Bad Luck Hawkers

[WCE2000]

I thought they could perhaps of been the dark horse of the competition. I wouldn't of been very suprised if they made their first Grand Final since 1991, but that was not to be.

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[Guest]

Let me tell you this, luck had nothing to do with it.

Inept kicking, shocking decision making cost the Hawks for sure. North played fair and if they played a more professional decisive unit they would have been in big trouble.

The hawks need to clean out some players who's skill just ain't up to it, in the crunch some players keep missing targets(no names).

All things considered a pretty good season but beaten by a better team, congrats. North.

[This message has been edited by happy hawker (edited 19 August 2000).]

 

[Johnno]

I witnessed the worst standard of football I have seen for many years last night.
a) Hawthorn must have the slowest, most unskilled set of small players in the league.
b) Hawthorn seemed to have a plethora of talls and bomb the ball in the air in sixties fashion.
The game has evolved beyond the scrappy kick and hope theory that was used last night.

 

[Candyshoota]

I thought the Hawks had a real go and was very heartened by the way they fought it out to the end, unlike some sides that completely went to water. It was a pity that skills or bad judgement was again their downfall. At least that is something that can be worked on, they showed that they lack nothing in grit. Congrats to the roos,they deserved their win, and I look forward to further improvements from the Hawks next year.

 

[Bomber]

I was there, and I could only wonder how the hell the Hawks made the finals, let alone beat Geelong. They were horrible, but at the same time still coulda stolen the game.
Nth werent that good, but were made to look a lot classier than they were by the ineptness of Hawthorn. The thing is it wasnt just skill, it was decision making that cost them. Since when do you go inboard to a contest in defence? At under 14's I was taught never to do that!

 

[Snags]

North weren't much chop, but Hawthorn...dear oh dear... for gods sake recruit some pace and skill or don't bother.
A shame Hawthorn played Geelong and Lions Played Bulldogs one of two watchable sides got eliminated whilst one of the two crappiest teams in finals history went through.

 

[hawkforce]

Snags, if the Hawks don't make top 5 next year Dan24 will stop talking about the minor premiership.

 

[dockerbabe]

let me just remind you wce2000 your fav team finished 13th compared to the hawks finishing in the top 8 and let me just remind you freo finished better then use so suck s*i#

 

[Shinboners]

We beat the Hawks, but it seemed to me to be a combination of North's first 20 minutes and Hawthorn's inept disposal of the ball. The Hawks made more clangers last night than what Essendon have in the last month or so, but I think the Hawks fans can go into next season with some degree of hope. They do have some good players, but they need some midfielders to help out Crawford, Harford, and Chick. That Johnston kid looked good in the last quarter though. People are also forgetting that about six weeks ago, it looked as if the Hawks wouldn't even make the finals. But their youngsters now have had a taste with 2 finals games experience and that's something for them to build on. Oh, it was also good to see Harford so devastated at the siren...it shows that he cares.

For North, well, it was good to see them play with something resembling hunger and punishing the opposition for their clangers. Pickett was great, so were Bell, Simpson, Archer, and Grant. For us to beat Melbourne, it'll come down to Bell, Harvey, Grant, Simpson, and King beating their Melbourne counterparts....I reckon we have the defenders to keep their forwards quiet, but it'll help if we can stop their supply. Our forward line still looks unconvincing though and Melbourne do get some good run from the backhalf. One last thing...North played for their own personal pride last night. But that won't be enough to win the flag. In a way, I'm happier that we're not meeting Brisbane, Carlton, or Essendon next week because for various reasons, these teams are playing for something more than pride. For Brisbane, if they played against us, they'd be out for revenge for '96 and '99...for Carlton and Essendon, we'd be just another minor hurdle in their quest for premiership glory. That's not to put North down...it's just an observation that we don't seem to be as committed to winning a premiership as these other sides...we don't seem to have that tunnel vision where the light at the end of it is that silver trophy. Even though Melbourne made the '98 prelim, they still strike me as a little bit green and vulnerable. But having said that, they will still start favourites against us.

 

[Barney]

Hawthorn were not good enough and were let down by hackers like Woods,Barker,Dixon, and the overated Harford.No one ever gives any credit to North on this site its mostly bagging and talk of sending us to Sydney..but at the end of the day the Roos play with pride that other clubs could only dream of having.Sure we are slow and old but we run hard and straight at the footy..unlike most Hawthorn players and never give up.Bell,Simpson,Stevens,Archer and Pike were brilliant last night but will not be given any credit..it will be Crawford had an off night,Salmon was injured and so on and so on.
Hawthorn were lucky to be as close as they were and only lived up to their image as pretty boys who dont like it hard.
One down side to Norths win was the form of Colbert...ordinary..

Go Roos

 

[Dan26]

Hawthorn need a skilled midfilder. If they had, say, Camporeale, they would be a hard side to beat. But they lack class across the board, and are not worth of being called "6th" best. Harsh call, some Hawk fans will say, but the Hawks had a percentage of 96, which puts them below average. They were outscoreed by the opposition, over the whole year.

Another observation from last night (I was there). While North came out fired up, it was just such a bland match. Finals are just so overrated. There are heaps of H&A matches played at a higher intensity and skill level. Todays Carlton-Brisbane match would have been one of the least intense and pressurized games of ther whole year..... and I mean any match. Finals are just a load of hype, which the games themselves never live up to. Can any of us remember a finals match in the 1990's where it lived up to the hype. The skill level is often WELL below the hype. OK, perhaps there were some matches that lived yp to the hype, but so did hepas of H&A.

The AFL have to learsn that making the finals the "be all and end all" doesn't instantaneously make them better games. Just because the final decide the "so called" premiership doesn;'t mean we are going to get the top sides playing at their best in those matches. I can't remember a GF that has lived up to the hype for over 10 years

Some game are intense, but so are heaps of H&A matches. A finals match is just a game of footy. It is no more likely to be intense or skillful that any other match, by the law of averages. All it does is undermaine a teams performancs over 6 months of footy.

It's just bullshit. North lost a final by 125 points. if they beat Melbourne they'll be in the GF. Carlton also lost to Melbourne, and if they beat Essendon they will also be in the GF.

If Essendon lose one match (just like the Roos and Blues lost ONE match), then they will be eliminated and 21 wins, and perhaps the greatest team of all time given no plaudits.

It's just so disenchanting. Why did I even bother going to the footy over the course of this year ?

 

[ArdenSt]

If you are truly one of the great sides of all time, then you won't lose. If you do lose, it means you cannot handle the pressure and don't deserve the tag of one of the greatest sides ever. Will you give this a rest, we are all sick of hearing your constant whining on this topic. Even people on your own teams forum are tired of it.

Cheers, ArdenSt

PS. I really don't think anyone will get within 10 goals of your team unfortunately.

 

[Dan26]

ArdenSt,

Oh, you're sick of reading my shit are you ?

Well, I'm sick of people who have no idea !
If we do lose it does NOT mean we can't handle the pressure. It just means we lost a footy match. Someone has to lose. What if two teams BOTH play well under pressure ? There still has to be a winner and a loser.

Did that point escape you ?

All the great sides lose matches. We lost to the Bulldogs a few weeks ago. Upsets happen.

Essendon deserve to be hailed as one of the greatest ever, even if they don't win the Grand Final. The GF is just a game of footy. The rules are no different. Players don't try harder. To say they try harder would imply that they weren't giving 100 % in the H&A. Of course they were giving 100% in the H&A. If they weren't, they'd be dragged !

The Grand Final is just a load of hype. A great event, yes. But not an accurate reflection of the year. So, why do we persist with the Grand Final overriding all before it. It's double or nothing, and double or nothing sucks.

What was the f8cking point of winning 21 games. Tell me ? Why did I bother going to all those matches, because they obviously mean sweet F.A.

And I don't care who dislikes my ramblings. They had better get used to it, because I'm never shutting up.

Also, it's a bit stupid to talk about "pressure", becasue the teams that play Essendon aren't under any presure. Does this make their "win" less credible, since they didn't have to contend with any pressure ?

I think that is an important point. How can you say a team performed under pressure, when they weren't under any pressure, because they had nothing to lose.

The "Home and away" premiership (top spot)will test pressure, skill, courage, CONSISTENCY at various times over the 22 weeks. You have to contend with (and win) under preesure heaps of times if you are going to finish on top of the ladder.

So, don't talk to me about pressure. Essendon have performed under pressure all year. They failed against the Dogs, but they won every other time they were under "pressure".

You can't let one match represent your season. it's stupid, unfair, and I'm sick and tired of it.

I'm surprised people can't see this.

 

[ArdenSt]

Dan24,

again I reply to you. You make many very good points about football in general, and I always read your postings with interest. But on this topic we all know your opinion. You have expressed it many times, but unfortunately I don't agree with you as many others don't either. You play Footy to get to the Grand Final and then to win it. You ask anyone who has played the game. The 21 games you won during the H&A was a sensational effort, and it has not been wasted because it has set you up to get to the Grand Final. Now you need to win it to show that you are truly the very best. There is no doubt that you deserve to.

In reply to one of your comments, if two sides are giving 100%, and yours is the best side, then surely you are most likely to win. Any player will tell you that the greatest thrill of their career is playing in a Grand Final, and then winning it. Nothing else compares to it. You cannot say a Grand Final is nothing but hype. Ask those that have been there. It means everything.

Dan24, just because we disagree on this point, don't get abusive and say I know nothing about the game, because I would have to prove you wrong on that point. We have differing opinions so lets just get on with it. As I mentioned earlier, you have some very informative points of view, but you have doen this topic to death.

Looking forward to your next posting.

Cheers, ArdenSt

 

[ArdenSt]

Dan24,

please read my other reply to you in 1v2.

Cheers

 

[Dan26]

Yeah,I KNOW players play to win a Grand Final.

If top spot was recognised they can STILL aspire to win the Grand Final. Nothing will change.

In England, the ONE match players want to win above all others is the FA CUP. Why ? Not because of the achievement, because finishing on top is much harder, but because of the "glory", and the "event status" and "tradition" that it holds.

Our GF has those three important qualities. It always will. The GF should only be the culmination of a 4 week tournament. Nothing more. Players can stil aspire to win it, as they do the FA CUP.

You don't have the FA CUP winner being declared cahampion of the whole season, do you ? But that doesn't stop fans from wanting to win it, does it ?

 

[Grendel]

This is my 2nd post to this thread, i dont know why the first one didnt get through.

First of some replies to a few people on the sudden 'overachievments' the Hawks suddenly on their demise seem to have invoked.

Happy Hawker, come on, luck had heaps to do with it. If Harfords snap in the 1st had been called a goal (8 times out of 10 it probably would have) if Chicks had taken a decent bounce instead of going up straighter than an umpires ball up, if Dixons goal had been allowed (some please tell me how that was a free!!!). Burton (BURTON!!!) getting a ball to bounce straight into him and snapping a goal. So please dont say luck didnt play a part. Please dont be one of these Hawks supporters now that were out of it to suddenly see faults all over the place. They are about where i picked them at the start of the year. Hopefully they can improve from here, but even so, they ran the defending premiers to ten points, thats not bad considering where we where three years back.

Bomber, its called finals experience. In the end North had it and new what and when to do it. Hawthorn had virtually nil with the exceptions of Salmon Rock and (god help me) Young. Young was a higlight though, Dutch tell me agian how he is gonna be a bonus for us, im still waiting.

Shinboners, thanks and congratulations on the win. Fair and honest assesment. I was never to confident going in. Your core group reminds me alot of the Hawks circa 91-94. Lots of guys who while not at their peak still know how to get the job done when it counts. Dont know if its enough to go any further but with that kind of blend of talent and cunning can take you a fair way (witness the 91 flag). Im not sure you can but you never know.

Barney look at Harford again. The one player that brought the Hawks back from the brink and your calling him overated? Walk into any side in the league that bloke, give him his due credit. You won by 10 points. Your players on average are about two years older than ours, while im not discounting you (see what i said to shinboners) im not giving you much hope for the immediate future either.

Dan24, everything you wrote on the Hawks is garbage, 'dont deserve to finish sixth'. What the hell is that supposed to mean? . Oh sorry we won a final and enough games to finish in a postion on the ladder that should be reserved for better sides like the Doggies (who the Hawks beat twice btw) or Cats (same again). Dumbest thing ive ever read from you. Very dissapointed. As to the rest that didnt finish in the eight, if they were good enough they would have. Also your telling me that one player (a Camporeale for instance) would suddenly make the future rosy and correct the injustice of the Hawks finishing where they have. Thats just stupid, no side is one player away from greatness. We need improvment in the middle another rebounding defender, a small crumbing forward, another ruck to replace Salmon and more depth to cover injuries wouldnt hurt. Seems like half the league could be in that situation. Go on if you must (and it does seem you must) about your finals injustices and why you even 'bother going' to games. If your that bored with it, then give it up and find something else to do. Otherwise except that which is and learn to live with that which you cannot change. And stop being so bloody condesending.

My views on the actual game? We were unlucky but we also brought it on ourselves. Skill errors can and will be elimanted. Finals experience cant be bought and friday night i think in the long run will prove benificial to the side. We need some playerS. Ive already mentioned that. Schwabs done pretty well, but i think someone with a bit more tactial nous to assist in the box might be handy too.

All in all fairly satisfied (as much as you can be if you dont win the flag) with the year. Long LOONNGGG boring summer ahead but already primed for next year.

Bring on 2001 GO THE MIGHTY HAWKS!

 

[Eagle_Fan]

I didn't think they were so bad on Friday, and got the raw deal on some of those goal decisions. But I also think they were lucky to get Geelong first up. We played them (Geel) in round 20 I think, and they were really bad (they did beat us convincingly, but hey, who didn't towards the end?). I felt then that their skills really weren't top 4 level, and they were just making up the numbers. If the Hawks had gotten the Bullies or Lions in the first week, I think they'd have gone out then.
I think you'll be alright now you've got a decent coach

Oh, and congratulations to Brett Johnson. (Another Swan Districts product

) Great debut final. You've got some great young kids.

 

[Dan26]

Grendel,

I'm very disappointed in you. You're letting your bias show.

I said Hawthorn didn"t deserve to finish 6th, because "6th" doesn't do them justice,

Let's look at the facts :

1.) They finished 8th with a percentage of less than 100.

2.) Yes, they won a final, but they beat ANOTHER team that also had a percenatage of less than 100. So, one of them had to win !

3.) They lose to a team that only had a percentage of 106, and lost by 125 points the week before.

Yes, they are "officially" 6th, and they were a gutsy team too. No denying it.

But having a percentage of less than 100 (meaning you were outscored by your opposition over the whole year), puts you in the 8th-9th best category.

And I certainly think the addition of a classy midfielder is so important to Hawthorn. Imagine a midfielder who can get 30 "classy" touches a game, like a Camporeale, or Woewodin.

The Hawks seem to lack class through the middle of the ground, often resulting in frustrating turnovers.

As far as I'm concerned, the Hawks were 8th best in 2000. That's where they finished on the ladder. ONE "gutsy" victory over a medicore Geelong team (who had a percentage of less than 100), doesn't automatically change everything and make the Hawks a better team all of a sudden. They were the 8th best team, who officially finished 6th.

 

[Ruby]

Dan 24 we play 22 home and away games that is the competition after that we play the finals, its called Aussie rules rules being the most important word here not Dan24 rules.

 

[hawkforce]

The internet is a free and open medium so I'll excuse those people who believed that Geelong/Bullies/Brisbane deserved to be rated higher than Hawthorn this year.

Hopefully, once they have finished surfing the pr0n sites on the WWW, they will return their thoughts to football and be surprised to see that Hawthorn did not lose to ANY of those sides... in fact beat them all comfortably twice in the year.

I'd call that pretty comprehensive evidence that, perhaps, the Hawks had their measure.

But,

Dan24...

When you enter a thread concerning the performance of two teams in a particular game, we happily await your banal, infantile, insipid, statistics-based twaddle with a mixture of amusement, interest, and trepidation.

We gasp in admiration as you - surprise! - woundedly gripe when someone disagrees with you - "Oooooh, your biase is showing. Your biased, you nasty person you!"

"Dan!", we chuckle, "Such predictability is nice... in Lab Rats."

But Dan, if you EVER...

I mean... EVER...

Jump in on someone's thread and twist it to push your ****ing repetitive tedious Minor Premier Crap again, I swear I will find you and beat you so hard tht you will publicly announce that Essendon's current team is a result of some of the most cynical cheating ever known in Australian Sport.

 

[Shinboners]

Grendel

Yeah, that's a fair observation about the current North side being similar to the Hawks of '91 to '94. Another valid comparison are the Eagles of '95 to '98, and the post-'95 Carlton sides. But what would you do?

Next year, we'll have player lists of 38 players. We know what angst the Hawks went through when their stalwarts of the 80s had to be pushed out the door. It's an issue that North will have to deal with in the next few years. North have six stalwarts, Carey, Stevens, Archer, Martyn, Blakey, and McKernan. Of them only Stevens, Archer, and McKernan would interest other clubs while Carey is untradeable and Blakey and Martyn are too old for other clubs to take the risk. So, do you trade them at the risk of losing valuable experience but hopefully gaining some good youngsters, or do you hold onto them to make sure that the club stays somewhere within reaching distance of the top in the short term? And there is the issue of staying loyal to players to have been loyal to the club.

My view is to reward them for loyalty and keep them at the club and risk a few years in the wilderness. The thing is if you push a player out, it may be a long time before they return to the club and pass on their knowledge and experience to the new players that take their place. In the end, retaining the culture could be as important in keeping a club strong as getting early draft picks.

Cheers
Shinboners

p.s. Hawks '91....we'll take some of that!

 

[Dan26]

Hawkforce,

You are a silly twat. Go and calm yourself down you coward.

Excuse me for thinking that a 12-10 team with a percentage of less than 100 is anything other than average.

Oh, and it's not your performances agaisnt the teams around you that determine if you are better than them. It's the performance over 22 weeks against ALL opponents.

If Hawthorn was "really" ther 6th best team, then why didn't they finish 6th after 22 weeks ? I suppose, they very nearly could have I admit.

But looking at "for and against" and "percentage", I regard Geelong and Hawthron as the two weakest teams in the top 8. Becasue they both played each other one of them had to win, so one of them (Hawthorn) would finish at least 6th. Which is exactly what happened.

It's like saying Carlton were the 2nd best team of last year. Sure, they "officially" finished 2nd, but that doesn't make them the second best team. Ask their supporters.

And I'll state my "top spot" stuff whenever I want. You just try and stop me, buddy.

 

[birdy]

The hawks was crap, are crap and always will be crap but boy do thay look pretty.

 

[WCE2000]

Dan24:
who do you consider as actually being the second best team this year?

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