Toast Beer / Homebrew Thread

[Doashuey]

The more I read up on it the more I realise that I'm just not smart enough for the water chemistry part.



Yeah that'd work a treat. Next time I'm looking for something to spend my money on that I don't quite need I'll go for it!

Water chem doesnt need to be difficult. Just use a good calculator, plug in what you are starting with and just use Gypsum (CaSO4) and CaCl2 to adjust your chloride to sulfate ratios to what suits your intended style. Ignore Na and Mg. Keeping your calcium in check may be the hard part in Perth as the water is very hard.
If all else fails, add a tsp CaSO4 and the same of CaCl2 for a single batch- this is a fairly safe bet for decent brewing water. Add an extra tsp of caSO4 for IPAs or if doing a NEIPA, go an extra tsp CaCl2. Most other styles the 1:1 will work.
Then adjust the pH of strike water and sparge water with whatever acid you have on hand to achieve roughly 5.4pH.

Blowties from Kegland are the go for a spunding valve. About $38 including disconnect and gauge. Best ones Ive used.

 

[Bender_]

Water chem doesnt need to be difficult. Just use a good calculator, plug in what you are starting with and just use Gypsum (CaSO4) and CaCl2 to adjust your chloride to sulfate ratios to what suits your intended style. Ignore Na and Mg. Keeping your calcium in check may be the hard part in Perth as the water is very hard.
If all else fails, add a tsp CaSO4 and the same of CaCl2 for a single batch- this is a fairly safe bet for decent brewing water. Add an extra tsp of caSO4 for IPAs or if doing a NEIPA, go an extra tsp CaCl2. Most other styles the 1:1 will work.
Then adjust the pH of strike water and sparge water with whatever acid you have on hand to achieve roughly 5.4pH.

Blowties from Kegland are the go for a spunding valve. About $38 including disconnect and gauge. Best ones Ive used.

Right, trying to get my head around this:

Brewers Friend asks for these in its calculation:



CA+2 (Calcium)
MG+2 (Magnesium)
SO4-2 (Sulphate)
CI- (Chlorine)
HCO-3 ( = CaCO3 x 1.22)

(please tell me if I have any info wrong)

And my local water report gives me mean results for these categories:


Alkalinity (as CaCO3) = 55
Aluminium = 0.014
Chloride = 121
Hardness = 68
Iron = 0.039
Manganese = 0.008
pH = 7.56
Silicon = 3.4
Sodium = 73
TDS = 313


How do I get the amounts for the initial categories from the results above?

 

[FKASC]

Yeah I have a blowtie and use it to regulate the gas out when filling kegs from the fermenter. Periodically pulling the PRV works ok too, just not as steady.

It’s annoying that Perth water is hard because it’s so easy to manage your water additions in Melbourne. The tap water is practically distilled, it has nothing in it whatsoever. You can get away with adding 3 ml of lactic acid to get the pH down, and then ~4 grams each of calcium chloride and calcium sulphate to get calcium up past 50 ppm and chloride/sulphate up around the 80 ppm mark.

I don’t test water either - the water suppliers here have reports they they make available online but also there was a Melbourne home brewers document online somewhere that had the average ppm of everything

It’s really not that complicated. I would however suggest using the spreadsheet called EZ Water Calculator instead of Bru-N Water

The latter is way too involved and gives you more than you need. It’s fine if you want to recreate historical geographical water profiles but you really don’t need to do that

 

[Doashuey]

So you need to set your water profile- will probably be under your profile where you set your equipment profile etc.
Then a matter of plugging in those numbers. Very strange that there is no calcium or sulfate listed there- you really need those numbers. Chloride is very high as well so you wont be needing any CaCl2 additions. Ignore the other metals (Aluminium iron mangangese and silicon etc).

To be honest, looking at those numbers, Im not sure you will be adding anything more to it other than acid to adjust pH. If I were to start brewing beers such as pilsners, rice lagers, blonde ales Kosch etc, I would seriously look into getting an RO system and starting with a clean slate. That water looks shizen for beers that will be impacted by high salt contents.

 

[FKASC]

Right, trying to get my head around this:

Brewers Friend asks for these in its calculation:

View attachment 1112824

CA+2 (Calcium)
MG+2 (Magnesium)
SO4-2 (Sulphate)
CI- (Chlorine)
HCO-3 ( = CaCO3 x 1.22)

(please tell me if I have any info wrong)

And my local water report gives me mean results for these categories:


Alkalinity (as CaCO3) = 55
Aluminium = 0.014
Chloride = 121
Hardness = 68
Iron = 0.039
Manganese = 0.008
pH = 7.56
Silicon = 3.4
Sodium = 73
TDS = 313


How do I get the amounts for the initial categories from the results above?

Youve got what you need except for calcium and sulphate. Ignore iron, manganese, TDS, aluminium etc.

I believe you can convert hardness to calcium ppm but not sure exactly how

maybe google sulphate Perth water report.

also it’s chloride not chlorine. You don’t want the latter

 

[Bender_]

So you need to set your water profile- will probably be under your profile where you set your equipment profile etc.
Then a matter of plugging in those numbers. Very strange that there is no calcium or sulfate listed there- you really need those numbers. Chloride is very high as well so you wont be needing any CaCl2 additions. Ignore the other metals (Aluminium iron mangangese and silicon etc)

So this is where I'm going to sound like a t@rd: which of those results match with which category?

 

[Bender_]

Youve got what you need except for calcium and sulphate. Ignore iron, manganese, TDS, aluminium etc.

I believe you can convert hardness to calcium ppm but not sure exactly how

maybe google sulphate Perth water report.

also it’s chloride not chlorine. You don’t want the latter

As per my last post, which one goes where.

 

[Doashuey]

As per my last post, which one goes where.

You only have numbers for Chloride (Cl) , Sodium (Na) and alkalinity. So unless you can fidn the others your water report will be incomplete, and really not much use.

 

[FKASC]

As per my last post, which one goes where.

The first three you don’t know yet. However ignore magnesium because it’s irrelevant. It’s important for yeast health apparently but the malt provides all it needs.

Chloride is 121
HCO3 is 67 (55 x 1.22)

This post on a brewing forum might give an idea of the calcium and sulphates - but depends how much the water supply varies across Perth

Difficult water profile - Perth

Hello Just about to complete my first all grain set up. Been doing extract + grains for years. Requested a water report for my local treatment plant. Here it is: Here's my report: Alkalinity as CaCO3 (mg/L) - Median 73 Calcium (mg/L) - Median 23 Chloride (mg/L) - Median 177 Hardness as CaCO3...

aussiehomebrewer.com

 

[Bender_]

You only have numbers for Chloride (Cl) , Sodium (Na) and alkalinity. So unless you can fidn the others your water report will be incomplete, and really not much use.

Well that sux balls then. Appreciate the help nonetheless.

 

[Doashuey]

Youve got what you need except for calcium and sulphate. Ignore iron, manganese, TDS, aluminium etc.

I believe you can convert hardness to calcium ppm but not sure exactly how

maybe google sulphate Perth water report.

also it’s chloride not chlorine. You don’t want the latter

Of course! Duh.

Ca is approx 40% of CaCo3 by weight so you are looking at about 22mg/L of Ca.

 

[Doashuey]

Based on Spaceys link and what you have found then I think safe to go with this:
Alkalinity as CaCO3 (mg/L) - 73
Calcium (mg/L) - 23
Chloride (mg/L) - 177
Hardness as CaCO3 (mg/L) - 71
Magnesium (mg/L) - 4.3
Sodium (mg/L) - 117
Sulphate (mg/L) - 13

So looks like you will only need to add Gypsum to up your Ca and SO4.

To find out an ideal profile (or close to it) just google Cl:SO4 ratio for X style and it should give you an idea. Unfortunately you are a bit restricted by a high Cl level but it will work for some styles.

 

[Bender_]

The first three you don’t know yet. However ignore magnesium because it’s irrelevant. It’s important for yeast health apparently but the malt provides all it needs.

Chloride is 121
HCO3 is 67 (55 x 1.22)

This post on a brewing forum might give an idea of the calcium and sulphates - but depends how much the water supply varies across Perth

Difficult water profile - Perth

Hello Just about to complete my first all grain set up. Been doing extract + grains for years. Requested a water report for my local treatment plant. Here it is: Here's my report: Alkalinity as CaCO3 (mg/L) - Median 73 Calcium (mg/L) - Median 23 Chloride (mg/L) - Median 177 Hardness as CaCO3...

aussiehomebrewer.com

I'll look into requesting a report maybe.

 

[Bender_]

Based on Spaceys link and what you have found then I think safe to go with this:
Alkalinity as CaCO3 (mg/L) - 73
Calcium (mg/L) - 23
Chloride (mg/L) - 177
Hardness as CaCO3 (mg/L) - 71
Magnesium (mg/L) - 4.3
Sodium (mg/L) - 117
Sulphate (mg/L) - 13

So looks like you will only need to add Gypsum to up your Ca and SO4.

To find out an ideal profile (or close to it) just google Cl:SO4 ratio for X style and it should give you an idea. Unfortunately you are a bit restricted by a high Cl level but it will work for some styles.

Nice!

Just confirming, You say gypsum, is that another name for Calcium Sulphate?

 

[FKASC]

Based on Spaceys link and what you have found then I think safe to go with this:
Alkalinity as CaCO3 (mg/L) - 73
Calcium (mg/L) - 23
Chloride (mg/L) - 177
Hardness as CaCO3 (mg/L) - 71
Magnesium (mg/L) - 4.3
Sodium (mg/L) - 117
Sulphate (mg/L) - 13

So looks like you will only need to add Gypsum to up your Ca and SO4.

To find out an ideal profile (or close to it) just google Cl:SO4 ratio for X style and it should give you an idea. Unfortunately you are a bit restricted by a high Cl level but it will work for some styles.

TBH unless you want very crisp beer - like a Pilsner, or a traditional British IPA - the trend now seems to be for more of a chloride balance or chloride heavy beers anyway.

I think there was this myth that chloride heavy meant you’d end up with less hop presence but that’s been proven wrong now that hazy IPA brewers use ridiculous amounts of chloride.

it’s more about soft vs crisp, not malt vs hops which is what used to be the assumption

 

[Bender_]

TBH unless you want very crisp beer - like a Pilsner, or a traditional British IPA - the trend now seems to be for more of a chloride balance or chloride heavy beers anyway.

I think there was this myth that chloride heavy meant you’d end up with less hop presence but that’s been proven wrong now that hazy IPA brewers use ridiculous amounts of chloride.

it’s more about soft vs crisp, not malt vs hops which is what used to be the assumption

What about using a campden tablet to reduce chloride?

 

[Doashuey]

TBH unless you want very crisp beer - like a Pilsner, or a traditional British IPA - the trend now seems to be for more of a chloride balance or chloride heavy beers anyway.

I think there was this myth that chloride heavy meant you’d end up with less hop presence but that’s been proven wrong now that hazy IPA brewers use ridiculous amounts of chloride.

it’s more about soft vs crisp, not malt vs hops which is what used to be the assumption

For mouthfeel yes. For hop punch, a 2:1 SO4 to Cl is still better IMO. NEIPAs use high Cl as they are trying to create a very soft mouthfeel, the massive amounts of hops allow for this as they will come through anyway. In a WCIPA, the higher sulfate ratio does tend to give them more punch and aroma. But yeah for most hoppy dark or big flavoured beers you will get away with >150mg/L Cl.
Maybe look at diluting half your water with some store brought stuff to half your salts? That Sodium is very high too.

 

[Doashuey]

What about using a campden tablet to reduce chloride?

That will reduce chlorine and chloramines- not Chloride.

 

[Bender_]

That will reduce chlorine and chloramines- not Chloride.

Cool - I've already been adding the ascorbic acid in that case anyway.

What I've read the PH should come down automatically in the mash, but you guys think I should still add lactic acid?

 

[FKASC]

What about using a campden tablet to reduce chloride?

No, but honestly I wouldn’t worry about it. Someone in my homebrew club recently mentioned a podcast with a pretty big brewery saying they go with massive ratios like 400 ppm chloride to 100 ppm sulphate for their NEIPA.

So having something like 177 ppm chloride to 250 ppm sulphate is not going to be out of the ordinary.

we are making the water chem stuff sound more complicated than it needs to be.

Chloride/Sulphate are flavour preference ions and you’ll still get a good beer regardless of where they’re at.

The most important thing is to get the pH down below a certain level otherwise the enzymes in the malt don’t work as well as they should and your mash will be sub-optimal.

Calcium as a rule should be around 50-100 ppm, as that will lower the pH of your mash and help with the enzymes.

It also apparently helps with clarifying your wort and beer down the track (not enough calcium = potential yeast and proteins floating in beer).

Another way to reduce the mash pH for optimal mashing is to add acid to the water, especially if you’re not using any dark/kilned malts, which are more acidic than pale malts.

Anything other than pH and minimum calcium is personal preference and you can ignore it til you get used to it.

edit - I also doubt the high sodium will make a difference.

 

[Bender_]

Colour on my Belgian fail ale is not too bad so far:

 

[Bender_]

Water chem doesnt need to be difficult. Just use a good calculator, plug in what you are starting with and just use Gypsum (CaSO4) and CaCl2 to adjust your chloride to sulfate ratios to what suits your intended style. Ignore Na and Mg. Keeping your calcium in check may be the hard part in Perth as the water is very hard.
If all else fails, add a tsp CaSO4 and the same of CaCl2 for a single batch- this is a fairly safe bet for decent brewing water. Add an extra tsp of caSO4 for IPAs or if doing a NEIPA, go an extra tsp CaCl2. Most other styles the 1:1 will work.
Then adjust the pH of strike water and sparge water with whatever acid you have on hand to achieve roughly 5.4pH.

Blowties from Kegland are the go for a spunding valve. About $38 including disconnect and gauge. Best ones Ive used.

Okay so let me know if I'm getting this right, the water calculator doesn't tell me what to add to get the exact levels of the water, instead I add minerals to get a desired ratio to meet the style?

Now last part, is there a calculator to help me to adjust the pH of the waters by letting me know acid amounts?

 

[Doashuey]

edit - I also doubt the high sodium will make a difference.

Not if you like Gose If you are doing a delicate beer then this will impact it and you will get a much better beer without it.

Okay so let me know if I'm getting this right, the water calculator doesn't tell me what to add to get the exact levels of the water, instead I add minerals to get a desired ratio to meet the style?

Now last part, is there a calculator to help me to adjust the pH of the waters by letting me know acid amounts?

Yes using Brewers friend first enter you water profile. Then in you recipe go down to water additions and hit link recipe button. Thus will take you to another page. Select desired profile- i usually stick to light and hoppy, light and malty or ballanced to suite the beer. Then scroll down to your additives and start playing around with amounnts until you are close to desired. Further down are acid additions. Clicl on the add acid to desired pH button and it should give the amount required.

 

[Bender_]

Not if you like Gose If you are doing a delicate beer then this will impact it and you will get a much better beer without it.

Yes using Brewers friend first enter you water profile. Then in you recipe go down to water additions and hit link recipe button. Thus will take you to another page. Select desired profile- i usually stick to light and hoppy, light and malty or ballanced to suite the beer. Then scroll down to your additives and start playing around with amounnts until you are close to desired. Further down are acid additions. Clicl on the add acid to desired pH button and it should give the amount required.

Cool, thanks. It's saying 2.75ml of lactic to achieve the 5.4pH. So basically like you guys said: 4 tsp of Gypsum and 3 mls of lactic acid!


Should I continue with the ascorbic acid too?

Thanks mate and FKASC you have been a great help.

 

[DanWCE]