Contracted Ben King [out of contract 2020]

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Bulldog15

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Not a fan of overseas teams.....
you would think wrong,he definitely wants to play with his twin brother,the whole family craves that....
Of course you would say that being a saints person, but as somebody else posted, they want to be both in melbourne but in different clubs.
 

Tayl0r

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The AFL needs to do more to protect The Suns from tinpot clubs who are too lazy or unable to draft and develop a decent KPP like King..
Clubs who have had a pick in the top six this decade (the point required to get a player like King):
2018 - Carton, Gold Coast x 3, Port Adelaide
2017 - Brisbane, Fremantle x 2, Carlton, North, Collingwood
2016 - Essendon, GWS 2, Brisbane, Gold Coast, Carlton
2015 - Carlton, Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne, Essendon x2
2014 - Carlton, Melbourne x 2, GWS x 2, Collingwood
2013 - GWS x 2, St Kilda, Bulldogs, Gold Coast, Collingwood
2012 - GWS x 3, Melbourne, Bulldogs x 2
2011 - GWS x 5, Port Adelaide
2010 - Gold Coast x 3, West Coast, Brisbane, Richmond

No Adelaide, No Geelong, No Hawthorn. If I didn't go the extra year there isn't a West Coast or Richmond either. Those clubs might get flack for securing a gun player via free agency but that might be the only look in they get at them at all.
 

branedotorg

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Clubs who have had a pick in the top six this decade (the point required to get a player like King):
2018 - Carton, Gold Coast x 3, Port Adelaide
2017 - Brisbane, Fremantle x 2, Carlton, North, Collingwood
2016 - Essendon, GWS 2, Brisbane, Gold Coast, Carlton
2015 - Carlton, Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne, Essendon x2
2014 - Carlton, Melbourne x 2, GWS x 2, Collingwood
2013 - GWS x 2, St Kilda, Bulldogs, Gold Coast, Collingwood
2012 - GWS x 3, Melbourne, Bulldogs x 2
2011 - GWS x 5, Port Adelaide
2010 - Gold Coast x 3, West Coast, Brisbane, Richmond

No Adelaide, No Geelong, No Hawthorn. If I didn't go the extra year there isn't a West Coast or Richmond either. Those clubs might get flack for securing a gun player via free agency but that might be the only look in they get at them at all.
i think the risk (and the reason for the free agency flack) is the risk of becoming like european football / the VFL in the 80s. Big Clubs win and then attract players who want to win.

The draft is a measure to make success cyclical, those clubs have been good, that's why no top 6 picks.
 

Tayl0r

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i think the risk (and the reason for the free agency flack) is the risk of becoming like european football / the VFL in the 80s. Big Clubs win and then attract players who want to win.

The draft is a measure to make success cyclical, those clubs have been good, that's why no top 6 picks.
The draft is supposed to be the means that make success cyclical.

I was running through some current clubs benefiting from draft concessions and here are a few examples.

Tom Hawkins - father son - pick #41 after winning the best player in the U18s competition. That was the year that Joel Selwood was taking pick #7. The rules have changed since then regarding how father son picks enter the AFL but the benefit to Geelong for this remains, they probably don't get to use their #7 pick on Selwood with Hawkins attracting a bid inside the top five.

Roughead, Marc Murphy, Dale Thomas, Kreuzer, Alex Rance, Luke Shuey, Jack Darling are currently playing (for now) priority pick selections. I've only kept Dale Thomas up there because he was part of the flag winning 2010 Collingwood team (Deledio would be here too if he had won with Richmond before moving), the rest are with the club that secured them with that extra pick. I also don't include Hodge who was a priority pick but traded for.

That's a handy set of players and you can see why the AFL would be so hesitant to give out extra priority picks. When was the last flag won by a team that didn't have priority picks or father son concessions adding talent to their side at an advantage to them over other teams?

2018 - Eagles had Darling and Shuey
2017 - Richmond had Rance
2016 - Bulldogs had Liberatore (F/S pick #40) - I'm not including Wallis due to injury or Cordy because he was part of the new era of picks)
2015 - Hawthorn had Roughead
2014 - As above
2013 - As above
2012 - maybe, depending on how you see the cost of living allowance
2011 - Scarlett, Hawkins/Selwood handy in that
2010 - Collingwood had Dale Thomas
2009 - As above re Geelong
2008 - Hawthorn had Roughead and Ellis
2007 - Scarlett, Hawkins/Selwood, Ablett Jnr

The competition is so tight that having that extra top pick (as in before the second round) can get you over the line when the rest lines up.

We haven't had an uncompromised system for a long, long time and we will continue to have one for a long while yet.
 

branedotorg

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The draft is supposed to be the means that make success cyclical.

...

The competition is so tight that having that extra top pick (as in before the second round) can get you over the line when the rest lines up.

We haven't had an uncompromised system for a long, long time and we will continue to have one for a long while yet.
agree with all of that

Those clubs might get flack for securing a gun player via free agency but that might be the only look in they get at them at all.
it's more i've seen supporters of those clubs with a 'woe is me' attitude about a lack of decent draft pics, ignoring the reality that the system was designed for boom bust sequence, not a two-three speed economy and that the new measures help those on top, stay on top.
 

Tayl0r

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agree with all of that



it's more i've seen supporters of those clubs with a 'woe is me' attitude about a lack of decent draft pics, ignoring the reality that the system was designed for boom bust sequence, not a two-three speed economy and that the new measures help those on top, stay on top.
No doubt about it, the AFL has a system that was supposed to balance over 16 years but got impatient after a single season (end of first priority pick) and very impatient after two seasons with four wins (start of first priority pick).

The benefits of those can last over a decade and now that we have had a little while out of the era of automatic priority picks from winning the four games have we seen an improvement in rebuilding teams?

The competition changed the fixture plan in that same period so now we have sides playing more teams around their level, creating a circumstance more than ever where sides that play lower teams that extra game get advantage. The top sides play other top sides more, the middle sides play middle teams more, the bottom sides play bottom sides more - bringing everyone closer to the middle except where a club gets that extra shot at a weak team.

Brisbane got to beat Gold Coast by an average of 70 points twice, West Coast got to beat Fremantle by an average of 52 points twice - these advantages will lead to the top four being shaped.
 

Elmer_Judd

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The draft is supposed to be the means that make success cyclical.

I was running through some current clubs benefiting from draft concessions and here are a few examples.

Tom Hawkins - father son - pick #41 after winning the best player in the U18s competition. That was the year that Joel Selwood was taking pick #7. The rules have changed since then regarding how father son picks enter the AFL but the benefit to Geelong for this remains, they probably don't get to use their #7 pick on Selwood with Hawkins attracting a bid inside the top five.

Roughead, Marc Murphy, Dale Thomas, Kreuzer, Alex Rance, Luke Shuey, Jack Darling are currently playing (for now) priority pick selections. I've only kept Dale Thomas up there because he was part of the flag winning 2010 Collingwood team (Deledio would be here too if he had won with Richmond before moving), the rest are with the club that secured them with that extra pick. I also don't include Hodge who was a priority pick but traded for.

That's a handy set of players and you can see why the AFL would be so hesitant to give out extra priority picks. When was the last flag won by a team that didn't have priority picks or father son concessions adding talent to their side at an advantage to them over other teams?

2018 - Eagles had Darling and Shuey
2017 - Richmond had Rance
2016 - Bulldogs had Liberatore (F/S pick #40) - I'm not including Wallis due to injury or Cordy because he was part of the new era of picks)
2015 - Hawthorn had Roughead
2014 - As above
2013 - As above
2012 - maybe, depending on how you see the cost of living allowance
2011 - Scarlett, Hawkins/Selwood handy in that
2010 - Collingwood had Dale Thomas
2009 - As above re Geelong
2008 - Hawthorn had Roughead and Ellis
2007 - Scarlett, Hawkins/Selwood, Ablett Jnr

The competition is so tight that having that extra top pick (as in before the second round) can get you over the line when the rest lines up.

We haven't had an uncompromised system for a long, long time and we will continue to have one for a long while yet.
I think Gold Coast are a unique case though, been an expansion club in arguably the hardest region in the country to run a successful sporting team.

If you add to the fact that there is no real crap team this year in dire need of an early draft pick (Melbourne just having an unusually poor season) and I think the AFL will give the Suns a PP, especially with how Brisbane (and now most likely Carlton) are flourishing with so much young talent/early picks in the system.

This is one season the AFL can honestly give a team a Priority Pick without seemingly punish a long time battling team (The Swans really can't complain, given how they got a top 5 pick in Blakey last year via some kind of academy rule)
 

Tayl0r

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I think Gold Coast are a unique case though, been an expansion club in arguably the hardest region in the country to run a successful sporting team.

If you add to the fact that there is no real crap team this year in dire need of an early draft pick (Melbourne just having an unusually poor season) and I think the AFL will give the Suns a PP, especially with how Brisbane (and now most likely Carlton) are flourishing with so much young talent/early picks in the system.

This is one season the AFL can honestly give a team a Priority Pick without seemingly punish a long time battling team (The Swans really can't complain, given how they got a top 5 pick in Blakey last year via some kind of academy rule)
I think my little list shows that giving teams priority picks really helps them when they pull it together, but it takes time, then the impact lingers in the system for a long time after.

I'd argue that Gold Coast have enough talent on their list currently, what they are lacking is development time. Since the AFL can't inject 50 extra games into the young players and Gold Coast would prefer to play the younger players over their mature bodies, see Barlow/Lyons I think it's just a waiting game.

They've started their rebuild a couple of years ago and an extra top pick this year won't make them more competitive but it certainly will make them better in four to five years when their other young players would already have made them better.

Look at the list of players in just the flag teams who are still on the books of the clubs that drafted them with their extra priority picks. Does West Coast win the flag without Darling or Shuey? Does Richmond play as well without Rance? None of those players made their teams better in the first couple of years but the competition is effectively paying the price of them now.

Continuing this is not a positive to me. Gold Coast could do with having a marquee player outside the cap, or something to that effect that allows them to buy existing mature talent, or an advantage to retain talent. That will actually make them competitive.
 

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stfan

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I think my little list shows that giving teams priority picks really helps them when they pull it together, but it takes time, then the impact lingers in the system for a long time after.

I'd argue that Gold Coast have enough talent on their list currently, what they are lacking is development time. Since the AFL can't inject 50 extra games into the young players and Gold Coast would prefer to play the younger players over their mature bodies, see Barlow/Lyons I think it's just a waiting game.

They've started their rebuild a couple of years ago and an extra top pick this year won't make them more competitive but it certainly will make them better in four to five years when their other young players would already have made them better.

Look at the list of players in just the flag teams who are still on the books of the clubs that drafted them with their extra priority picks. Does West Coast win the flag without Darling or Shuey? Does Richmond play as well without Rance? None of those players made their teams better in the first couple of years but the competition is effectively paying the price of them now.

Continuing this is not a positive to me. Gold Coast could do with having a marquee player outside the cap, or something to that effect that allows them to buy existing mature talent, or an advantage to retain talent. That will actually make them competitive.

Exactly. Throwing more priority picks at the Suns will do nothing. It will just be more young players leaving a in a few years time.There has been ample talent through the doors of the club already.

Getting good youth is not the problem. The Suns need ways of retaining players, and in attracting some good mature talent.
 

Dede

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Exactly. Throwing more priority picks at the Suns will do nothing. It will just be more young players leaving a in a few years time.There has been ample talent through the doors of the club already.

Getting good youth is not the problem. The Suns need ways of retaining players, and in attracting some good mature talent.
Not true.. the bottom 6 at the suns are deadset non afl standard players. Heron and co are terrible they need depth asap!

Gws keep losing 2 players each year but hit the draft hard..

Have no question king signs on.
 

briztoon

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I could be wrong but I’m pretty shore schache did extend his contract during his first contract he left during his extension
You’re wrong my friend. Schache left at the end of his second season, about 4 months after he signed said contract extension.
 

briztoon

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So according to Caro Ben King is wanting out of GC asap.
If they do get a priority pick and have picks 1 and 2, would Suns accept pick 3 from the dees for King?

Suns then go into the draft with Picks 1,2 and 3.
If there was no option of keeping him to his contract, then yes, pick 3 gets it done.

BUT....

That’s just continuing the cycle and not helping the Suns grow at all.

All their recent draftees really need to give them 3 more years to see if the team can improve.

The Suns board has already started their 2020 offseason thread, and their expectations are that they’ll finish last again next season. Because they are still too young, will be playing a lot of kids again, lack enough quality mature players, and have next to no depth on their list.
 

Northernsoul74

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dees and dogs list managers aren't wasting there time,they know where ben wants to and will end up
What if Caro is right and he wants out now? How do Saints do it as they’re deep into Hill? He was openly very keen to slide to the Dogs on draft night. Much more likely he stays for one more year anyway.
 

stfan

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Not true.. the bottom 6 at the suns are deadset non afl standard players. Heron and co are terrible they need depth asap!

Gws keep losing 2 players each year but hit the draft hard..

Have no question king signs on.
.

What I am saying that is they do not have the depth as they keep losing players. Priority picks will not fix that depth as they will keep leaving.

Depth as well as quality will only be fixed if they and the AFL find ways to keep players.
 

Dogsman16

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Unless St Kilda are thinking of moving on some key forwards then the list manager should be removed immediately if they are targeting ben king.

I get the sentiment getting both of the twins, but St Kilda seem absolutely stacked in key positions across the park. Bruce, M.King, Membrey, McCartin (obviously question marks on him), Marshall (expected to play more forward time) are already too many highly rated players to all play in the same forward line. Carlisle and Battle are a decent starting point as key defenders and st kilda probably dont need to spend too much if they want to play a 3rd tall defender.

Huge question marks on the longevity and future of Steven and Hannerbury. It's the midfield that should be priority A, B and C.

Brad Hill is a good start but it needs to be more than that. Another top line inside ball winner needs to be found.

Without a second rounder already and their first pick seemingly involved in any brad hill trade they wont have the trade assets nor the need to make a move on Ben King.

Collingwood is probably the victorian club in most dire need for a key forward and at the moment they probably dont have the cap space.

Melbourne, WB, Geelong, I can see being the ones who might have the room and assets (geelong with the kelly trade), to make a move if he wants out now.
 

bird_man

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Unless St Kilda are thinking of moving on some key forwards then the list manager should be removed immediately if they are targeting ben king.

I get the sentiment getting both of the twins, but St Kilda seem absolutely stacked in key positions across the park. Bruce, M.King, Membrey, McCartin (obviously question marks on him), Marshall (expected to play more forward time) are already too many highly rated players to all play in the same forward line. Carlisle and Battle are a decent starting point as key defenders and st kilda probably dont need to spend too much if they want to play a 3rd tall defender.

Huge question marks on the longevity and future of Steven and Hannerbury. It's the midfield that should be priority A, B and C.

Brad Hill is a good start but it needs to be more than that. Another top line inside ball winner needs to be found.

Without a second rounder already and their first pick seemingly involved in any brad hill trade they wont have the trade assets nor the need to make a move on Ben King.

Collingwood is probably the victorian club in most dire need for a key forward and at the moment they probably dont have the cap space.

Melbourne, WB, Geelong, I can see being the ones who might have the room and assets (geelong with the kelly trade), to make a move if he wants out now.
I'd say if we were chasing him it would be to play at CHB as he did a junior
 
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