Bailey Smith vs Sam Walsh

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BoundbyKreuze

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Feb 9, 2020
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Fair enough. I've said previously in this thread that I personally disagreed and though Cripps was marginally better last year. It's clearly Bont right now but what has happened to Cripps? You'd think by now there'd be a sense of clarity on what sort of injury it was.
Instability in the shoulder causing it to dislocate and lose strength. Happens to a lot of players. It occurred 3 times throughout the year.
 

GoalSneak38

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Pfft. Lol. Way to deflect away from my point that Carlton have beaten more teams in the 8 than the dogs. I couldn’t give a fu** about what 1 person that’s not me said about Carlton shouldn’t be playing finals. Coz we bloody well should be. Weve been more competitive than the majority of the 8 this year. Just not consistent against the sh*t sides.
Yes and that was my point. Are you ok?
 

TeeJay Blue

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Feb 11, 2015
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Honestly, this thread is pathetic. It is going to go on and on after every Carlton game and bulldogs game, with supporters from each side flapping their mouths about these two and their performances and further implying why they are the better player because of this. Nothing is going to be achieved.

People should know what to expect from threads such as these with triggering titles. Very little mature discussion and a lot of derailing with stuff like:
- "Whose club is better?"
- "Whose club is playing finals?"
- "How many spoons?"
- "'insert club name' supporters are..."
- "Media think otherwise..."
- "Most people agree with me..."
etc.

Bailey Smith and Sam Walsh are both superb players for their respective teams and are going to be genuine stars if they continue to track the way they do. No need for dick-measuring at the moment.

But far out, this talk surrounding Walsh everywhere is crazy. Never have I witnessed a player more scrutinised nowadays than Sam Walsh. Never happened for the previous two number one draft picks. For some reason unknown, the media like to lay the boot into this kid by constantly bringing up the 2018 re-draft discussion.

After 3 games, Rankine is suddenly a better player.
Every standard Rozee goal has that port-loving nuffie on Sunday mornings blabbing on about how Carlton took the wrong player at pick 1.
Smith simply sporting a mullett makes him a better player.
Lukosius suddenly has a breakout game this year and then he is a better player.
Butters miraculously makes the AA squad and then he is a better player.

FMD!!!

Can't we just acknowledge that Sam Walsh has achieved some great things already and move on knowing he still has a long way to go?
He has won the rising star, the AFLPA best first-year player, the AFLCA best young player, has featured in the 22 under 22 twice and could potentially win a B&F in his second year at just 20 years of age. Does this make him a better player than Bailey Smith? Of course not. Perhaps he has just made the most of every single opportunity he has been given and that is why he has won these awards.

NOBODY is saying he will be the best player in this draft either, because no one has a bloody clue when it comes to this. We do not own a crystal ball. Who knows? It could be Max King. It could be Jack Lukosius or Xavier Duursma. Heck, Chayce Jones could come from the clouds and show everyone what he is made of. So many possibilities.

But my goodness, the attacks on this kid is completely absurd. Did he pee in everyone's cereal?

I love Walsh for his footy nous, athleticism, toughness, humbleness and his incredible maturity. A potential superstar and a future club captain. But I am not getting too carried away and neither would he. As mentioned just before, there is plenty more work for him to do.

We can express our opinions over who is going to have a higher ceiling or is going to fit better in our own sides. But let's not crap on other players whilst doing this. I'm sure Walsh never allows for such talk to get to him but I do believe much of the footy world still owes him an apology for trying to slow him down with the ball and chain.
 

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calman

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AFL coaches award 2020
Sam Walsh 38 votes
Bailey smith 26 votes

2019
Sam Walsh 26 votes
Bailey smith 1 votes

So according to the AFL coaches, who would know far more than the average bigfooty poster
Sam Walsh body of work over the past two years far exceeds bailey smith
AFL coaches don't give votes to stat padders or to flashy players
They give votes to player who influence games

will this change in the future, maybe, but right now, Walsh is the better player according to the AFL coaches

 

Kreuuuzeurns

Premiership Player
Sep 25, 2013
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AFL coaches award 2020
Sam Walsh 38 votes
Bailey smith 26 votes

2019
Sam Walsh 26 votes
Bailey smith 1 votes

So according to the AFL coaches, who would know far more than the average bigfooty poster
Sam Walsh body of work over the past two years far exceeds bailey smith
AFL coaches don't give votes to stat padders or to flashy players
They give votes to player who influence games

will this change in the future, maybe, but right now, Walsh is the better player according to the AFL coaches

So basically Bailey is at the same level Sam was 12 months ago.

Maybe I underestimated him. There is no shame in being behind a guy like Walshy.
 

Bulldog Joe

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May 23, 2008
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AFL coaches award 2020
Sam Walsh 38 votes
Bailey smith 26 votes

2019
Sam Walsh 26 votes
Bailey smith 1 votes

So according to the AFL coaches, who would know far more than the average bigfooty poster
Sam Walsh body of work over the past two years far exceeds bailey smith
AFL coaches don't give votes to stat padders or to flashy players
They give votes to player who influence games

will this change in the future, maybe, but right now, Walsh is the better player according to the AFL coaches

Of course you need to understand that all those votes for Walsh are only in Carlton games and Bailey Smith has only played in 3 Carlton games:cool:

The other point is that there is an extreme likelihood that the majority of those votes have been awarded by the Carlton coach, possibly suffering from a biased viewpoint focussing on the hope that Carlton will one day be good enough to play finals.
 

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TeeJay Blue

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Feb 11, 2015
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After much detailed analysis, I declare Bailey Walsh the better of the two players, unequivocally.
I'm glad it's Bailey Walsh.

Because let's be honest. I don't think one singing their way through the season will necessarily help with their chances of both personal accolades or finals.

That is unless, there are plans for a 'Footy Favourites II' record.
 

Gethelred

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Everyone who has watched them both this year can clearly see their is little seperating the two. They have both had very good years.

Let's not pretend Walsh is lightyears ahead of everyone when his year has probably been on par with Smith's.
The change in the HTB rule hurt Smith badly; he went from someone who looked to take on and beat the tackler to someone who handpassed the second he thought someone had him, and this affected his disposal quality.

He was terrific early, but I don't think you can say his year was on par with Walsh's. Walsh started worse but not badly, but got so much better he compares favorably with McCluggage as a winger despite it not being his natural position. I've no doubt about Smith's quality, and he's got finals to force people to reconsider this nonsensical debate, but on the H/A season, Walsh's year was better; not massively, but not by a bee's dick either. Sorry.
 

Gethelred

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Round 18 - Average Age
Carlton: 26y 56d
North: 25y 254d

Round 18 - Total Games Experience
Carlton: 2472
North: 2062

Round 18 - Players Over 30
Carlton: 5
North: 3

Round 18 - Players 22 or younger
Carlton: 7
North: 8

Round 18 - Players with 30 career games or less
Carlton: 3
North: 8

Finals Played in 2020
Carlton: 0
North: 0
 

conrad_437

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Jun 26, 2016
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The change in the HTB rule hurt Smith badly; he went from someone who looked to take on and beat the tackler to someone who handpassed the second he thought someone had him, and this affected his disposal quality.

He was terrific early, but I don't think you can say his year was on par with Walsh's. Walsh started worse but not badly, but got so much better he compares favorably with McCluggage as a winger despite it not being his natural position. I've no doubt about Smith's quality, and he's got finals to force people to reconsider this nonsensical debate, but on the H/A season, Walsh's year was better; not massively, but not by a bee's dick either. Sorry.
Hmmm. I disagree with your statement that Walsh didn't start badly, for his standards he was definitely poor and couldn't get enough of the pill to influence the game. It took him until round 7 to crack the SC tonne (I know it's supercoach, but it's a decent enough indicator of performance). Bailey definitely had a stretch of games of poor football too, as all second-year players do at some point. Walsh had an incredibly good finish to the year though, and that potentially puts him marginally in front in terms of performance this year. It's not a clear separation and I bet you could find plenty of neutrals that'd agree.

I do believe Smith will go ahead of Walsh next year, but then again, that's just a gut feel and baseless position. Both incredibly talented players and wouldn't be that annoyed if it didn't happen, because it'd mean Walsh would be a star of the comp and you can't argue with that.

Interesting you point out the HTB rule hurt Smith. I do believe that could've perhaps impacted his tendency and confidence to take on the tackler, but another factor could've been his concussion, which seemed to coincide with a small drop in form. Before then, he was literally our best midfielder (in a midfield with two players who were AA this year and another who was in the 40 last year, plus a revitalised Libba).

Agree to disagree I 'spose.
 

ltdamn

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Undeniably, the outlawing of the drop-kick has hurt the game of both players.

I'm certain both will go on to play many seasons, but can they reach Horrie Clover levels of greatness without mastering the most important of the field skills?

It's doubtful.
 

btdg

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Of course you need to understand that all those votes for Walsh are only in Carlton games and Bailey Smith has only played in 3 Carlton games:cool:

The other point is that there is an extreme likelihood that the majority of those votes have been awarded by the Carlton coach, possibly suffering from a biased viewpoint focussing on the hope that Carlton will one day be good enough to play finals.
Only because I'm bored...

Sam Walsh's coaches votes - Carlton or Opposition coaches:
Rd 18 vs Brisbane- 4 votes. 2 other players received 1 vote each and the 4 votes are accounted for too - this therefore means he received 2 votes from the opposition coach
Rd 16 vs Sydney - 10 votes = 5 votes from opposition coach
Rd 15 vs GWS - 8 votes; match had a clear 10-8-6-4-2 alignment = 4 votes from opposition coach
Rd 14 vs Collingwood - 2 votes; vote allocation in this match is unclear. However, it is clear that only one coach gave him votes and no other Carlton player received votes. I think it is fair to assume that Teague (and not FIGJAM Buckley) gave Walsh the votes in this match
Rd 13 vs Gold Coast -4 votes; another vote allocation all over the place. Murphy received 10; TWO players (Jack Martin and Walsh) received 4 only - ie one coach gave 4 and the other gave 0. This one is quite unclear as it was a blowout game. Potentially Teague only...
Rd 12 vs Freo - 2 votes. Both coaches gave Walsh 1x vote
Rd 8 vs North - 3 votes. 3 players received 3 votes; it is possible he received either 3 from one coach, or 2-1 from both. Luke McDonald received 1 and that's almost certainly Rhys Shaw voting in a Carlton win. So Walsh, Pittonet and Ed Curnow either received 3, 2 or 0 votes from Rhys Shaw. I'd lean to Walsh (the outside receiver who had 21 touches and a goal) GETTING votes from Shaw; the likely one who didn't is Pittonet (who did a great job in the ruck, but Goldstein still dominated hitouts 41-27 - that looks like a game only his own coach rewards to me). Interestingly that implies that Rhys Shaw most likely gave Walsh more votes than Teague
Rd 7 vs Port - 5 votes. The vote pattern indicates this was a 3-2. Dissecting further, both coaches gave Dixon 5. Ladhams and Jonas got 4s, Walsh and Jonas 3s, McKenzie and Walsh 2s, Weitering and Wines 1s. In a game decided after the siren, this is tough to predict but only one coach rewarded Ladhams so lets assume that was Hinkley, in which case it is likely that Walsh got 3 from Teague and 2 from Hinkley.

From this, it is clear that Walsh likely received at least 16-17 of his 36 votes from opposition coaches. Furthermore, it's likely there was only one likely occasion where his coach gave votes but not the opposition coach (and that was Buckley who gave ALL his votes to Collingwood players), 1-2 occasions where it is possible/unclear, and 1 likely occasion where the opposition coach gave him more votes than the Carlton coach.

I think that reasonably thoroughly debunks the claim that his votes were given out wishful thinking by his own coach. A better conspiracy might be that opposition coaches around the league are giving Walsh votes to lure Carlton into a false sense of optimisim...


Now, onto Bailey Smith. He received 1 coaches vote vs Carlton this year in 1 match. Thats slightly lower than his season average of 1.5 votes per game.
Last year, he didn't get coaches vote vs Carlton, but it isn't really fair to include that, because he didn't really get coaches votes at all last season.
However, the evidence available suggests that Smith gets LESS coaches votes in games involving Carlton than he does vs other opposition.

None of which adds much to the conversation really, but as I said, it has been a boring week with no matches!
 

Gethelred

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Hmmm. I disagree with your statement that Walsh didn't start badly, for his standards he was definitely poor and couldn't get enough of the pill to influence the game. It took him until round 7 to crack the SC tonne (I know it's supercoach, but it's a decent enough indicator of performance). Bailey definitely had a stretch of games of poor football too, as all second-year players do at some point. Walsh had an incredibly good finish to the year though, and that potentially puts him marginally in front in terms of performance this year. It's not a clear separation and I bet you could find plenty of neutrals that'd agree.
I think their year wasn't even enough to really make that statement. But then, a lot of people simply aren't watching the games this year, so maybe you're right.

I do believe Smith will go ahead of Walsh next year, but then again, that's just a gut feel and baseless position. Both incredibly talented players and wouldn't be that annoyed if it didn't happen, because it'd mean Walsh would be a star of the comp and you can't argue with that.
I think threads like this are near meaningless. Smith will be a gun, possibly inside the top 5 players running round within 4-5 seasons; Walsh will be the next captain of my club. We're both happy; why make ourselves unhappy by trying to find the blemish on the other bloke?

We're all privileged to watch that draft coterie run around.
Interesting you point out the HTB rule hurt Smith. I do believe that could've perhaps impacted his tendency and confidence to take on the tackler, but another factor could've been his concussion, which seemed to coincide with a small drop in form. Before then, he was literally our best midfielder (in a midfield with two players who were AA this year and another who was in the 40 last year, plus a revitalised Libba).

Agree to disagree I 'spose.
No, that's fair, I'd forgotten.

Here's hoping he's back to his best next year.
 

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