Toast Beer / Homebrew Thread

[FKASC]

PS: FKASC you've now opened yourself up to (even more of) a barrage of question relating directly to starters.

All good man, happy to answer Qs.

Like most things, it sounds more complicated when reading online than it actually is.

Another advantage is you can revive your old yeast sludge that you save from previous batches, if you don’t want to repurchase it

 

[Bender_]

All good man, happy to answer Qs.

Like most things, it sounds more complicated when reading online than it actually is.

Another advantage is you can revive your old yeast sludge that you save from previous batches, if you don’t want to repurchase it

Okay some questions:

1: Does it matter what DME I use - as in should it be the same style of beer I'm trying to make or not?

2: Some information I saw said to ferment all starters at 18 degrees, even for lagers. Thoughts?

3: Can I boil my wort directly in my Erlenmeyer flask?

4: Do I really need to calculate it or should I just be right with a standard 100g/1L starter for a high gravity beer like Belgian strongs?

5: So after 48hrs, I can plonk it in my fridge to flocculate for a day or 2 then decant before dumping in the full batch wort?

Cheers

 

[FKASC]

Okay some questions:

1: Does it matter what DME I use - as in should it be the same style of beer I'm trying to make or not?
Nah. Unless you’re making a pale lager and want to use dark DME, you can use whatever the hell you like. It’s not going to be a big enough proportion to make a difference either way.

2: Some information I saw said to ferment all starters at 18 degrees, even for lagers. Thoughts?
I think you just want to do it at a reasonable room temp. I wouldn’t bother with temp control unless it was freezing cold in your house and you were using a British ale yeast.

3: Can I boil my wort directly in my Erlenmeyer flask?
If it’s tempered glass yeah, although I think there’s always a slight risk. You don’t need to boil the DME for long though - I usually just pour the DME into the flask and then pour boiling water on top. Give it a swirl to dissolve - that’ll be hot enough for long enough to effectively pasteurise it. Obviously you should sanitise the s**t out of your flask first, as you would your fermenter.
4: Do I really need to calculate it or should I just be right with a standard 100g/1L starter for a high gravity beer like Belgian strongs?
The rule of thumb is that a 1:10 ratio is sufficient for starters and makes it simple to calculate.

No point going with much higher gravity than that as it puts pressure on the yeast and won’t result in much more growth.

The capacity for reproduction (I think) is mostly determined by the volume of your starter, not the gravity. So I think it’s not the case that doubling the gravity will double the amount of yeast you end up with.

Whether you go with 1L or more/less in total is a different question. For a standard gravity beer I think 1L is enough, unless your yeast is super old. If you have a bigger vessel/flask then going for 1.5L as standard will be safest.

5: So after 48hrs, I can plonk it in my fridge to flocculate for a day or 2 then decant before dumping in the full batch wort?
This is when things get a bit debated in terms of personal preference as some people let it ferment out and decant, and some add the lot while it’s active.

One advantage of dumping all in when it’s most active is that you can just do it the day before, but honestly I think either approach is perfectly fine.

Personally I don’t chill it unless it’s really powdery. I just leave it alone and it settles pretty well then I’ll just decant until I start pouring out yeast and then dump it all in. You won’t taste the difference in the end product.

I’ve left comments above

the other thing that you’ll no doubt read about is shaking/oxygen/stirring etc. I don’t use my stir plate anymore unless I’m doing a huge beer. I just give it a shake/swirl every few hours and that’s enough. You’ve got pure oxygen right? Or was that someone else. That’d be even better

One last thing - if you don’t have a big flask you can go with 100g/1L, grow and decant. Then boil up another 100g/1L in a saucepan, let it cool, and then add to the decanted yeast. That’s like double the growth without needing a huge flask

 

[BigBirdz]

Used it once and only one variety (sigmund voss). Thing with Kveik is that it’s not one type of yeast, there’s heaps of strains that all have wildly different flavour and aroma characteristics.

see https://www.garshol.priv.no/blog/393.html

I think all of them need to be fermented pretty hot (like 28°C+), but in terms of tast some are super clean, some have strong orange rind flavours, some have mango/tropical vibes, some are spicy like saison yeast, etc.

they get a wrap for being easy to use but in reality it’s not really the case. They’re kinda the opposite to regular yeast. They need to be kept hot, and need fairly high gravity wort or they can stall. So if it’s summer in Perth and you’re fermenting something strong in your shed, it’s totally perfect. But if you want to do it in winter you’ll need a heat pad.

They do finish very quickly though so great if you want to turn something around in a week. Also you’ll never need a starter because you only need a pretty small amount to ferment with - people use a teaspoon of liquid kveik for a whole batch!

I’m not convinced by it but I have only used one of the more boring varieties and not one they tend to use for NEIPAs like Ebbegarden.

Thanks for the info mate, I appreciate it.
I've got this dry one. Hopefully it's a decent strain

Apparently you can just harvest the foam off the top of the ferment on day 2 and dry it on baking paper then chuck it in the freezer and it's good for 20years .
I'm definitely interested.

 

[FKASC]

Thanks for the info mate, I appreciate it.
I've got this dry one. Hopefully it's a decent strain View attachment 990609

Apparently you can just harvest the foam off the top of the ferment on day 2 and dry it on baking paper then chuck it in the freezer and it's good for 20years .
I'm definitely interested.

Yeah there's heaps of info on how to dry it. People use literally tiny flakes in whole batches. I'd be keen to hear how it turns out for you. The new Lallemand Verdant yeast is also meant to be quite good for hazy fruity IPAs.

 

[Bender_]

I’ve left comments above

the other thing that you’ll no doubt read about is shaking/oxygen/stirring etc. I don’t use my stir plate anymore unless I’m doing a huge beer. I just give it a shake/swirl every few hours and that’s enough. You’ve got pure oxygen right? Or was that someone else. That’d be even better

One last thing - if you don’t have a big flask you can go with 100g/1L, grow and decant. Then boil up another 100g/1L in a saucepan, let it cool, and then add to the decanted yeast. That’s like double the growth without needing a huge flask

Cheers mate, all very handy info. What's the reason behind you not using the stir plate anymore? Yeah I've got the oxygen kit - are you saying give it dash of O2 every few hours?

Also, is there a legitimate danger in over pitching?

 

[FKASC]

Cheers mate, all very handy info. What's the reason behind you not using the stir plate anymore? Yeah I've got the oxygen kit - are you saying give it dash of O2 every few hours?

Also, is there a legitimate danger in over pitching?

Stir plate - i just can't really be bothered. I think my flask is a bit too big for my cheapo plate so sometimes the spinny thing (i.e. these things) gets knocked off its orbit and ends up sitting on the side of the flask sitting there doing nothing.

But if I was doing a 2+ litre starter for a lager or a high grav beer, I would probably use it again.

I would give it a blast from the oxy kit just before you add the yeast and then just shake it every few hours to keep things in suspension. I suspect that would be plenty enough for a starter. Most people don't have pure oxygen so you're already one step ahead.

I think the only real 'danger' in overpitching is that the beer might come out a bit lifeless in terms of the usual flavour that the yeast imparts. Because it doesn't have to grow as much, it doesn't produce as much of its tasty by products. This would only really be a factor for european beers where you want esters etc. But if you are doing a clean beer, this is not going to be an issue.

final disclaimer is I wouldn't bother doing it for dry yeast unless you only have one sachet and have a huge beer to ferment. Same process applies though for dry yeast.

 

[Bender_]

Stir plate - i just can't really be bothered. I think my flask is a bit too big for my cheapo plate so sometimes the spinny thing (i.e. these things) gets knocked off its orbit and ends up sitting on the side of the flask sitting there doing nothing.

But if I was doing a 2+ litre starter for a lager or a high grav beer, I would probably use it again.

I would give it a blast from the oxy kit just before you add the yeast and then just shake it every few hours to keep things in suspension. I suspect that would be plenty enough for a starter. Most people don't have pure oxygen so you're already one step ahead.

I think the only real 'danger' in overpitching is that the beer might come out a bit lifeless in terms of the usual flavour that the yeast imparts. Because it doesn't have to grow as much, it doesn't produce as much of its tasty by products. This would only really be a factor for european beers where you want esters etc. But if you are doing a clean beer, this is not going to be an issue.

final disclaimer is I wouldn't bother doing it for dry yeast unless you only have one sachet and have a huge beer to ferment. Same process applies though for dry yeast.

Cool. I've already bought all the smack packs for the Pils so won't give it a go until early next year where I'll try a Belgian strong ale, but think I'll do what you said about doubling up in a smaller batch for that one. Still waiting on the shards in the mail!

 

[FKASC]

Cool. I've already bought all the smack packs for the Pils so won't give it a go until early next year where I'll try a Belgian strong ale, but think I'll do what you said about doubling up in a smaller batch for that one. Still waiting on the shards in the mail!

Haha i haven't cooked up any shards lately. The belgian I made with it was a bit underwhelming so I'm wondering whether it was worth it or not. I think i'll get it a bit darker next time.

 

[Bender_]

Haha i haven't cooked up any shards lately. The belgian I made with it was a bit underwhelming so I'm wondering whether it was worth it or not. I think i'll get it a bit darker next time.

Where did you add the candy syrup on yours? I've read some saying to do it in the mash and some in the boil. Think I'd personally stick with the boil to avoid any complications with a stuck sparge.

Also added the gelatine finings to my saison this morning - let it fully dissolve whilst heating the water by one 30 second zap at a time in a microwave just below boiling then gently stirred it into the cold crashed wort. Not sure how clear it's going to be with the strawberry addition, but should be interesting to see regardless.

 

[Bender_]

Thoughts on this recipe for a Belgian:

Grain:

5kg JW Pilsner Malt

1.5kg WY Munich T2 Malt

115g DG Special B Malt

Candi Syrup: 1l Belgian D-180 Candi Syrup

Hops:

30g Hersbrucker – 60min

15g Styrian Golding – 20min

Yeast: Wyeast – 1214 Belgian Abbey (probably make a double starter at least)

 

[FKASC]

Thoughts on this recipe for a Belgian:

Grain:

5kg JW Pilsner Malt

1.5kg WY Munich T2 Malt

115g DG Special B Malt

Candi Syrup: 1l Belgian D-180 Candi Syrup

Hops:

30g Hersbrucker – 60min

15g Styrian Golding – 20min

Yeast: Wyeast – 1214 Belgian Abbey (probably make a double starter at least)

I’d probably just use styrian for both additions to save buying two hop packets. Doubt there’s much separating them

I’m not very good at making recipes for Belgian styles though. I would probably suggest buying just one pouch of D180, doubling the special B, and adding a bit of caramunich 2 or 3.

that 1L of candi will cost like $30!

To answer your Q before, I added the dark shards in the boil - near the end

 

[Bender_]

I’d probably just use styrian for both additions to save buying two hop packets. Doubt there’s much separating them

I’m not very good at making recipes for Belgian styles though. I would probably suggest buying just one pouch of D180, doubling the special B, and adding a bit of caramunich 2 or 3.

that 1L of candi will cost like $30!

To answer your Q before, I added the dark shards in the boil - near the end

Ha I just like ******* around with different ingredients to see what happens.

 

[FKASC]

Ha I just like ******* around with different ingredients to see what happens.

Yeah same here. I would say go for it with your recipe. At least you'll be able to get an idea of what the candi syrup adds to the beer rather than wondering if it was the Special B or another dark caramel malt.

 

[Doashuey]

Not sure what sort of Belgian you are going for but assuming a standard 23 L batch that is looking in the dubel/triple range.
It is important to have a lot of yeast for these big beers. I would be looking at stepping a 1L starter into a 3L starter. so do yuor 1L starter for a few days then you can add 2L of higher OG wort (use about 120g/L DME) to the starter to get the cell count up if you have room in your flask.

Or...
do your normal 1L starter but instead of adding candi syrup to the boil, you can add it in smaller doses into the fermenter to feed the yeast. This is the traditional way. So say you have a OG of 1.060, your 1L starter wont be much of an underpitch and by day 2 you should have much higher yeast numbers, add half your CS and then let it go nuts for a few days and add the other half. It will keep your yeast in full metabolic phase and should give you a good clean ferment and full attenuation in a big beer.

 

[Bender_]

Not sure what sort of Belgian you are going for but assuming a standard 23 L batch that is looking in the dubel/triple range.
It is important to have a lot of yeast for these big beers. I would be looking at stepping a 1L starter into a 3L starter. so do yuor 1L starter for a few days then you can add 2L of higher OG wort (use about 120g/L DME) to the starter to get the cell count up if you have room in your flask.

Or...
do your normal 1L starter but instead of adding candi syrup to the boil, you can add it in smaller doses into the fermenter to feed the yeast. This is the traditional way. So say you have a OG of 1.060, your 1L starter wont be much of an underpitch and by day 2 you should have much higher yeast numbers, add half your CS and then let it go nuts for a few days and add the other half. It will keep your yeast in full metabolic phase and should give you a good clean ferment and full attenuation in a big beer.

The latter is definitely a very interesting concept that I hadn't considered. I'm guessing there's little to no worry in not boiling the candi regarding some sort of infection?

Both procedures worth considering regardless.

 

[Doashuey]

The latter is definitely a very interesting concept that I hadn't considered. I'm guessing there's little to no worry in not boiling the candi regarding some sort of infection?

Both procedures worth considering regardless.

Nope, as mentioned, its how the Belgians do it. They know a thing or 2 about beer.

 

[FKASC]

Yeah that’s a pretty good idea ^

 

[Here2tellyouwhy]

Hahahah oops

 

[DanWCE]

Hahahah oops

View attachment 992972

That Nail Pale is home brewing research so that's a freebie if anyone questions your spending! I think you have to scan the code with a QR scanner or something to see which hop they used in it. They're essentially doing small batches with one hop per run to see which is the most popular and then that'll form part of the recipe for their eventual beer.

 

[Bender_]

Bottled up the saison yesterday for 53 stubbies. Smells magnificent, taste is promising but I always struggle to tell when it's flat and still requires a bit of conditioning. Gelatin didn't do a great deal - though considering the wheat and whole fruit I guess that's to be expected!

 

[Doashuey]

Bottled up the saison yesterday for 53 stubbies. Smells magnificent, taste is promising but I always struggle to tell when it's flat and still requires a bit of conditioning. Gelatin didn't do a great deal - though considering the wheat and whole fruit I guess that's to be expected!

Yeah it you want to clear up something with a lot of fruit you need to put in the enzyme that will break down pectin- pectinase.

 

[FKASC]

Time will clear pectin haze up eventually. Like 3-6 months in the bottle. Depends if you want to wait that long though! Bit of cloud never went astray in a saison.

 

[Bender_]

Time will clear pectin haze up eventually. Like 3-6 months in the bottle. Depends if you want to wait that long though! Bit of cloud never went astray in a saison.

Yeah I'm okay with it, just didn't think about it before the gelatin addition then remembered when bottling it!

 

[FKASC]

Yeah I'm okay with it, just didn't think about it before the gelatin addition then remembered when bottling it!

Actually on the example of it clearing up that I’m thinking of I may have added some pectinase before I aged it, hence why it probably cleared up. It was such a long ageing period though that I couldn’t say what caused it to clarify exactly.

Hazy pale time tomorrow. Week off work. Time to brew.

going to be my first hazy pale (~5.5%) attempt. Definitely not NEIPA territory but keen to see if i can make a super juicy version of a standard pale that isn’t trying to be milky/sweet/creamy