Bad Beat/Vent/Brag thread

go you pups

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Obviously

Just saying though, seemed any two cards would beat anything decent I committed a large stack to
 

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juss

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APL is pub poker. People playing pub poker ( mostly) dont understand/care about ''raising 2.5 = good hand''

Most of them '' have a feeling'' the 4/9 combo will hit.
To a degree yes. The problem with pub poker is a fast blind structure very quickly takes it to all in preflop shove poker, when this happens even a good player is down to the luck of the cards.

Yeah played my second one in three weeks, but the way the cards came out were pretty frustrating

Was an up and down night



Doubled up a few times when the blinds started going up after the first break then had AQ twice and threw away my stack with it as it didn't hit. First time I had it I raised 2.5 times the BB, the BB had a big stack and defended it, out came rags of 689 and we checked flop and turn, turn another 9, then the BB put out a bet on the river when it hit a 5, think he had 45, I thought ace high might've been good, paid him off. Shoved with AQ again a few hands later, 2 callers, another guy at risk had AQ, big stack had KQ, K on the flop and it was all over.

Any tips on aggressive preflop play and converting that into postflop wins, particularly when you only have a medium stack and not a lot of wiggle room? Seriously felt like every time I raised preflop with a premium hand I either completely missed the flop, or I'd hit either flop/turn, bet and get called then get absolutely crushed by a river card when I was well ahead previously, but whenever I limped in the cards generally fell my way and I cashed in.

I consider myself to play post flop play extremely well normally though whenever the price is right to play, but yeah, I just did not connect when I was the aggressor, didn't have a stack to back me up to put in a few bluffs either.

Eh
Sounds like you have been doing the auto Cbet on the flop which is generally the standard play, maybe throw in some other moves, check calls, check raises, giving a free turn card, double/triple barreling, check rising on the turn or river etc. C-betting often works, but it's pretty well understood that people do it regardless so doesn't always win.

If you are concerned about stack size, lower your preflop raise to 2.1 or 2.5x BB, and play more hands in position so you can fold to a massive bet before losing chips or check/bluff if it's checked to you and you missed.
 

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To a degree yes. The problem with pub poker is a fast blind structure very quickly takes it to all in preflop shove poker, when this happens even a good player is down to the luck of the cards.
Once the blinds get to about 3/6k halfway through the second hour it becomes like this.

Sounds like you have been doing the auto Cbet on the flop which is generally the standard play, maybe throw in some other moves, check calls, check raises, giving a free turn card, double/triple barreling, check rising on the turn or river etc. C-betting often works, but it's pretty well understood that people do it regardless so doesn't always win.
Nah, I varied my play regarding these things come the flop but I never bluffed as I didn't have the stack

But there were a few times where I had a decent starting hand in position, raised, got called, rags on the flop then declined to follow through with a continuation bet as I kinda felt I could be raised then have a decision to go with the 3bet all in or fold, just took the free card option there, like with the AQ a few hands before I busted out that stuffed my stack up for example.

If I connected on the flop (normally out of position having just called a raise or limped in) I'd normally bet into it though. Was one time I was in late position with A10 which did work to take 5 players out of it and get a healthy pot as an ace came out on the flop, or elsewhere through smallish bets to lure a caller or two which worked too, but yeah, big starting hands in position never connected with the board.

A10 and KJ seemed to be very popular winning hands at my table, AQ absolutely garbage though.
If you are concerned about stack size, lower your preflop raise to 2.1 or 2.5x BB, and play more hands in position so you can fold to a massive bet before losing chips or check/bluff if it's checked to you and you missed.
I generally did this, then yeah, kept on completely missing the flop

Just seemed like whenever I was calling others instead when they were in position or just limping in then I was making hands postflop, never when I was the aggressor in position though.

Anyways, will probably play these every 3-5 weeks from now on, in summer I might have more time to go fortnightly or so though.
 

juss

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Once the blinds get to about 3/6k halfway through the second hour it becomes like this.


Nah, I varied my play regarding these things come the flop but I never bluffed as I didn't have the stack

But there were a few times where I had a decent starting hand in position, raised, got called, rags on the flop then declined to follow through with a continuation bet as I kinda felt I could be raised then have a decision to go with the 3bet all in or fold, just took the free card option there, like with the AQ a few hands before I busted out that stuffed my stack up for example.

If I connected on the flop (normally out of position having just called a raise or limped in) I'd normally bet into it though. Was one time I was in late position with A10 which did work to take 5 players out of it and get a healthy pot as an ace came out on the flop, or elsewhere through smallish bets to lure a caller or two which worked too, but yeah, big starting hands in position never connected with the board.

A10 and KJ seemed to be very popular winning hands at my table, AQ absolutely garbage though.

I generally did this, then yeah, kept on completely missing the flop

Just seemed like whenever I was calling others instead when they were in position or just limping in then I was making hands postflop, never when I was the aggressor in position though.

Anyways, will probably play these every 3-5 weeks from now on, in summer I might have more time to go fortnightly or so though.
Some nights that will just be poker. The cards won't fall your way and every move you make you'll have AK top pair of K's and get called by K10 only for them to hit a 10 on the river.

If you feel like you are way more skilled than someone post flop, get frisky and play more speculative hands with them. Suited K's, suited gappers and two gappers, unsuited etc. Pub poker is the best example of any two cards can win.

In tournament poker with 30+ players the odds of you winning every week are very low. You'll bust out with no cash way more often than you'll win, even if you're good.
 

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Some nights that will just be poker. The cards won't fall your way and every move you make you'll have AK top pair of K's and get called by K10 only for them to hit a 10 on the river.
Actually happened last night lol, but was AK vs A10, both made a pair of aces on the flop, bet into it, then yeah he got the 10 on the river, paid him off, but chipped up a few hands later with A5, A10 and AK after limping/calling though.

I think nearly every hand I won with I had some ace be it weak or strong after limping/calling, no luck on pocket pairs/other hands like QJ or AQ though

If you feel like you are way more skilled than someone post flop, get frisky and play more speculative hands with them. Suited K's, suited gappers and two gappers, unsuited etc. Pub poker is the best example of any two cards can win.

In tournament poker with 30+ players the odds of you winning every week are very low. You'll bust out with no cash way more often than you'll win, even if you're good.
Yeah a lot of it is luck

If I'm getting the right price I absolutely take a flop with a lot of those combos though

Any 2 Broadway combos, suited connecters, some suited 1/2 gappers like T8, T7, 97, 86, 75, probably the only connecters I'll regularly throw away is 23, but 34/45/56 sometimes hit with wheel draws/two pairs etc so I don't mind the cheap option to see flops there.

I've had a lot of luck playing 9T and JT over the years, 9T is one of my favourite hands as it seems to make straights regularly when I get it, but didn't see that combo last night.

Other jack hands like J9, JK and AJ seem to work out well too postflop, just QJ seems to really stink like AQ whenever I get it, they're quickly becoming my least favoured Broadway type combos, QT and QK seem to play out better for me.
 

juss

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Actually happened last night lol, but was AK vs A10, both made a pair of aces on the flop, bet into it, then yeah he got the 10 on the river, paid him off, but chipped up a few hands later with A5, A10 and AK after limping/calling though.

I think nearly every hand I won with I had some ace be it weak or strong after limping/calling, no luck on pocket pairs/other hands like QJ or AQ though


Yeah a lot of it is luck

If I'm getting the right price I absolutely take a flop with a lot of those combos though

Any 2 Broadway combos, suited connecters, some suited 1/2 gappers like T8, T7, 97, 86, 75, probably the only connecters I'll regularly throw away is 23, but 34/45/56 sometimes hit with wheel draws/two pairs etc so I don't mind the cheap option to see flops there.

I've had a lot of luck playing 9T and JT over the years, 9T is one of my favourite hands as it seems to make straights regularly when I get it, but didn't see that combo last night.

Other jack hands like J9, JK and AJ seem to work out well too postflop, just QJ seems to really stink like AQ whenever I get it, they're quickly becoming my least favoured Broadway type combos, QT and QK seem to play out better for me.
What state/area do you play APL?
 

juss

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Reason I ask is I travel around a bit for work so if I have a spare night somewhere and I'm bored il try and find a local game. The other day I played in Brisbane, first time at that venue for me with 51 runners and finished 6th, without any prior knowledge of that venue game (I find each game has its own intricacies.).

Not sure if it was just the venue or the night, but man it was a softer easier game compared to most VIC venues I've played at. Even with a reasonable sized field I ran fairly deep just playing standard ABC poker nothing fancy. I couldn't believe some of the dumb plays people were making.
 

go you pups

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Reason I ask is I travel around a bit for work so if I have a spare night somewhere and I'm bored il try and find a local game. The other day I played in Brisbane, first time at that venue for me with 51 runners and finished 6th, without any prior knowledge of that venue game (I find each game has its own intricacies.).

Not sure if it was just the venue or the night, but man it was a softer easier game compared to most VIC venues I've played at. Even with a reasonable sized field I ran fairly deep just playing standard ABC poker nothing fancy. I couldn't believe some of the dumb plays people were making.
Fair enough, yeah I'd like to run around to a few different western suburbs venues to check out different opposition, but for now will just stay close to home, maybe over summer or next year I might venture out, but will just gain experience in this format for now.

At my local there's a few guys who love a bluff or overvalue the strength of their hands and will bet really big for just top pair or a draw or something, so yeah, I'm not a fan of big pots unless I know I'm strong, yesterday I was a victim of that. Quite often older chicks who play seem to run deep though, I think they just play premium cards though/play with more patience/basics better.

I think I'll just play to my strengths next time around though, like trapping and reading opponents (normally through betting patterns). Might have to limp in/call a fair bit though not to inflate pots to the right time and the problem with that is people can probably get a read on that eventually, hence why I feel I needed to mix it up.
 

juss

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Fair enough, yeah I'd like to run around to a few different western suburbs venues to check out different opposition, but for now will just stay close to home, maybe over summer or next year I might venture out, but will just gain experience in this format for now.

At my local there's a few guys who love a bluff or overvalue the strength of their hands and will bet really big for just top pair or a draw or something, so yeah, I'm not a fan of big pots unless I know I'm strong, yesterday I was a victim of that. Quite often older chicks who play seem to run deep though, I think they just play premium cards though/play with more patience/basics better.

I think I'll just play to my strengths next time around though, like trapping and reading opponents (normally through betting patterns). Might have to limp in/call a fair bit though not to inflate pots to the right time and the problem with that is people can probably get a read on that eventually, hence why I feel I needed to mix it up.
You'll get so much better quickly too if you're new. I used to get knocked out and outplayed really quickly early on, but once it clicked and I figured out the way people play at these events you adjust start getting better results.
 

go you pups

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You'll get so much better quickly too if you're new. I used to get knocked out and outplayed really quickly early on, but once it clicked and I figured out the way people play at these events you adjust start getting better results.
My results haven't been too bad really

4th from about 25 first up a few weeks ago and 15th from around 35 last night, but I feel like I'm playing short stacked most of the time and not capitalising enough early on to build a stack (have had a few bad beats too which haven't helped also)

Anyways, cheers
 

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kangaspurs

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I enjoy playing with mates every now and then, and occasionally online, however I'm an absolute novice, don't really know any tactics and play simply because I like it, but always keen on learning more from those who do know more.

Anyway, on an Ignition low stakes tournament I had about 12 BBs left and got dealt QQ. Bet 3 times BB pre-flop, got called. Flopped J99. Someone bet about half pot, and I raised all-in. They showed J-10. Turn was nothing, and then they hit the J on the river to knock me out.

As I said, I'm a novice , so anything I could have done different pre-flop to get them out then or just unlucky?
 

fpcookie

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I enjoy playing with mates every now and then, and occasionally online, however I'm an absolute novice, don't really know any tactics and play simply because I like it, but always keen on learning more from those who do know more.

Anyway, on an Ignition low stakes tournament I had about 12 BBs left and got dealt QQ. Bet 3 times BB pre-flop, got called. Flopped J99. Someone bet about half pot, and I raised all-in. They showed J-10. Turn was nothing, and then they hit the J on the river to knock me out.

As I said, I'm a novice , so anything I could have done different pre-flop to get them out then or just unlucky?
Just quite unlucky. You're about a 90% chance to win when the money goes in. Unfortunately 90% isn't 100%.
 

kangaspurs

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Just quite unlucky. You're about a 90% chance to win when the money goes in. Unfortunately 90% isn't 100%.
Oh, yeah, I absolutely get that. But more from a theoretical side, was that a decent bet pre-flop and the right move to raise all-in on the flop after the opponent bet do you think? Would have been a hard fold for an amateur like me, but it did cross my mind that they might have had KK or AA after they bet post-flop. I figured at that level no one would have called the pre-flop raise with a 9-something, so I was pretty confident they didn't have a 9.
 

GreyCrow

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I enjoy playing with mates every now and then, and occasionally online, however I'm an absolute novice, don't really know any tactics and play simply because I like it, but always keen on learning more from those who do know more.

Anyway, on an Ignition low stakes tournament I had about 12 BBs left and got dealt QQ. Bet 3 times BB pre-flop, got called. Flopped J99. Someone bet about half pot, and I raised all-in. They showed J-10. Turn was nothing, and then they hit the J on the river to knock me out.

As I said, I'm a novice , so anything I could have done different pre-flop to get them out then or just unlucky?
Your bet was fine with what you had. A lot of thinking goes into poker ( or none at all others might say ;) )

What was their motivation for betting into you? Was their stack small or large? J-10 is a nice hand to have and I might have a nibble. But , to me , its dependent on my stack size and position in the game. In a cash game with your raise I am folding. In a tournament I am considering a lot more info - have I had a long run of nothing cards , am I short stacked,or alternatively , can I afford a nibble?

End of the day you did nothing wrong
 

The Cryptkeeper

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I was once in the fortunate position to be 3 handed with the large stack in an online tournament and UTG with AA. I raise 2.5 x BB, SB shoves all in and BB calls. I obviously call with my bullets and the other two players both turn over AK.

Easiest end to a tourney I have ever played in.
 

juss

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Anyway, on an Ignition low stakes tournament I had about 12 BBs left and got dealt QQ. Bet 3 times BB pre-flop, got called. Flopped J99. Someone bet about half pot, and I raised all-in. They showed J-10. Turn was nothing, and then they hit the J on the river to knock me out.
As I said, I'm a novice , so anything I could have done different pre-flop to get them out then or just unlucky?
A couple of points to consider,

1. Ignition low stakes tournaments can sometimes be what I call "shove luck poker". It's not uncommon to see someone go all in before the flop, on the flop or on the river on any given hand. This happens much more frequently online at low stakes than it does live and in high stakes. The reason is, there are countless $1 + $0.10 $7 + $0.70 cheap buy ins, people are happy to risk their stack for a tiny buy in knowing they won't look like an idiot because they are anonymous, it's a cheap buy in, they get great chance their opponent folds, and often since they will win slightly more than double up, they only need to be a 51% favourite heads up for it to show a profit, that means heads up virtually any pocket pair preflop or any A you might see this play. They get a quick double up or they go out and register for the next one. Be prepared for a lot of these bad beats!

2. Given the above, shove luck poker takes away the skill edge that better players have. Even if your calling shove range was pocket 10s -As and suited A broadways, which would be extremely tight range but very profitable heads up, you're still going to cop bad luck a decent percentage of the time. That means it doesn't matter if your Daniel Negreanu, if you're shoving preflop with QQ and there are two players calling with a range of any A, all pocket pairs, down to hands like J8s, K6s, 10 8s you are still only a 55% favourite with your preflop monster, so 45% of the time you lose to one of their junky hands. It's basically impossible to outplay that strategy, you are a victim of the shove luck.

3. In you're position with 12 BBs left, and with QQ you want all of your money in before the flop, only KK and AA have you beat. For example in your scenario, let's say the BB was 100 and you have 1200 left, if you shove preflop instead of the 3x raise, he needs to call 1200 instead of 300 to see a flop with J10. Depending on his stack size, he might not call at all, or maybe other players will call for a coin flip that you can win, you could win it right there. If you only raise 3x, the pot on the flop is 600 and he bets half the pot, taking it to 900, you shove 900, making it 1800 it's an easy call for him with top pair and the 99 to call 900 more, unless you have a 9, he has you beat the majority of the time, and even if he's behind, he has a backdoor straight draw too. Does he call 1200 with J10 when the pot is smaller preflop and his odds aren't good and he's behind a lot of shoving hands? Probably not. You want to deny your opponents the chance to see a cheapish flop, because some might call you with junky hands that happen to flop 2 pair or a straight/flush draw whereas preflop they would have folded. By raising 3x only as well, you risk multiple callers which is not what you want. A pair of Qs only if you don't improve will rarely be the best hand at showdown with multiple callers, people playing suited cards, high cards, connectors, etc. You want to deny the sneaky hands they want to connect with the flop. Getting players to fold preflop is usually good regardless, you can't be knocked out when people fold.

4. The other reason I would say just shove QQ preflop is it's online and people will call heads up with junk, so you don't really need to "slow play" as much as live. In live poker, people generally assume preflop shoving means strength, and no one wants to call with an average hand and look silly in front of a table. Secondly, if you shove preflop you realise all of your equity because you get to showdown. The decisions are no longer yours, what do you do if you have 9 BBs left but 2 players have called your 3x bet, and the flop has come Ah Kh 7h and none of your Q are hearts, and there is a big bet to you? Any A or K has you crushed, 2 hearts have you crushed, and even 1 heart or a J10 has a number of outs against you. You then put yourself in a hugely tough decision with only 9 BB left facing a bet with a board that hits their range calling a raise.

5. In saying the above, you were definitely ahead when you raised all in on the flop, and well ahead, so you made the right move at that point and just got beaten by bad luck. It was the correct play postflop, but with your stack size I'd say it was possibly not the ideal play preflop with that hand. And personally, on a board of J99 with QQ, I am absolultely happy to get all my money in too with a short stack, so no issues there. Also, if that exact post flop scenario happened again and again, your play is correct as it's going to show a profit and win most of the time. Only thing to consider as maybe a better option for other postflop scenarios is next time how can you get all the money in preflop?
 
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The Cryptkeeper

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I enjoy playing with mates every now and then, and occasionally online, however I'm an absolute novice, don't really know any tactics and play simply because I like it, but always keen on learning more from those who do know more.

Anyway, on an Ignition low stakes tournament I had about 12 BBs left and got dealt QQ. Bet 3 times BB pre-flop, got called. Flopped J99. Someone bet about half pot, and I raised all-in. They showed J-10. Turn was nothing, and then they hit the J on the river to knock me out.

As I said, I'm a novice , so anything I could have done different pre-flop to get them out then or just unlucky?
Bad beat mate, that's all. You got it all in with the best hand and were rinsed by a 2-outer.

In fact, in that situation you want the fish to call. Every single time. I guarantee you that they knew they were behind when they called your all in. There is no possible way any half-decent poker player can think their JT is good there...unless you had been shoving frequently in which case they may take a stand with a weak top pair.
 

fpcookie

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A couple of points to consider,

1. Ignition low stakes tournaments can sometimes be what I call "shove luck poker". It's not uncommon to see someone go all in before the flop, on the flop or on the river on any given hand. This happens much more frequently online at low stakes than it does live and in high stakes. The reason is, there are countless $1 + $0.10 $7 + $0.70 cheap buy ins, people are happy to risk their stack for a tiny buy in knowing they won't look like an idiot because they are anonymous, it's a cheap buy in, they get great chance their opponent folds, and often since they will win slightly more than double up, they only need to be a 51% favourite heads up for it to show a profit, that means heads up virtually any pocket pair preflop or any A you might see this play. They get a quick double up or they go out and register for the next one. Be prepared for a lot of these bad beats!

2. Given the above, shove luck poker takes away the skill edge that better players have. Even if your calling shove range was pocket 10s -As and suited A broadways, which would be extremely tight range but very profitable heads up, you're still going to cop bad luck a decent percentage of the time. That means it doesn't matter if your Daniel Negreanu, if you're shoving preflop with QQ and there are two players calling with a range of any A, all pocket pairs, down to hands like J8s, K6s, 10 8s you are still only a 55% favourite with your preflop monster, so 45% of the time you lose to one of their junky hands. It's basically impossible to outplay that strategy, you are a victim of the shove luck.

3. In you're position with 12 BBs left, and with QQ you want all of your money in before the flop, only KK and AA have you beat. For example in your scenario, let's say the BB was 100 and you have 1200 left, if you shove preflop instead of the 3x raise, he needs to call 1200 instead of 300 to see a flop with J10. Depending on his stack size, he might not call at all, or maybe other players will call for a coin flip that you can win, you could win it right there. If you only raise 3x, the pot on the flop is 600 and he bets half the pot, taking it to 900, you shove 900, making it 1800 it's an easy call for him with top pair and the 99 to call 900 more, unless you have a 9, he has you beat the majority of the time, and even if he's behind, he has a backdoor straight draw too. Does he call 1200 with J10 when the pot is smaller preflop and his odds aren't good and he's behind a lot of shoving hands? Probably not. You want to deny your opponents the chance to see a cheapish flop, because some might call you with junky hands that happen to flop 2 pair or a straight/flush draw whereas preflop they would have folded. By raising 3x only as well, you risk multiple callers which is not what you want. A pair of Qs only if you don't improve will rarely be the best hand at showdown with multiple callers, people playing suited cards, high cards, connectors, etc. You want to deny the sneaky hands they want to connect with the flop. Getting players to fold preflop is usually good regardless, you can't be knocked out when people fold.

4. The other reason I would say just shove QQ preflop is it's online and people will call heads up with junk, so you don't really need to "slow play" as much as live. In live poker, people generally assume preflop shoving means strength, and no one wants to call with an average hand and look silly in front of a table. Secondly, if you shove preflop you realise all of your equity because you get to showdown. The decisions are no longer yours, what do you do if you have 9 BBs left but 2 players have called your 3x bet, and the flop has come Ah Kh 7h and none of your Q are hearts, and there is a big bet to you? Any A or K has you crushed, 2 hearts have you crushed, and even 1 heart or a J10 has a number of outs against you. You then put yourself in a hugely tough decision with only 9 BB left facing a bet with a board that hits their range calling a raise.

5. In saying the above, you were definitely ahead when you raised all in on the flop, and well ahead, so you made the right move at that point and just got beaten by bad luck. It was the correct play postflop, but with your stack size I'd say it was possibly not the ideal play preflop with that hand. And personally, on a board of J99 with QQ, I am absolultely happy to get all my money in too with a short stack, so no issues there. Also, if that exact post flop scenario happened again and again, your play is correct as it's going to show a profit and win most of the time. Only thing to consider as maybe a better option for other postflop scenarios is next time how can you get all the money in preflop?
I disagree with shoving pre. You want to keep these kind of hands (J-10) in. By shoving you're making it easy for players with middling hands to fold and the players with better hands are always going to call. I like the 3BB raise even though he's short stacked.
 

juss

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I disagree with shoving pre. You want to keep these kind of hands (J-10) in. By shoving you're making it easy for players with middling hands to fold and the players with better hands are always going to call. I like the 3BB raise even though he's short stacked.
It's fine when that flop comes for sure, but in future there will be different flop textures. With only 9 BBs remaining that doesnt give much fold equity shoving again if theres already say 6-10 BBs pot and 1-2 other players. Other risks are big stacks calling with junky or playable hands, multiple callers making it a multiway hand, A or K hands, etc. You can minimise a lot of the risk by shoving preflop. Remember this is small stakes online, people will call all in bets with hands far worse so you will still get action.

There are many ways to play though and you can't do the same play every time, but ideally you want all your money in preflop, against 1 other player, that's your ideal scenario here and you have to work out the best way to make it happen. If he waits until the flop, hands that have missed that he might have beat will fold anyway, may as well go for max value before that when you only have 9 BBs left if you are forced to fold to an A or K board a flush draw a straight draw. Those cards absolutely call with a 3bb raise. QQ plays better heads up than multiway, and if someone shoves over the top of your 3x, or 4 bets, other players are now priced in better to call making it a multiway.
 
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The Cryptkeeper

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It's fine when that flop comes for sure, but in future there will be different flop textures. With only 9 BBs remaining that doesnt give much fold equity shoving again if theres already say 6-10 BBs pot and 1-2 other players. Other risks are big stacks calling with junky or playable hands, multiple callers making it a multiway hand, A or K hands, etc. You can minimise a lot of the risk by shoving preflop. Remember this is small stakes online, people will call all in bets with hands far worse so you will still get action.

There are many ways to play though and you can't do the same play every time, but ideally you want all your money in preflop, against 1 other player, that's your ideal scenario here and you have to work out the best way to make it happen. If he waits until the flop, hands that have missed that he might have beat will fold anyway, may as well go for max value before that when you only have 9 BBs left if you are forced to fold to an A or K board a flush draw a straight draw. Those cards absolutely call with a 3bb raise. QQ plays better heads up than multiway, and if someone shoves over the top of your 3x, or 4 bets, other players are now priced in better to call making it a multiway.
In this case though, he/she only had one other opponent. Perfect scenario is to get paid off with your overpair against some fool who wants to play top pair, average kicker.

You need some luck but you want action with hands like QQ. I agree that it plays better all-in pre-flop heads up, but you have also admitted that in small stakes online tourneys there are players that will shove with anything. Therefore a 3 X BB raise is every bit as good as an all in shove with QQ in my opinion. You either get re-raised which is what you want, or somebody calls and tries to outdraw you...but that is going to happen whether you standard raise or shove given the range of hands that some morons play in these things. Certainly, if I have QQ in this situation I want somebody to come along for the ride. You don't win tournaments by stealing blinds. Your big hands need to get paid off. If you get outdrawn, you get outdrawn.

In this case, the player has played QQ perfectly but unfortunately has been rivered by a simpleton.
 

fpcookie

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Playing for 'ideal scenario' is risky business IMO.

Playing to increase your chances to get paid off is better. Shoving just eliminates so many of the hands you want to be against post-flop (like the exact hand the villain had in this case)
 

juss

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In this case though, he/she only had one other opponent. Perfect scenario is to get paid off with your overpair against some fool who wants to play top pair, average kicker.

You need some luck but you want action with hands like QQ. I agree that it plays better all-in pre-flop heads up, but you have also admitted that in small stakes online tourneys there are players that will shove with anything. Therefore a 3 X BB raise is every bit as good as an all in shove with QQ in my opinion. You either get re-raised which is what you want, or somebody calls and tries to outdraw you...but that is going to happen whether you standard raise or shove given the range of hands that some morons play in these things. Certainly, if I have QQ in this situation I want somebody to come along for the ride. You don't win tournaments by stealing blinds. Your big hands need to get paid off. If you get outdrawn, you get outdrawn.

In this case, the player has played QQ perfectly but unfortunately has been rivered by a simpleton.
Playing for 'ideal scenario' is risky business IMO.

Playing to increase your chances to get paid off is better. Shoving just eliminates so many of the hands you want to be against post-flop (like the exact hand the villain had in this case)
I think the key is there are so many variables that influence the decision, and you can't do the same play 100% of the time either, so there is merit in both actions. To be honest the decisions will always be varied based on tournament stage vs cash game, stack size, player reads, position, etc so it's certainly not wrong to do the 3x raise. I'd certainly throw that in as an option some of the time to keep my play varied, but my default style with 12 bigs would be to shove preflop. In other unique cases, like where I play with live reads on super aggressive opponents with big stacks, I'd probably call under the gun, knowing I'll get a raise from the aggressor looking to steal the blinds and then shove over the top, it's a mix and match scenario. But the limp/shove is a play I have used a few times, you just need a really good read knowing who will raise you with any 2 cards. It's the same risk you take with the check/raise play postflop.

It's great to discuss different strategy options here though, as it gives you a deeper analysis and some different options that you may not have considered.
 

juss

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While we are talking hand strategy, I'd be keen to discuss this one, a hand I tried to slow play but I think I played it quite badly.

I had 10c 9h, checked around to me in the BB with 1 limper and 1 caller SB, checks so we have 3 players.
Flop comes 9c 9h 6c, good flop to hit, but the paired 9 I decide to check and trap, turn comes 7s, another pretty good card for me, I bet 3k, a smallish bet it's probably about third of pot, and the 3 players call, next card is the 8c, so the board reads
9c 9h 6c 7s 8c giving me a 10 high straight, my hand blocks the 9 and 10, so J10 is a chance but less likely.
SB bets 12k, I raise to 25k, he calls with Ac 2c for the nuts flush, my 10 high straight loses.

My error here was possibly checking the flop, or betting too small on the turn, or even the raise / call on the river, but I'm not happy with the way I played the hand, and it cost me a big chunk of my stack that effectively ruined me and I couldn't recover.
 

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