Backline without Sicily

[Del33640]

I definitely agree with this, but I think that playing that Gunston role where he's naturally spending some serious time back, it should take some of that pressure to be a forward only away from him.

At least in theory it does. You could get the best of Sicily in defence, and the added bonus of him being released to attack as well.

No argument about his career as a forward. But I do think he's developed a lot since then, and him being given the hybrid role might well work - even if he does it switching with someone like Burton between the roles.

They could both elevate themselves again in a role like this, in theory at least.

Better still, it fits them all in, should Birch come back.

My only concern with that is that there is a reason Sicily was moved down back. He wasn't working up forward, at least not as well as we'd have liked. As soon as he went to defence, it seemed to switch something on that he couldn't switch on up forward. When up forward he had a tendency to look lazy and to be playing without intensity. For whatever reason, that has never been a problem when he has been down back. On paper, his attributes that make him good in defence, should make him good up forward, perhaps even better up forward given his main weakness is one-on-one defending. However given we've tried it already with much more limited success, I'd be concerned. Perhaps the workrate and intensity he's shown down back can now be translated into his game as a forward. It is probably worth the experiment, but I don't think we can be certain he's going to be as good forward as he has been back - even if he was a forward to start with - given the evidence we've seen across his senior career so far.

 

[hk89]

I definitely agree with this, but I think that playing that Gunston role where he's naturally spending some serious time back, it should take some of that pressure to be a forward only away from him.

At least in theory it does. You could get the best of Sicily in defence, and the added bonus of him being released to attack as well.

No argument about his career as a forward. But I do think he's developed a lot since then, and him being given the hybrid role might well work - even if he does it switching with someone like Burton between the roles.

I agree he's definitely developed and is also a much more mature player now, and given his attributes, it would be interesting to see how he'd go again forward. I wouldn't be keen to experiment too much this year though. Our backline has been good for most of the year, and experimenting with a structure in finals that we can't have properly tested out beforehand is too much of a risk for mine. Will be interesting to see how our structures change for next year, and I'd guess this is one that will be on the table. We'd have to have one of the more flexible backline structures in the competition. Players in the back half that played heaps of junior (or even AFL) footy forward includes (off the top of my head):
Sicily,
Burton,
Hardwick,
Burgoyne

We probably lack a genuine KP height player who can switch both ends, and Hardwick seems the least likely to be swapped around, but it still gives Clarko some tactical flexibility, which other than Burgoyne he hasn't used much so far (Sicily has been pushed up a bit further in some games, but all our defenders push pretty high these days).

Better still, it fits them all in, should Birch come back.

Yes, something will have to give to get him in, and pushing Sicily up isn't the craziest of the options available to make that happen. Would be amazing to see Burton, Birchall, Sicily all taking turns to run the ball out of defence though I think Burgoyne forward like at the start of the year would be the first thing they'd look at.

 

[Davo-27]

This thread should be called, The Midfield without Howe, when he comes back and he's too versatile and tough a player to not play finals, he should play forward, mainly because he has a history of playing poorly in defence, also he plays well forward as a big tough target who is a reasonably good kick for goal.

as for Sicily he comes back no problems, whether he plays back or forward, is up for debate, something i would like to see is Sicily in the backline and Burton played as a forward which he was drafted as, there are a lot of options they can take.

 

[Milkshaker]

Scaphoid injuries can take a long time. Is he (Sicily) actually a chance to come back any time soon?

 

[Jables]

Based on what though? You say Stratton and Hardwick stepped up, how was Sicily stopping that? Our team pressure, ruck dominance and midfield hardness, Geelong's talls being quiet are all major reasons we beat Geelong, none of which has anything to do with Sicily being out.

I'm not against moving him higher up the ground, I just don't see how our backline is better without him.

 

[HedgeFund]

Based on what though? You say Stratton and Hardwick stepped up, how was Sicily stopping that? Our team pressure, ruck dominance and midfield hardness, Geelong's talls being quiet are all major reasons we beat Geelong, none of which has anything to do with Sicily being out.

I'm not against moving him higher up the ground, I just don't see how our backline is better without him.

It’s all about how we have been shuffling match-ups and specific attacking backline roles in his absence.

Brand came in for Sicily, so as a bigger body he took the second opposition tall, Frawley the first.
Burton now takes the third, not the second, and Stratton the fourth, not the third.
Sicily was usually taking the fourth - normally a 182 - 185cm player whom he could roll off as they weren’t a genuine marking target.

With Stratton trading down from third tall to fourth, he has become our preferred “roll off” hybrid player with licence to play looser and take intercept marks. However as he isn’t as great by foot as Sicily, he stays at home more and tends to “dink” the footy to Impey/Hardwick who run/kick it out. Sicily was simply hoofing it long himself (which was usually OK) as his foot skills are superior, and thus hitting blokes in/around 40-70m out from our goal. Stratton has brought Impey/Hardwick into the game a bit more as they tend to feed off him and provide the drive from our backline now.

BUT if we slide Sicily up to the wing upon his return and retain the current back 6 structure, THEN we get both him and Henderson with ball in hand further up the ground and using those foot skills to hit players deeper into attack (ie. 10-40m from goal).

It’s a win-win for mine.

 

[Milkshaker]

It’s all about how we have been shuffling match-ups and specific attacking backline roles in his absence.

Brand came in for Sicily, so as a bigger body he took the second opposition tall, Frawley the first.
Burton now takes the third, not the second, and Stratton the fourth, not the third.
Sicily was usually taking the fourth - normally a 182 - 185cm player whom he could roll off as they weren’t a genuine marking target.

With Stratton trading down from third tall to fourth, he has become our preferred “roll off” hybrid player with licence to play looser and take intercept marks. However as he isn’t as great by foot as Sicily, he stays at home more and tends to “dink” the footy to Impey/Hardwick who run/kick it out. Sicily was simply hoofing it long himself (which was usually OK) as his foot skills are superior, and thus hitting blokes in/around 40-70m out from our goal. Stratton has brought Impey/Hardwick into the game a bit more as they tend to feed off him and provide the drive from our backline now.

BUT if we slide Sicily up to the wing upon his return and retain the current back 6 structure, THEN we get both him and Henderson with ball in hand further up the ground and using those foot skills to hit players deeper into attack (ie. 10-40m from goal).

It’s a win-win for mine.

Regardless of how the season pans out it would be great to see what Clarko can do with the side with all the guns available. The way the defense is performing atm gives Clarko a licence to be more attacking imo. Hence I love your idea of having Hendo and Sicily pumping the ball long via quick transition.

 

[MrFujiMoto]

I am divided on where he plays. I think it's a great problem to have. He is a master at that floating intercept defender. Probably still AA at it. Has elite foot skills too, which is a help. However, Stratton has been next level since sitting in that chair. He has become our barometer.

So slotting Sicily back into that position and moving every other defender back up the rung 1 position (so to speak) might not be a net gain for the team. The strength of Sicily back in that role might negatively impact the output of Burton and Stratton because they are taking bigger boys each week. The counter argument is that there are still so many times that Brand looks like a deer in the headlights. He is the only one back there that I really worry about with disposal, well maybe Chip too.

Where we might get a real net gain is if Sis replaces Miles. He would be very unlucky, but replacing Sis with Miles and moving the chairs that way would really give us a boost I think. Miles would be VERY unlucky if that happened though.

Overall the back six is firing. Maybe moving him up the ground would work, but who comes out? Harry? Hendo has been great the last couple of weeks.

Tough selection calls are a great thing

 

[Hawkboy62]

Brand getting a raw deal in here.

Still think he can become a very good defender. Still young and has some good attributes

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I think the defense has gellled well, and that Sicily will be a bonus as the free man. Similar to last year Brand has improved with continuity of games. Just has to not give away holding frees close to goal as I think his disposal is quite good. Personally Frawley or Impey under pressure make me more nervous. Makes us structurally better and ended up being quite well rated as a key defender last year. Sicily plays best as a roving intercept rather than a lock down defender.

Gunners has been been assisting down back quite a lot, so Sicily back releases him back as a forward, where he has his mojo back. Burton can spend time on the wing or Impey can have midfield rotations. Not sure about bringing Birchall back. From next week it's going to be do or die, and rusty players, or players who haven't been playing with the group is high risk.

 

[Lethality]

The Hawthorn defence becomes extra stingey with Brand in there for some reason. It happened in 2017 or 2016 too.

 

[hk89]

Scaphoid injuries can take a long time. Is he (Sicily) actually a chance to come back any time soon?

I was a little concerned after watching the injury report this week. Words looked like they were being chosen carefully and a hedging 'will not play until finals' instead of 'back in first week of finals' is making me nervous. The former could mean anything up until GF day.

 

[Milkshaker]

I was a little concerned after watching the injury report this week. Words looked like they were being chosen carefully and a hedging 'will not play until finals' instead of 'back in first week of finals' is making me nervous. The former could mean anything up until GF day.

Don't usually watch The Footy Show but was surfing between that and The Front Bar (Dunstall was on that and what a gun he was) last night. Sicily was on TFS and was still wearing a full protective glove. The HFC seem to be taking no chances with his recovery which makes good sense. He is a very measured and articulate young man, completely different to what the media make him out to be, not that this surprises me these days.

 

[Brant]

I was a little concerned after watching the injury report this week. Words looked like they were being chosen carefully and a hedging 'will not play until finals' instead of 'back in first week of finals' is making me nervous. The former could mean anything up until GF day.

So what's to worry about?

We cruise through finals to Grand Final Day & then get Sicily back!

 

[parsons nose]

I want him forward, for a few reasons;
He’s a natural forward- he knows where to run in the forward line. He’s also a good shot for goal, both set shot and on the run.
His aerial abilities give us something that we lack up forward ATM, with Neither Roughie nor Shoey able to clunk one.
The dynamic in the back half has change significantly since he got injured- Miles has emerged and Burton and Frawley have played themselves back into form. Stratton has picked up the slack when it comes to intercepting opposition attacks.
As good as he is at intercepting opposition thrusts, he does have limitations that are more glaring in the backline- being to cute with some of his passes that lead to turnovers and ultimately goals, and he is not strong over the ball when it hits the deck. He is regularly beaten at ground ball contests.
Furthermore, he is persecuted by the umpires and in the scheme of things you rather free kicks awarded against him in our forward fifty rather than the oppositions forward fifty.
For all these reasons, I’d be playing him forward when he’s good to go.

 

[PhatHQ]

Clarko alluded to Sicily coming back as a forward in his presser... finals X factor.

Regardless of the individual views on Brands position, role, abilities ect.. the defence has been better with him in there & we are winning games, tough games over the last 2 weeks.

Yes Sicily is outstanding as an intercept defender but there is consistency & continuity among the current group in the back half.
When he comes back we know that he can go back but with the midfield gaining legs & the run & rebound from the back half I would argue that Sicily can be the Icing in September if it played out that way.
Having Gunston & Sicily rolling through the HHF position & deep forward is a mouthwatering position to be in!

So at this point in time I recon that the back 6-8 that has settled stays as is because it has performed.
Bringing Sicily back as a forward is a luxurious position to be in & strengthens the Hawks most obvious weakness to go deep in September.


Don’t fix it if it aint broke.

 

[Hawk_francais]

This thread should be called, The Midfield without Howe, when he comes back and he's too versatile and tough a player to not play finals, he should play forward, mainly because he has a history of playing poorly in defence, also he plays well forward as a big tough target who is a reasonably good kick for goal.

as for Sicily he comes back no problems, whether he plays back or forward, is up for debate, something i would like to see is Sicily in the backline and Burton played as a forward which he was drafted as, there are a lot of options they can take.

At times this year Howe's spot in the midfield has not been secure, but it'll be interesting to see if he comes straight back in. Big picture probably says yes, I think he's in our plans for the future. Worpel has cemented a midfield spot in the meantime, however. Clarko mentioned last week that Nash was taking Whitecross' mid-forward spot, I suppose it's in reserve for Howe though?

 

[Alite]

I’m pretty sure Brand settled the debate last night.
Sic in, Brand out.