Europe Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

[Zidane98]

Good for Taras.
Atlanticcouncil is straight out US propaganda.

So what exactly is the propaganda in his research? The source is Taras Kuzio who has been based in Kyiv since the USSR days - Atlantic Council are merely publicising his research. He's pretty well known and respected. Please debunk the narrative of his article for us all. The essence of it is Russian & Ukranian relations are beyond repair which is pretty accurate from what I can ascertain.


The only way for the Russo-Ukranian relationship to be repaired now is a completely new progressive government to take over in Moscow. Putin/Lavrov & co are cold war era war mongering dinosaurs. The world is better off without them.

 

[rank and file]

So what exactly is the propaganda in his research? The source is Taras Kuzio who has been based in Kyiv since the USSR days - Atlantic Council are merely publicising his research. He's pretty well known and respected. Please debunk the narrative of his article for us all. The essence of it is Russian & Ukranian relations are beyond repair which is pretty accurate from what I can ascertain.


The only way for the Russo-Ukranian relationship to be repaired now is a completely new progressive government to take over in Moscow. Putin/Lavrov & co are cold war era war mongering dinosaurs. The world is better off without them.

Russia and Ukraine can't be friends.
Pulitzer Prize incoming.
Anything that comes out of the Atlantic Council should be taken with a grain of salt.
Facebook’s partnership with the Atlantic Council

Mod Edit:

World Socialist Web Site - Bias and Credibility

LEFT BIAS These media sources are moderately to strongly biased toward liberal causes through story selection and/or political affiliation. They may

mediabiasfactcheck.com

Overall, we rate the World Socialist Web Site (WSWS) as strongly Left Biased based on promoting anti-capitalist, socialist viewpoints. We also rate them as Mostly Factual in reporting rather than High due to the use of some sources that promote conspiracy theories.

 

[Zidane98]

Russia and Ukraine can't be friends.
Pulitzer Prize incoming.
Anything that comes out of the Atlantic Council should be taken with a grain of salt.
Facebook’s partnership with the Atlantic Council

Taras Kuzio is not the Atlantic Council. He is the author here - Atlantic Council merely published his article.

Russia & Ukraine could be friends again if Russia went down the Chinese belt & road path with Ukraine and got rid of all their cold war era dinosaurs.

Next up Russia will lose out to China as the dominant power in Central Asia.

 

[rank and file]

Taras Kuzio is not the Atlantic Council. He is the author here - Atlantic Council merely published his article.

Russia & Ukraine could be friends again if Russia went down the Chinese belt & road path with Ukraine and got rid of all their cold war era dinosaurs.

Next up Russia will lose out to China as the dominant power in Central Asia.

No doubt the author is a stand up guy.
I'm just suss on anything that the AC does.

 

[Aussie in exile]

The soviet union and Nazi Germany alliance at the start of the 2nd world war which shows the Soviet union and Russias real colours

Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact: Hitler, Stalin & WWII - HISTORY

The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was a non-aggression pact signed in 1939 by former enemies Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union shortly before World War II broke out.

www.history.com

 

[Zidane98]

The soviet union and Nazi Germany alliance at the start of the 2nd world war which shows the Soviet union and Russias real colours

Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact: Hitler, Stalin & WWII - HISTORY

The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was a non-aggression pact signed in 1939 by former enemies Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union shortly before World War II broke out.

www.history.com

So much this. Stalin was a Nazi collaborator and the only reason he stopped being one is Hitler double crossing him and deciding to annex USSR territory.

 

[Episode IV]

Wagner is a Neo Nazi group. Putin's Russia are the worst fascists since Hitler. Claiming Ukranians don't exist, torturing / raping / killing anyone who dares to be or speak Ukranian.

The biggest Nazi problems in Ukraine are from invading Russians.

Speaks Ukrainian?
Well, now. Are you aware of Ukrainian laws enacted back in 2016, was it, with regard to that?

 

[jatz14]

That sounded intriguing so you got me doing a search. Seems like it's been fairly common knowledge for almost a decade. Here's a report from 2014.

German TV Shows Nazi Symbols on Helmets of Ukraine Soldiers

In a ZDF report on the fragile cease-fire in eastern Ukraine, images were shown of soldiers wearing combat helmets with SS insignia and swastikas.

www.nbcnews.com

I also came across footage from a few days ago where Wagner soldiers show some weapons with interesting insignia on them found in Ukrainian positions they have just taken over. Won't link to it though until I can find independent confirmation.

Given they found Russians with Nazi paraphernalia that seemed like it was intended to be found amongst Ukrainian stuff, take it with a pinch of salt.

And, yes, there are Nazis in Ukraine, there are also Nazis in Australia. Do you dispute this? If so, does this give other countries (that will also have Nazis), the right to invade us, or mean we dont have the right to defend ourselves?

As an amusing little aside, Russia made a pamphlet showing a Nazi parade, to be distributed to conquered territories, as part of their justification of the war. Unfortunately, when the original photo was tracked down, it was from a Russian newspaper, covering a Nazi parade, in Moscow.

 

[Zidane98]

Speaks Ukrainian?
Well, now. Are you aware of Ukrainian laws enacted back in 2016, was it, with regard to that?

What laws are they? Enlighten us.

 

[mighty tiges]

Yep, there's a few reports on this now. Is it a diversion?

 

[jatz14]

Speaks Ukrainian?
Well, now. Are you aware of Ukrainian laws enacted back in 2016, was it, with regard to that?

Do you mean 2019?

There was a law passed that made Ukrainian the language of the public service, forcing most into using Ukrainian in public affairs. Possibly as a reult of being repeatedly attacked by Russian speakers? I dont know, just a wild guess.

This law was passed by the outgoing president who campaigned on protecting and entrenching Ukrainian, and who lost the election, to the predominantly Russian speaking Zelensky, who opposed the law change.

Ahh, Zelensky, the Russian speaking Jewish Nazi, oppressor of the Russian language, what a conundrum he is.

 

[Episode IV]

What laws are they? Enlighten us.

Do you need to be told what to think? Got a ring in your nose you instilled with certain rights and permissions as to who is allowed to tie a string to it?
Is "Got link?" your mantra?

Fine. Here's one, quick search, about 5 seconds... about as much time as it took for you to write that reply, I imagine.
Human rights watch.

New Language Requirement Raises Concerns in Ukraine

A new legal provision on the use of the Ukrainian language, part of a broader state language law, raises concerns about protection for minority languages.

www.hrw.org

 

[Episode IV]

Do you mean 2019?

There was a law passed that made Ukrainian the language of the public service, forcing most into using Ukrainian in public affairs. Possibly as a reult of being repeatedly attacked by Russian speakers? I dont know, just a wild guess.

This law was passed by the outgoing president who campaigned on protecting and entrenching Ukrainian, and who lost the election, to the predominantly Russian speaking Zelensky, who opposed the law change.

Ahh, Zelensky, the Russian speaking Jewish Nazi, oppressor of the Russian language, what a conundrum he is.

I didn't say anything about Zelensky, nor did I expound upon my views of who passed it or why.
Most Ukrainians in the East are of Russian descent. The Holodomor.
East and West Ukraine are very different. It is a key to understanding all of this.

 

[jatz14]

The widespread reporting of this incident has the sole purpose of making the Russians look foolish - it's propaganda.
Which is not to say it didn't happen; I'm of a mind to believe it did, as much as one can belief anything reported on these days as being unvarnished gospel. Twitter, deepfakes... who knows anything, really.

The best propaganda is that which is real, and spun for maximum effect.
I've little doubt that there have been many such incidents in this war so far. Many. On both sides.
The propagandic advantage of this one, is that it occurred within Russian territory. Easily pointed at, easily highlighted, undeniable. Media fodder.

While it seems kosher to deride the prowess of Russia's military right now, I feel it necessary to point that incidents such as these... Blue on Blue (or Green on Blue, in light of other events in recent years) are actually quite commonplace. I'm going to list only one or two.

In 1943, in the immediate aftermath of the ANZIO landings, Allied anti-aircraft batteries broke up and destroyed an entire American paratrooper landing further inland in order to secure the bridgehead. Miscommunications ensured that the anti-aircraft gunners, who were jittery as a result of being under constant attack from the Luftwaffe since the landings began and were apparently uninformed that an airborne drop was planned, opened fire on unidentified aircraft 400 feet above and broke up the attack completely - causing over 300 casualties among the 504th parachute infantry regiment.
They made a movie about the 300 once. CGI, mostly. The blood wasn't real. Very heroic.
Think about those 300 instead. The paratroopers. That's reality.

The London Blitz in World War 2 was the result of the Germans (Hitler in a rage) shifting their attention to London, previously not a deliberate target, as a result of a single English bombing raid over Berlin. Which was a retaliation for a few bombs dropped over London by an off-course German bomber, mistaken for a deliberate strike.
One might say the London Blitz itself went down in historical ignominy due to a simple navigational error. Strangest thing about that being that the shifting of attention by the Germans from bombing British airfields to London itself is acknowledged as a significant factor in allowing the RAF some respite, which contributed to the eventual victory of the RAF over the Luftwaffe.

During the Gulf War in the 90's, American tanks were destroyed by friendly fire from their own unit commanders when an Iraqi Republican Guard unit tried using grenade launchers against tanks and AFV's. Other American tank commanders, using thermal imaging, mistook the impact flashes and heat signatures as enemy fire, returned it and destroyed "the enemy" accordingly... which later turned out to be 3 American Bradleys and two M1 Abrams. 31 casualities.
Note that those (6 who died) were the only casualties that armoured brigade suffered during the entire Gulf War.
Think they made a movie loosely based on that one. Denzel Washington? Might have to look that up.

I don't remember exact numbers, but I've read somewhere that a quarter or so of all American and allied forces casualties during the entire Gulf War were a direct result of blue on blue incidents.

"Friendly Fire" incidents can happen for a variety or reasons. Poor communication. Navigational errors. Technological failures.
Thing to remember is that this isn't some video game you're playing in your room on your nice little X-Box your parents bought you for Christmas. Those targets aren't clearly deliminated by maps you can press a key to pop up when you get confused as to where you are, nor do they have little green or red pips above their heads to tell you they're the enemy so its safe to pull the trigger. You don't always have a choice as to when or where you drop your ordinance, and you're often told when to and when not to by other people, elsewhere, looking at a map relying on information on where they think you are - and sometimes, your equipment fails or malfunctions.

It's real. The people are real. They're not "Orcs", they're not incompetent. They're human beings, in a war.
Please try to remember that.

Watch this. Right to the very end. Read the transcriptions. Try to imagine you're the ones in those planes. Take care to note just how much awareness and vision a pilot in an aircraft actually has, how reliant they are upon the information they've been given. Imagine if someone had had a movie camera to document the destruction of that American Paratrooper force at the hands of its own AA fire.
If you're capable.

Then watch the second one, to see how its spun at top levels (different incident). And after that, of course, there's Bigfooty. Jokes about Orcs.

And see if you can figure out why I have more sympathy for people involved in this sort of incident, whichever "side" they're on, than I'll ever have for the likes of you.

Friendly Fire Incident from Iraq War

An old video has re-surfaced depicting a friendly fire incident in Iraq. One British soldier was killed as a result. A thorough investigation was launched, resulting in both pilots being cleared of any wrongdoing.

www.military.com

Pentagon: No laws of War Broken in 2019 US Airstrike

A Pentagon investigation of a 2019 U.S. military airstrike in Syria that killed dozens, including women and childen, has concluded that U.S. troops did not violate the laws of war or deliberately cause civilian casualties. (May 18) AP

www.military.com

It was the Russian equivalent or a JDAM, with a glide distance of something like 50 km. The accident happened about 20 ks or so from the border and about 40 - 50 from areas the Russians had been bombing.

The dropped glide bombs, they didn't glide.

Boom.

It got exactly as much press as dropping bombs of that size on your own cities would warrant.

Im not sure what relevance any of the other stuff you posted has to anything?

 

[jatz14]

Do you need to be told what to think? Got a ring in your nose you instilled with certain rights and permissions as to who is allowed to tie a string to it?
Is "Got link?" your mantra?

Fine. Here's one, quick search, about 5 seconds... about as much time as it took for you to write that reply, I imagine.
Human rights watch.

New Language Requirement Raises Concerns in Ukraine

A new legal provision on the use of the Ukrainian language, part of a broader state language law, raises concerns about protection for minority languages.

www.hrw.org

So, 2016 then?

Sounds like your all over this.

 

[Episode IV]

It was the Russian equivalent or a JDAM, with a glide distance of something like 50 km. The accident happened about 20 ks or so from the border and about 40 - 50 from areas the Russians had been bombing.

The dropped glide bombs, they didn't glide.

Boom.

It got exactly as much press as dropping bombs of that size on your own cities would warrant.

Im not sure what relevance any of the other stuff you posted has to anything?

No, you probably don't have any awareness of what anything else I posted with regard to what anything else has to do with anything. I've formulated an opinion as to that much at least. The reference to technical failure might be a clue though. Maybe navigational error, maybe both.
I did, however, make a point that such an incident was widely reported when there have in all likelihood been many such incidents, on both sides, for different reasons, which did not make the news. Very few of them would have anything to do with Orcs.

My reaction was based upon that posters (and others) reaction to it, and the leeway a certain ideological bent has to make comments on it without reprisal, censure or even comment in general. It's called propaganda. Specifically, in this case, the dehumanisation of the enemy.

It had nothing to do with you, and I'm wondering why you're so motivated to defend that sort of crap from the other poster.
Do you understand that much, or do I form an opinion of you in general right here and now and leave you to it?

 

[Episode IV]

So, 2016 then?

Sounds like your all over this.

With a question mark, I remembered reading it, didn't look it up for specifics, and got the year wrong. It happens sometimes when you are a general reader and not someone who hurriedly rushes to Wikipedia or whatever to make a point.

Is this your point of contention? That all you got?

*oh, and btw.. if you're into technicalities, it's "you're"

 

[Mobbs]

The widespread reporting of this incident has the sole purpose of making the Russians look foolish - it's propaganda.
Which is not to say it didn't happen; I'm of a mind to believe it did, as much as one can belief anything reported on these days as being unvarnished gospel. Twitter, deepfakes... who knows anything, really.

The best propaganda is that which is real, and spun for maximum effect.
I've little doubt that there have been many such incidents in this war so far. Many. On both sides.
The propagandic advantage of this one, is that it occurred within Russian territory. Easily pointed at, easily highlighted, undeniable. Media fodder.

While it seems kosher to deride the prowess of Russia's military right now, I feel it necessary to point that incidents such as these... Blue on Blue (or Green on Blue, in light of other events in recent years) are actually quite commonplace. I'm going to list only one or two.

In 1943, in the immediate aftermath of the ANZIO landings, Allied anti-aircraft batteries broke up and destroyed an entire American paratrooper landing further inland in order to secure the bridgehead. Miscommunications ensured that the anti-aircraft gunners, who were jittery as a result of being under constant attack from the Luftwaffe since the landings began and were apparently uninformed that an airborne drop was planned, opened fire on unidentified aircraft 400 feet above and broke up the attack completely - causing over 300 casualties among the 504th parachute infantry regiment.
They made a movie about the 300 once. CGI, mostly. The blood wasn't real. Very heroic.
Think about those 300 instead. The paratroopers. That's reality.

The London Blitz in World War 2 was the result of the Germans (Hitler in a rage) shifting their attention to London, previously not a deliberate target, as a result of a single English bombing raid over Berlin. Which was a retaliation for a few bombs dropped over London by an off-course German bomber, mistaken for a deliberate strike.
One might say the London Blitz itself went down in historical ignominy due to a simple navigational error. Strangest thing about that being that the shifting of attention by the Germans from bombing British airfields to London itself is acknowledged as a significant factor in allowing the RAF some respite, which contributed to the eventual victory of the RAF over the Luftwaffe.

During the Gulf War in the 90's, American tanks were destroyed by friendly fire from their own unit commanders when an Iraqi Republican Guard unit tried using grenade launchers against tanks and AFV's. Other American tank commanders, using thermal imaging, mistook the impact flashes and heat signatures as enemy fire, returned it and destroyed "the enemy" accordingly... which later turned out to be 3 American Bradleys and two M1 Abrams. 31 casualities.
Note that those (6 who died) were the only casualties that armoured brigade suffered during the entire Gulf War.
Think they made a movie loosely based on that one. Denzel Washington? Might have to look that up.

I don't remember exact numbers, but I've read somewhere that a quarter or so of all American and allied forces casualties during the entire Gulf War were a direct result of blue on blue incidents.

"Friendly Fire" incidents can happen for a variety or reasons. Poor communication. Navigational errors. Technological failures.
Thing to remember is that this isn't some video game you're playing in your room on your nice little X-Box your parents bought you for Christmas. Those targets aren't clearly deliminated by maps you can press a key to pop up when you get confused as to where you are, nor do they have little green or red pips above their heads to tell you they're the enemy so its safe to pull the trigger. You don't always have a choice as to when or where you drop your ordinance, and you're often told when to and when not to by other people, elsewhere, looking at a map relying on information on where they think you are - and sometimes, your equipment fails or malfunctions.

It's real. The people are real. They're not "Orcs", they're not incompetent. They're human beings, in a war.
Please try to remember that.

Watch this. Right to the very end. Read the transcriptions. Try to imagine you're the ones in those planes. Take care to note just how much awareness and vision a pilot in an aircraft actually has, how reliant they are upon the information they've been given. Imagine if someone had had a movie camera to document the destruction of that American Paratrooper force at the hands of its own AA fire.
If you're capable.

Then watch the second one, to see how its spun at top levels (different incident). And after that, of course, there's Bigfooty. Jokes about Orcs.

And see if you can figure out why I have more sympathy for people involved in this sort of incident, whichever "side" they're on, than I'll ever have for the likes of you.

Friendly Fire Incident from Iraq War

An old video has re-surfaced depicting a friendly fire incident in Iraq. One British soldier was killed as a result. A thorough investigation was launched, resulting in both pilots being cleared of any wrongdoing.

www.military.com

Pentagon: No laws of War Broken in 2019 US Airstrike

A Pentagon investigation of a 2019 U.S. military airstrike in Syria that killed dozens, including women and childen, has concluded that U.S. troops did not violate the laws of war or deliberately cause civilian casualties. (May 18) AP

www.military.com

What has happened? The last time I followed the story of the bomb hitting Belgorod, it was reported there were about 3 or 4 injuries, no deaths. I thought the second find was an unexploded missile which (afaik) still hasn't exploded. Did something else happen?

 

[Episode IV]

What has happened? The last time I followed the story of the bomb hitting Belgorod, it was reported there were about 3 or 4 injuries, no deaths. I thought the second find was an unexploded missile which (afaik) still hasn't exploded. Did something else happen?

Probably, I don't know. I don't think anyone does. There was a missile that hit Poland too, again making the news because it happened outside the accepted boundaries of conflict.

I doubt this is the only FF incident in the war so far. Far more likely to happen in infantry engagements than something of this magnitude. Most of them, we'll never hear about.

 

[Mobbs]

Probably, I don't know. I don't think anyone does. There was a missile that hit Poland too, again making the news because it happened outside the accepted boundaries of conflict.

I doubt this is the only FF incident in the war so far. Far more likely to happen in infantry engagements than something of this magnitude. Most of them, we'll never hear about.

Yeah when replying I was gonna say that there was the UA air defense missile that landed in Poland. I think there was a casualty, too. Some months ago now, if that's what you mean.

I also remember one FF incident on the UA side because for a start it made media under assumption it was an RF aircraft which was downed. I might be mistaken, but I think it came from a manpad too (hit his own aircraft). It did get reported, where I watch news, anyway. I dunno if we'd call these propaganda, though, because these are events and they are newsworthy.

And if the responses feel a bit partisan, well I'd be a bit disappointed if they weren't. Russia accidentally dropped a missile on their own population while trying to invade another sovereign nation. UA accidentally dropped a missile on a neighbouring country while trying to defend against invasion from another neighbouring nation. The risk - of both - could have been avoided if RF had not launched an invasion.

 

[footyfan1978]

The widespread reporting of this incident has the sole purpose of making the Russians look foolish

They are foolish and so are you after a few lines of your weird rant... rofl

So we have our first Freo vatnik. Got it.

 

[Zidane98]

Given they found Russians with Nazi paraphernalia that seemed like it was intended to be found amongst Ukrainian stuff, take it with a pinch of salt.

And, yes, there are Nazis in Ukraine, there are also Nazis in Australia. Do you dispute this? If so, does this give other countries (that will also have Nazis), the right to invade us, or mean we dont have the right to defend ourselves?

As an amusing little aside, Russia made a pamphlet showing a Nazi parade, to be distributed to conquered territories, as part of their justification of the war. Unfortunately, when the original photo was tracked down, it was from a Russian newspaper, covering a Nazi parade, in Moscow.

Not to mention the recently staged video which showed "Nazi" Ukranian soldiers terrorising a Russian speaking family for speaking Russian.

When it was absolutely proven this video was staged deep in Russian controlled Donbas it was quietly removed from MFA Russia's social media pages with not a single apology for posting bs.

 

[Nothing]

They are foolish and so are you after a few lines of your weird rant... rofl

So we have our first Freo vatnik. Got it.

We've had a couple. Who could forget BlueE and his diatribes

 

[Zidane98]

We've had a couple. Who could forget BlueE and his diatribes

Some of these vatniks simply do not have the most aware of minds.

 

[footyfan1978]

We've had a couple. Who could forget BlueE and his diatribes

Cannot remember him sorry. Must have been in earlier thread.
Anyway, so Freo not far behind Richmond on vatnik leaderboard?