Opinion Beams Trade: Did we overpay?

Beams deal: Did we overpay?

  • Yes

    Votes: 93 39.4%
  • No

    Votes: 143 60.6%

  • Total voters
    236

Knightmare

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I wont comment on Beams but given that you mention Reid, Dunn, Shazz and Goldsack in one breathe and ignoring Moore's last year I dont understand why Roughead isnt seem as sensible backup.
I rate Roughead behind that whole group as a KPP. I don't see any viability in him as a KPP. It's something he hasn't ever done to an AFL standard.

If used as a forward, he doesn't find enough of it, isn't much of a target and doesn't hit the scoreboard, so he's basically your average state leaguer up forward.

Down back he's poor 1v1, leaks goals and is not much of an intercepter or rebounder as a spoil first defender.

Ruck is the only position even as depth I see Roughead with his followup stuff and work around the ground while not on Grundy's level and probably areas Moore could cover him in if he played ruck, the areas that make him passable through there where you'd say he could be a depth option if needed.
 

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BeamStar17

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Not an overpay at all, fair value for a great player who puts you guys as flag contenders once again next year and 2020.

When you're in that flag contention position, next year's pick isn't a worry when success is available IMO.

Lachie Neale is what I'd consider a slight overpay but sometimes you have to overpay to get the best, especially from the Lions perspective, unfortunately.

Sorry for intruding but just an interesting topic and obviously a big fan of Beama.
 
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I wont comment on Beams but given that you mention Reid, Dunn, Shazz and Goldsack in one breathe and ignoring Moore's last year I dont understand why Roughead isnt seem as sensible backup.
Roughead is also a legitimate backup for Grundy and cox. Given Moore is made out of tissue paper, that’s a good thing
 
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The way I see it, we were likely going to use 18 on Quaynor/Kelly. We should get them anyway with the return picks. So in my mind we only paid a future 1st.

Unless we fall off the cliff, that future 1st should be somewhere between 12-18. Give me the choice of a 29 year old Beams for 4-5 years or a speculative pick between 12-18 for 10+ years, im taking Beams every day of the week.

Only way we regret it is if we somehow go backwards in the next 5 years with Beamer in the side, and a team picks up an absolute superstar (De Goey-esque) next year that we could have had.

The band is back together!
 

surfer1

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I rate Roughead behind that whole group as a KPP. I don't see any viability in him as a KPP. It's something he hasn't ever done to an AFL standard.

If used as a forward, he doesn't find enough of it, isn't much of a target and doesn't hit the scoreboard, so he's basically your average state leaguer up forward.

Down back he's poor 1v1, leaks goals and is not much of an intercepter or rebounder as a spoil first defender.

Ruck is the only position even as depth I see Roughead with his followup stuff and work around the ground while not on Grundy's level and probably areas Moore could cover him in if he played ruck, the areas that make him passable through there where you'd say he could be a depth option if needed.
Understand the analysis but am prepared to see how he goes as KPP and back up ruck to me its a sensible acquisition
 

Finnishpie

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Did we overpay? Question will be answered by whether we win a flag or not during his second stint. But even if we don’t, he’s a champion and will bring us closer.
 

Cyclops

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The age had a sensible short vs long term trade off, we gave away a lot but as said we have FS and academy picks this year. I suspect we will have reason to regret that 2019 first rounder (I reckon we won't be top four, too many battered boys). However we will be in the finals for a few years you'd think.

Short term its a massive win, we get a proven gun mid who kicks goals for another 2-3 seasons, maybe more. With the horrible expansion clubs sucking the quality out of the pool (Collingwood would have won three flags with GWS's list instead of one, Hawthorn six or so and most clubs at least one-there's been heaps of wasted talent at GWS and GC) there's a lot of quality smart older players lingering (Ablett and Goddard spring to mind). Beams might be worth a spot well into his thirties, who knows.

2 first rounders for Gibbs is a joke, he's not worth that and its inflated the market. Beams price was lower so we're not robbed, just paid over by a bit overall.

Not sure if we should trade for Heater and bring Dids out of retirement but it will be grand to see Beams out there with Sidey again. I never grudged him his move to be with his family (I believe his bro was a bit off the rails as well as his dad being sick). Very sentimental about his return.

So...

..should we...

....nah...

...but should we have asked Carlton about Daisy? I would love to have him back.
 

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Don't know how you can classify an overpay on the following attributes -

1. AAA Class midfielder
2. Two years of minimal injury woes
3. Club captain (proven leadership)
4. Heart and soul with the club (not money driven)
5. Fan favorite
6. 8th in the 2018 brownlow (3 votes off 3rd place)
8. Premiership player
9. Already close friends with players at the club
10. All Australian, Collingwood B&F, Brisbane B&F

seriously.. what more could you want? Unless he can put on a cape and fly like superman, there is not much you could fault on this guy. Some say his age, but he has at least 3 years left in him so also a non-issue.

pick 18 or next year's pick... could we guarantee that we will get a guy as good as this? Could be a nobody, or some middle of the road type that adds little value. If anything... we underpaid.

Also... this is a guy that has been playing on a terrible team for the past few years. His ability would have been overlooked due to teammates not being able to compete at a high enough level on the majority of games. I put him in the same boat as Cripps and Fyfe in terms of being able to still perform at an elite level, without much help.
 

Bramax

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Not an overpay at all, fair value for a great player who puts you guys as flag contenders once again next year and 2020.

When you're in that flag contention position, next year's pick isn't a worry when success is available IMO.

Lachie Neale is what I'd consider a slight overpay but sometimes you have to overpay to get the best, especially from the Lions perspective, unfortunately.

Sorry for intruding but just an interesting topic and obviously a big fan of Beama.
I think both clubs deserve a lot of credit for allowing Beams to move between our clubs for personal reasons. For sure trades were brokered and he. And at a price but Collingwood and Brisbane balanced the business/human element pretty well. And everyone is s fan of Beama mate.
 

Robroy22

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Beamer is a missing piece, I've missed him and it'll be great to have him back because he compliments our midfield.

  • Pendles and Wells are Silk.
  • Bear and Tay Tay are bash brothers (or Conan and little Conan)
  • Sidey is the pimpernel
  • Treloar is like Swanny was ... our engine
  • Beamer has always been decisive. He's a Cold Blooded Killer on field. He sees things and does them. Forget what he's like in interviews, the footy field is where he's at home and once he crosses the white line he's almost Greg Williams. He's a point of difference in our midfield and we will flourish having his tough, decisive manner on the field.
 

MarkT2

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Everything is assumption based. If you don’t make assumptions then you’re sitting on the fence.

I assume that between Dunn Goldsack Reid and Roughead we have enough temporary key defence ammunition to hold the fort until Moore and shaz get fully fit and our newer draftees like mclarty and Kelly develop.

I also assume that the club knows only too well what quaynor and Kelly are worth.

I also assume that beams will improve our team
I aprreciate it is all assumptions. I assume Shaz and Reid won't play much meaningful footy. Regardless Shaz is not a KP defender. Dunn is ageing and comming off a knee. A meaningfull contribution at FB in September is possible but not probable IMO. He is one that could come into the side during the year but he won't have a pre season. Goldsack can't play KP defence. He was admirable in the finals but not good enough in any of the 3 games when it mattered. It's just not his position.

I hope Moore can get fit and play to the level that looked likely early in his career and I hope Roughead was an inspired pickup but he a premiership player let go by his club even after they lost Adams.

Back to the Beams deal - I'm happy to have him and assume he will be the missing link in out midfield. He's top 5 B&F or better which as a relacement for someone like Aish is a material improvement.
 

MarkT2

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Bolded are those I consider more valuable or project to be over the span of their careers more valuable than 60 games from Beams. Italics for those too early to say.
Good post. Just 2 comments:
Leroy Jetta was a good player in a premierhsip so probaby deserves to be bolded in comparrison to some of the others.
60 Games from Beams - only 1 needs to be a good game in a premiership to make him worth much more than 2 pick 18s.
It's a poor trade if we are mid table and sliding. It's a great trade if we are in the 2019 GF.
 
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I don't know all that much about the draft kids but aren't both King brothers (not to mention Lukosius) rated much higher than Kelly?? If memory serves correct one of them gave Kelly a belting one on one?
Sorry, yes your right. Probably meant best KPP defender which Toomey quoted but in saying that the King boys are probably still best at both ends.
 

PhiloBeddoe

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What the **** would we know when the true master, Ricky Captain Underpants Nixon reckons that we underpaid by so much that there had to be a secret side deal in place.

I might just start a rumor

2019. Stevo to Brisbane for Mitch Robinson and a future second.
 

Knightmare

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Good post. Just 2 comments:
Leroy Jetta was a good player in a premierhsip so probaby deserves to be bolded in comparrison to some of the others.
60 Games from Beams - only 1 needs to be a good game in a premiership to make him worth much more than 2 pick 18s.
It's a poor trade if we are mid table and sliding. It's a great trade if we are in the 2019 GF.
I could have listed another dozen who are better than Jetta, but I really wanted to stick with the most extremely impressive who I'd take comfortably ahead of 60-65 games from Beams.

Your last point is the key though. If Beams helps Collingwood to premiership 16, it's a win. If not. It's not.
 

Saintly Viewed

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If Beams helps Collingwood to premiership 16, it's a win. If not. It's not.
Cant help but admire the way you’ve set the goal posts there.

Only a premiership will do.
That’s very clever.

Ofcourse a club wins the flag all decisions essentially become vindicated.
There’s zero room to move.

This way not winning a flag, (which the odds are always against winning flags), means the Beams trade can be called a failure.

Very shrewd tactic.

Ultimately the trade for Beams can only be seen in a context of who Collingwood would have taken in the two picks then watch it all play out.
Ofcourse that itself is too difficult as we’ll not know who we would have chosen.

That said, let’s imagine for theory sake Collingwood traded the Beams picks to say Gold Coast for whatever reason and we got puck 2.

We select Lukosius.

We don’t win a flag in all the time he’s with us - a whole Nick Riewoldt career of no flags.

Your logic dictates then, that trade of picks is a failure?

My main point is, flags might be the ultimate arbiter but that’s sometimes is a too narrow goal post setting to judge on.
 

Knightmare

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Cant help but admire the way you’ve set the goal posts there.

Only a premiership will do.
That’s very clever.

Ofcourse a club wins the flag all decisions essentially become vindicated.
There’s zero room to move.

This way not winning a flag, (which the odds are always against winning flags), means the Beams trade can be called a failure.

Very shrewd tactic.

Ultimately the trade for Beams can only be seen in a context of who Collingwood would have taken in the two picks then watch it all play out.
Ofcourse that itself is too difficult as we’ll not know who we would have chosen.

That said, let’s imagine for theory sake Collingwood traded the Beams picks to say Gold Coast for whatever reason and we got puck 2.

We select Lukosius.

We don’t win a flag in all the time he’s with us - a whole Nick Riewoldt career of no flags.

Your logic dictates then, that trade of picks is a failure?

My main point is, flags might be the ultimate arbiter but that’s sometimes is a too narrow goal post setting to judge on.
The difference in this case is Beams has maybe four years remaining.

For balance, to think of the benefit of him being here beyond his what should be excellent production during this time will be leadership, just as an extra voice and further help to youth development.

If a Lukosius or anyone through the draft is drafted. I do see the goal posts as being different.

Beams you can't just straight compare with pick 18 and whatever next years pick is by who the best player was at that pick or later in hindsight, nor can you go based on the player actually picked with that pick as it's not necessarily/probably not who Collingwood would use the pick on rating players differently and having different list needs to the next side. And for that reason you can't compare Beams to whoever was eventually taken with those choices that Collingwood would have had, as they're likely different players, and in a different situation where the development may be slightly different to that experienced at Collingwood with opportunities/coaching/leadership all variables in play.

If a Lukosius or whoever through the draft is picked. You're determining based of those available and those next few taken whether the recruiting choice was the right one against others in the draft. So if you have pick 2. You're then looking at Rankine/Rozee/the King brothers and Smith to see whether Lukosius has gone better than most of them.

Perhaps you could look at those taken with that pick or within the next five if you really wanted to break it down picks v Beams is the other way to potentially break it down.

Though my personal view is Beams is a premiership or bust player, with Collingwood having had opportunities to add others instead - Steven May being just one example - and had Collingwood traded both first round picks, we don't know this, but Gold Coast may have considered the offer.

So with so many variables in play, I'm looking at Beams as someone who you've done well in the trade for if he helps the club to a premiership, or otherwise was probably not the right move if Collingwood as I suspect will be the case fall short.
 
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