petroleum Development Area.
From 1 July 2019, onshore petroleum projects were removed from the scope of the PRRT. As a result, provisions that relate to initial amounts of starting base expenditure and the consolidation single entity rule were repealed.
That's lovely. But it doesn't change the fact that the PRRT peaked in revenue in 2001 and have been in decline ever since, according to The Australian.

Or the fact that the oil and gas industries claimed $324 billion in tax credits in 2017-18 (about 70% of the Federal Government's total revenue), according to the ABC.

Or that only 6 of 138 oil and gas projects in Australia paid the PRRT at all.

Or that we export as much gas as Qatar, for which they earn $26.6 billion, and we earn $0.6 billion, less than we earn from beer taxes, according to SMH. And of that $0.6 billion, $0 is from federal royalties.

In short, the PRRT is an ineffective tax, failing to capture fair value for the government and prone to rorting, for all the reasons detailed here:

5) The Greens would set royalties for gas extraction and wind back the staggering $367 billion worth of tax credits they are sitting on.
This is essentially removing depreciation and promoting speculation and gambling over long term investment
It's disingenuous to suggest it's all from depreciation, when it's mostly from massive losses being reported earlier in a project that are carried over to wipe out any tax burden through the years it's profitable. We earn a piddling amount from that investment, so I have to ask what the benefit to us is from the existing state of affairs.

6) For mining companies, we would implement the recommendations of the Henry Tax Review by introducing a 40% super-profits tax on very profitable mining ventures to ensure more wealth is shared with the community.
Then why did they support taxing all mining companies rather than as propsed by Ken Henry?
As stated in that paragraph, it doesn't apply to all mining companies, only those with super profits.

That's almost 100% misleading and deceptive wording in one policy
I'll say it again, just repeating garbage doesn't make it true. Its ironic you're accusing the Greens of being misleading and deceptive when you've created numerous straw man arguments.
 
Last edited:

Power Raid

TheBrownDog
Oct 15, 2004
68,269
57,892
West Perth
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
That's only an issue if you're on the side of those against that agenda. Are you on the side of fossil fuels?
Our mining fund does not invest in uranium, met coal, coking coal by mandate and we haven't invested in O&G for a decade. Corporately though we have helped India gain a significant position in Australian mining from copper, nickel, iron, met coal and rare earths.

I personally just bought shares in gas, as a vote for renewables is a vote for big gas.


Oh really? Because coal is at 45%.

oh really makes you sound stupid, especially when you link a specific commodity in production when challenging long term returns across an industry that has many commodities and different phases including exploration, development and production.

For the record coal producers profit margins will increase through the roof as they have very little competition in funding

No, they're suggesting that tax credits and tax avoidance wipe out most or all of the taxes they're due to pay. According to the Australia Institute, "last year [2013-14] the coal industry paid 12% company tax rate, well below the average rate of 17.6% paid by Australian industries. Glencore avoided paying any tax at all for its Australian mines for the last three years".
what are these magical tax credits? past losses? depreciation of capital?

Last year? you mean 2013/14 when much of the industry was in decline......like when Fortsecue and others nearly went bust and scrambling to reduce costs?

In regards to Glencore, I would ban its operation here in Australia. They were born from an illegal venture, the CEO wanted for criminal charges and the culture has never changed. That said, despite my grievances, we have an ATO who can investigate. If there are any transfer pricing issues, this should be the example to support higher GST and lowering income taxes to strike the right balance meaning transfer pricing can not exist.

Payroll tax would be chicken feed to a mining company considering how few people they employ per million in revenue. Royalties are a joke, they give massive discounts to the worst quality of coal.
come to Perth son and you'll see the benefit of royalties. Even in Covid, we are pumping out surpluses.

Payroll is not insignificant but it should be scrapped, as taxing employment is not helpful


Someone is being misleading here, but it isn't the Greens.
Did you even read your own link?

No, they're suggesting the super profits come because of tax credits and tax avoidance rather than innovation. I'm noticing a pattern here, things that you claim are "misleading" or "deceptive" on the part of the Greens are just you intentionally misreading their words to suit your own agenda.

I detailed some of the tax and regulatory settings above, I'm sure there are many others that I haven't covered.
go back and read the question. Why would the question refer to innovation, skill or hard work if not relevant and also suggesting the mining industry does not rely upon these attributes. The answer to why is an attempt to mislead readers and lead the believers down a certain way of thinking, before they introduce false statements.

That's lovely. But it doesn't change the fact that the PRRT peaked in revenue in 2001 and have been in decline ever since, according to The Australian.

Or the fact that the oil and gas industries claimed $324 billion in tax credits in 2017-18 (about 70% of the Federal Government's total revenue), according to the ABC.

Or that only 6 of 138 oil and gas projects in Australia paid the PRRT at all.

Or that we export as much gas as Qatar, for which they earn $26.6 billion, and we earn $0.6 billion, less than we earn from beer taxes, according to SMH. And of that $0.6 billion, $0 is from federal royalties.

In short, the PRRT is an ineffective tax, failing to capture fair value for the government and prone to rorting, for all the reasons detailed here:


It's disingenuous to suggest it's all from depreciation, when it's mostly from massive losses being reported earlier in a project that are carried over to wipe out any tax burden through the years it's profitable. We earn a piddling amount from that investment, so I have to ask what the benefit to us is from the existing state of affairs.


As stated in that paragraph, it doesn't apply to all mining companies, only those with super profits.


I'll say it again, just repeating garbage doesn't make it true. Its ironic you're accusing the Greens of being misleading and deceptive when you've created numerous straw man arguments.
Your link refers to a LNG boom! when it is actually a bust and has been tough for a long time.

It also ignores there is no shortage of LNG on the planet, highlighting the value of a commodity as calculated by the PRRT is correct. The value is the infrastructure not the reserve.

I can't see the comparison to Qatar's $26.6 billion but note the $0.6b was probably 2015. Two things stand out
1) WA collected $1.3B to the total take was $1.9b
2) but how does that compare to Qatar's $26.6b? well our entire revenue was $19.7b on the NWS. It should be noted Qatar's industry is 4 times ours.

It would also be helpful to understand what is being compared. Are they comparing income taxes, state royalties, federal royalties (including PRRT) or just some taxes. Can you confirm? What I can confirm is they are not including the 10% state royalties.

That said I am pro increasing mining taxes and always have been. I also note experts are calling for a royalty system rather than a complex formula. This is the logical pathway but not one Australia wants, as they would prefer to undermine the states than have proper taxation systems.
 

Power Raid

TheBrownDog
Oct 15, 2004
68,269
57,892
West Perth
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
That's only an issue if you're on the side of those against that agenda. Are you on the side of fossil fuels?


Oh really? Because coal is at 45%.



No, they're suggesting that tax credits and tax avoidance wipe out most or all of the taxes they're due to pay. According to the Australia Institute, "last year [2013-14] the coal industry paid 12% company tax rate, well below the average rate of 17.6% paid by Australian industries. Glencore avoided paying any tax at all for its Australian mines for the last three years".

Payroll tax would be chicken feed to a mining company considering how few people they employ per million in revenue. Royalties are a joke, they give massive discounts to the worst quality of coal.


Someone is being misleading here, but it isn't the Greens.


No, they're suggesting the super profits come because of tax credits and tax avoidance rather than innovation. I'm noticing a pattern here, things that you claim are "misleading" or "deceptive" on the part of the Greens are just you intentionally misreading their words to suit your own agenda.

I detailed some of the tax and regulatory settings above, I'm sure there are many others that I haven't covered.


That's lovely. But it doesn't change the fact that the PRRT peaked in revenue in 2001 and have been in decline ever since, according to The Australian.

Or the fact that the oil and gas industries claimed $324 billion in tax credits in 2017-18 (about 70% of the Federal Government's total revenue), according to the ABC.

Or that only 6 of 138 oil and gas projects in Australia paid the PRRT at all.

Or that we export as much gas as Qatar, for which they earn $26.6 billion, and we earn $0.6 billion, less than we earn from beer taxes, according to SMH. And of that $0.6 billion, $0 is from federal royalties.

In short, the PRRT is an ineffective tax, failing to capture fair value for the government and prone to rorting, for all the reasons detailed here:


It's disingenuous to suggest it's all from depreciation, when it's mostly from massive losses being reported earlier in a project that are carried over to wipe out any tax burden through the years it's profitable. We earn a piddling amount from that investment, so I have to ask what the benefit to us is from the existing state of affairs.


As stated in that paragraph, it doesn't apply to all mining companies, only those with super profits.


I'll say it again, just repeating garbage doesn't make it true. Its ironic you're accusing the Greens of being misleading and deceptive when you've created numerous straw man arguments.
just did a little review of Qatar vs Aus tax

35% vs 30% with the same concept of carried forward tax losses
10% carried interest vs 10% royalty
No PRRT vs PRRT

very similar rates

It would be interesting to here a little more detail on the numbers
 

melbournemartin

Brownlow Medallist
Jul 22, 2003
23,190
5,213
Genève
AFL Club
Melbourne
Other Teams
Genève-Servette HC, Pittsburgh Pens
Need proportional representation. Greens get 10% of the votes for 1 seat. That's not right.

And I'd still say that's not right if One Nation or any other small party was getting screwed over.
 

Power Raid

TheBrownDog
Oct 15, 2004
68,269
57,892
West Perth
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
Need proportional representation. Greens get 10% of the votes for 1 seat. That's not right.

And I'd still say that's not right if One Nation or any other small party was getting screwed over.
that is what the upper house is for

In the lower house, it is an important protection, to protect the electorate from the dangerous 10% fringe on either side of politics
 

Remove this Banner Ad