Ball users vs ball winners

[Collins-Langford-Ayres]

Hard to compare as most players are a combination of both.

Sam Mitchell was an elite ball winner but pretty close on user as well...

 

[Xhoquelin]

Ball winner for sure, playing on the front foot is what is proven in every sport. Collingwood remained competitive in every game this season because Adams Treloar Pendels Phillips De Goey etc, could win the clearances and contested balls.

However a team like GWS, West Coast or Adelaide will sometimes use a disadvantage in The contested side of midfield to play a faster counterattacking style and stack their team with great rebounder off half back ready to counter off bad ball use from the opposition. This works becaus so many teams right now have poor ball use, lie Collingwood, Melbourne, North, Saints, Port. For GWS Having mobile forwards and mids to run in behind the defence like Greene, Smith, Conglio, Kelly, Himmelberg also very key. Kennedy Haynes Williams Shaw Wilson all super key for GWS, losing Williams and Wilson gonna be a big loss for the Giants IMO and if they can’t start winning the contested footy they might just Be in for a bit of a shock. Their plan to play smaller this season only works at top 8 level if they have great rebound from defence, and even then they still need to be very good at winning contested foot to be a chance for the flag.

As for the Crows their counterattack was made possible by Jenkins and Lynch’s crazy gut run. Their defence has plenty of rebound with Lever, Smith, Laird. The loss of Lever’s intercepting will be understated IMO,against richmond their slick movement completely disappeared, no Brodie Smith really hurts too. Having Smith, meaning one of the Tigers’ mosquito fleet or Townsend would have to nullify Smith, could have freed up Lever to play a legit intercepting role,or most importantly allow the defenders that extra space to kick out of defence. Milera Hampton Doedee Cheney all going t be so crucial, you know Jenkins and Lynch will give Tex an option when he marks the ball at CHF or on the wing. You need the defence to start that beautiful ball movement though.

I personally think West Coastnot getting Wilson is a big loss, Karpany Rioli Ryan are all lightning and would be huge threats on the counter, Jetta is already a fantastic user and Gaff is a prrfect link man, but off half back with Hurns decline I think they lack one top notch half back, because you want Yeo and Duggan in the guts now. Losing Priddis and Mitchell makes their already unreliable ability to win the contested footy very shaky, and seeing as their only elit inside mid Shuey can’t handle a tag, they really need a Sheed, Yeo, or Duggan, or all three to step up otherwise finals is out of the question.

Think I may have been approaching a tangent and thus relevance may be iffy but yeah those ar some of my thoughts on how ball winners and ball users. TL;DR, you need both at a high standard, but with the success the Hawks had with a team of fantastic ball users and the success of Adelaide and GWS despair not really satisfying that elite contested mid criterion that almost every premiership team has, . I’m loath to downplay the real significance of great ball use.

Dee’s Crows in NT, Dee’s Giants, Crows Cats PF, half of the Pies’ losses and the first half of the 2015 GF where Eagles were winning a lot of clearances with Nc Nat yet couldn’t take the lead, are all the examples of elite ball use more than compensating for a weakness in winning the contested footy.

 

[Scodog10]

Depends on the team. I think those saying both in tandem are correct so using Collingwood as an example the good user would be more damaging because we have an over abundance of ball winners already. At GC for instance the effective ball winner would be more damaging, IMO.

 

[HairyO]

25% ball winning, 75% ball use.

Ball use also works when the opposition turns it over.

 

[Nunez]

The good ball user may have 10 less possessions but 5 more goal assists. While you certainly need both, a good ball user wins you games.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Need them both but bottom line is a good ball user you win flags with.
Priddis was a great ball winner but couldn’t hit a barn door 10m in front of him and hence his opponents just let him keep getting it as much as he wanted. Good ball users damage their opponents.

 

[kozi]

A good ball winner > an average ball user
A good ball user > an average ball winner.

Need a combination to make a good team

So a good player > an average player

Thanks for that.

 

[00Stinger]

What good is having a team of good ball users if there is noone to win the ball for them?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

[HumanMeatball]

Dustin Martin

 

[Chaisa]

Ideally you need both, and obviously the best players have both in their arsenal.

If I had to pick one though it'd be the ball winner.

 

[Dazb86]

well obviously... daniel and hunter are both shit.

Hahaha

 

[Damon_3388]

It’s why Jack Macrae and the Bont are much more valuable to the Bulldogs than say lachie hunter and Caleb Daniel

Who would argue otherwise?

 

[Damon_3388]

No point getting it if you are Shanks McKenzie though. I still have nightmares over disposals kings like Kane Tenace.

Good old Kane 'Straight Line Pace' Tenace.

 

[getgaff]

Need some of both in the best midfields.

Guess a good example from last year was Titch’s game against Collingwood where he had 50 touches. Had the ball on a string but his efficiency was poor.

 

[Danger!Selwood]

The answer is Sammy Mitchell. Elite at both

That the old west coast guy?

 

[QuietB]

That the old west coast guy?

Yeah him

Players who can do both are the most dangerous players in the league. Dusty, Bontempelli, maybe Sloane, there are actually not that many of them.

 

[Acinath]

Opposition coaches generally tag the users and let the winners do as they please.

Winners for me. Opposition coaches tag the users because you've got no hope of tagging an elite inside mid.

 

[leaper]

Tom Rockliff is a prime example of this, he has a number of games when he had 40+ possesions but I can't ever remember him kicking a match winning or team inspiring goal ala Beams/Zorko.

 

[Judd2Sewell]

Read the question. Which is more damaging, a ball winner or good ball user.


You bloody campaigners

You'd have to compare the best ball users to the best ball winners, but given most midfielders are a mix of both that's hard to do.

Personally I'd say the outside player has now potential you be damaging individually, but they generally rely on the ball winners to feed it to them. However the ball winners can potentially get more players involved overall, and thus they could become more influential on the whole.

 

[Bazzar]

Dusty, outstanding at both.

 

[Damon_3388]

Need some of both in the best midfields.

Guess a good example from last year was Titch’s game against Collingwood where he had 50 touches. Had the ball on a string but his efficiency was poor.

His efficiency (68%) wasn't especially poor considering how much contested ball he got (44% of his possessions were contested on the night), it's just that he didn't get the ball moving forward often enough (309 metres gained, 5th among Hawks and 11th among all players on the night) or have the hurt factor (5 clearances, 3 inside 50s, 0 goals, 0 goal assists) to match the large volume of touches he got.