Judd won two brownlows like 5 or 6 years apart....... kinda cuts through the "slightly downhill" idea
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Besides GAblett...
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Art Vandelay_
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- Oct 28, 2012
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This.
It's why threads like this and 'overrated' and 'underrated' etc. are rather meh!
Most are affected by their biases. I've seen a few of my clubs players in this thread have their achievements downplayed but it's not worth the argument.
That said I don't think Selwood, Scarlett or even Enright will be considered vfl/afl top 10 of all time. It is ridiculously hard to be apart of that group.
Art Vandelay_
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lol, as if he'll see that out. It was a silly contract at the time and is looking even more so now.
Art Vandelay_
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Well said Sttew.
Top 10 AFL. No he is not. Ablett Sr is and he's nowhere near as good as senior was.
Some of the dribble posted about Scarlett though deserves defending.
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- Jun 22, 2008
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Flower might pop up rarely, Mew only from Hawthorn supporters.
From Mew's era, of which I saw all, there are plenty of players still talked about, especially from the great Hawthorn sides. For younger people, outside of a Hawthorn supporter, I'd doubt anyone would even know who Mew was, unless they saw him on Open Mike and wondered who the hell he was.
In no particular order, the best I've seen since I started to watch in the mid 70s, apologies to non-Victorian players from that era, would be :
Carey
Ablett
Ablett
Lockett
Matthews
Dunstall
Williams
Hudson
They're the locks for me then there's a massive log jam behind them.
The standout for me from that lot would be Snr. in his pre permanent full forward days when he was playing centre line / half forward line.
- Jun 22, 2008
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Not sure how old you are, but there was a bloke running around for North in the 70s and 80s named David Dench. He was the reason I ended up choosing to play as a defender and the player I used to judge all other fullbacks against that I'd seen.
Now I judge them against Scarlo. The hatred for him is strong and it clouds people's abjectivity. Lake was probably as good for 2 or 3 seasons but didn't have the longevity.
Geelong's rebuild and then ultimate success was built from the ground up starting with Scarlett and Harley as the key planks in defence. He may not have been as big as Lake, but he was big enough and his ability to read the play, intercept mark, out maneouvre and run off and hit targets was better than any other full back I've seen in 40 years of watching the VFL / AFL. His ability to work the angles whether faced with a tall or a small in a contest was extraordinary.
Dench, Moore, Southby, Langford, Silvagni, MacIntosh, Glass, Rutten, Lake, imo, as an all round package, he was better than all of them.
- Jun 22, 2008
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Generally the great teams have the best defence. Hawthorn of the 80s, Geelong 2007-2011, current Hawthorn once they got Lake in there to shore things up.
If you are talking about taking them at their absolute prime to win a flag, I loved Voss as a player and leader so would pick him, would take Scarlett next because premierships are built on defence, Pav would be last cab off the rank from those three.
- Jun 22, 2008
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Peter Moore and Jim Stynes both won Brownlows (2 in Moore's case) as running mobile ruckmen in the 70s/80s/90s. In Moore's case he was also good enough to play as season as a key forward at Collingwood and kick 76 goals in a season.
- Jun 22, 2008
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That doesn't make sense to me, apart from Enright, you've named midfielders and forwards, how does that make Scarlett seem better? Scarlett was there before all of them and being selected as AA fullback when they were still all babies in a footy sense.
- Jun 22, 2008
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Played 3rd tall later in his career once Lonergan had developed into the dour, lock down defender to play on the big forwards, allowing Scarlo's skills and flair be put to better use. Had Harley/Egan/Taylor to cover chb. He was already a 5 time AA before he switched to that role.
It's like saying that Buckley and Craig Bradley were no good because they were rarely under the bottom of packs winning their own ball. Why would you want them to? You had others to do that, their strengths were put to better use being outside, using their pace and kicking skills for the betterment of their respective sides.
Name me another key backman that would have a) had the imagination and ability to execute the toe poke to Jnr in the '09 gf and b) actually read the game well enough to even be in that position in the first place.
We had a player in '08 who had kicked 113 goals for the season essentially used as a decoy for the gf to take Scarlett's influence out of the game. Worked a treat too, ****ing little genius is Clarkson.
For starters you are totally biased about the very recent past and the present to have so many players names thrown around of recent times in all ALL TIME top ten.
Hyperbole in the extreme.
Of those names there are only a few that could be even such a discussion for all time top ten.
Leigh Matthews, Wayne Carey and Gary Ablett senior certainly in the discussion and almost certainly in top ten. Dunstall, Voss, Silvagni and Judd and Hird have had great careers but they certainly fall short of all time discussion.
Greg Williams maybe I can buy into as possibly greatest centre ever but whether that gets him in top ten is questionable.
Fyfe and Buddy not even close. Sorry. Crazy premature talk.
One player you forgotten that should be obvious is Tony Lockett.
He is the best pure full forward I seen. Peter Hudson whom was a great full forward himself that has seen a lot more football than any of us said he was the best and predicted it early on. I can buy into Lockett, Wayne Carey, Gary Ablett the first and Matthews done enough and talked about enough by past greats to be in top ten of all time.
After that it is hard to say with certainty any in my time is worthy. Haydn Bunton, Dick Reynolds, Bob Pratt are some guys from long ago spoken so highly of from people no longer with us that hard to imagine they are anything from top ten. Laurie Nash is spoken of in their company too.
I for one in all my time of watching find it hard to imagine I see a better pure defender than Bruce Doull or better wingman than Robert Flower or more versatile skilled player than Alex Jesaulenko that played pure forward, centre and back in his career. I'd have those guys in the discussion. This does not mean top ten of all time for certain but at least in the discussion. Hird, Darrel Baldock, Barry Cable, Bob Skilton, Malcolm Blight, Greg Williams, Gary Wilson, Judd and Voss probably worthy of discussion too.
If there is a ruck worthy of being top ten of all time then the discussion is Polly Farmer , John Nicholls, Simon Madden and Dean Cox.
I doubt any ruckman is actually good enough to be considered top ten of all time. Madden probably best ruck I seen but still that would not get him in top 30 imho. In the best team as a ruck, yes, but not best players. Who knows, maybe Polly Farmer was? Way before our time.
What I do know for sure , is you have too many present players and recent players in there to take it seriously in context you posed the question. Gary Ablett junior for mine is just short of Judd, Voss, Williams category of effect on a game but his skill is a hallmark of his great Dad.
I feel comfortable naming Hayden Bunton, Dick Reynolds, Bob Pratt, Leigh Matthews, Alex Jesaulenko, Robert Flower, Greg Williams, Tony Lockett, Gary Ablett the first, Wayne Carey and Laurie Nash as a possible top ten given the combination of what I seen with my own eyes and read or heard of opinions of football players themselves of distant eras. Whether it is top ten of all time , none of us really know.
- Oct 14, 2011
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So Tony Lockett is an obvious top ten choice but Dunstall isn't close right........
That's right. Dunstall might squeeze into top 50 of all time but he is not the same out and out gun that Lockett was. Great player all the same, but we are talking all time here. I can understand your Hawk eyes viewing it differently.
Having thought a bit more about it and read up a bit more on Laurie Nash it seems he would be in an all time top ten. If I have to leave someone out like Robbie Flower or Greg Williams to fit Nash in, think Diesel has to make way.
Reading up on Nash, geez he was talented and confident bastard too. I think he was involved in shortest Test match ever. Australia bowled South Africa out twice below 50.
"Before proceeding to New Zealand, South Africa engaged in their concluding Test match with Australia and for the fifth time were defeated, Australia, although scoring only 153, winning in an innings with 72 runs to spare. For this game Australia brought in L. Nash, a Tasmanian fast bowler who jumped into prominence by taking seven wickets for fifty runs when the tourists played Tasmania. Short, but of powerful build, Nash made the ball rise in very awkward fashion, several of them getting head high. He and Ironmonger proved so effective on a pitch slightly on the soft side that in a little more than ninety minutes South Africa were dismissed for the sorry total of 36."
He also reckoned he could have finished off Bodyline in a few hours by short pitching bowling to the Poms. The Aussie captain did not want a bar of it though so never wanted Nash in his team.
From a book by Whale Roberts
"You meet some unbelievable characters in football and none was bigger than the great Laurie Nash. We were mates for years and spent a lot of time together, not only in the pub, but most Tuesdays, too, when we'd go fishing on Western Port Bay.
Each Monday night, I'd organise the booze and the sandwiches and nominate a pick up time. Laurie was one of those blokes who just had to be organised. If you said you were going to pick him up at 5.15 a.m. and were five minutes late, you were the biggest bastard of all time. He'd pay out on you all the way from South Melbourne to Hastings. "I told you to be on time you so-and-so," he'd be saying.
Laurie knew every nook and cranny of Western Port from all the times he'd been out with another football legend, Jack Dyer. He used to like to get into the naval channel - which was strictly off limits - and get the naval cutter to come out and investigate us.
"Ahoy there," the navy bloke would say through his loud hailer. "Don't you know you're fishing on naval water?"
Laurie loved that one. He'd "Ahoy" them back, introduce himself as "L.J. Nash the Greatest" and tell them if they didn't p*ss off fast he'd report the lot of them to their commanding officer, who just happened to be a mate of his!
Laurie was a scream on these trips.
As a younger man, there was nothing he couldn't do. He was the best cricketer and footballer of all time (you only had to ask him). He also claimed to be the best fisherman, tomato chutney maker, cook and cleaner.
I was fishing one morning with Laurie, Jack Dyer, Don 'Chipper' Turner and a bank manager mate of mine, Darryl Gavin, and to our growing frustration, nothing much was happening.
Laurie was down in the galley making multiple rounds of his world-famous pickle onion sandwiches. "Can't you pr*cks catch any bloody fish?" he yelled. Jack replied that Laurie shouldn't talk like that, especially in front of Darryl, whom he'd just met.
Laurie came up on deck, cursing and swearing, because his bad hip made it difficult for him to get around. "I'll show you so-and-so's how it's done," he said as he grabbed his rod and cast it.
No one had caught anything for an hour, yet within a minute the great L.J. had a bite and a nice sized whiting.
"By Christ is there nothing I can't do?" he said as he unhooked the fish."
Another famous thing he said
When asked who was the best footballer he had ever seen, Nash replied, " I look at him in the mirror every day".
Laurie Nash, Victoria v South Australia, 1934
Nash’s effort in kicking 18 goals against South Australia at the MCG after being moved from centre half-back to full-forward at quarter-time not a bad effort either. He claimed he would have kicked more if his teammates had kicked it to him.
"Before proceeding to New Zealand, South Africa engaged in their concluding Test match with Australia and for the fifth time were defeated, Australia, although scoring only 153, winning in an innings with 72 runs to spare. For this game Australia brought in L. Nash, a Tasmanian fast bowler who jumped into prominence by taking seven wickets for fifty runs when the tourists played Tasmania. Short, but of powerful build, Nash made the ball rise in very awkward fashion, several of them getting head high. He and Ironmonger proved so effective on a pitch slightly on the soft side that in a little more than ninety minutes South Africa were dismissed for the sorry total of 36."
He also reckoned he could have finished off Bodyline in a few hours by short pitching bowling to the Poms. The Aussie captain did not want a bar of it though so never wanted Nash in his team.
From a book by Whale Roberts
"You meet some unbelievable characters in football and none was bigger than the great Laurie Nash. We were mates for years and spent a lot of time together, not only in the pub, but most Tuesdays, too, when we'd go fishing on Western Port Bay.
Each Monday night, I'd organise the booze and the sandwiches and nominate a pick up time. Laurie was one of those blokes who just had to be organised. If you said you were going to pick him up at 5.15 a.m. and were five minutes late, you were the biggest bastard of all time. He'd pay out on you all the way from South Melbourne to Hastings. "I told you to be on time you so-and-so," he'd be saying.
Laurie knew every nook and cranny of Western Port from all the times he'd been out with another football legend, Jack Dyer. He used to like to get into the naval channel - which was strictly off limits - and get the naval cutter to come out and investigate us.
"Ahoy there," the navy bloke would say through his loud hailer. "Don't you know you're fishing on naval water?"
Laurie loved that one. He'd "Ahoy" them back, introduce himself as "L.J. Nash the Greatest" and tell them if they didn't p*ss off fast he'd report the lot of them to their commanding officer, who just happened to be a mate of his!
Laurie was a scream on these trips.
As a younger man, there was nothing he couldn't do. He was the best cricketer and footballer of all time (you only had to ask him). He also claimed to be the best fisherman, tomato chutney maker, cook and cleaner.
I was fishing one morning with Laurie, Jack Dyer, Don 'Chipper' Turner and a bank manager mate of mine, Darryl Gavin, and to our growing frustration, nothing much was happening.
Laurie was down in the galley making multiple rounds of his world-famous pickle onion sandwiches. "Can't you pr*cks catch any bloody fish?" he yelled. Jack replied that Laurie shouldn't talk like that, especially in front of Darryl, whom he'd just met.
Laurie came up on deck, cursing and swearing, because his bad hip made it difficult for him to get around. "I'll show you so-and-so's how it's done," he said as he grabbed his rod and cast it.
No one had caught anything for an hour, yet within a minute the great L.J. had a bite and a nice sized whiting.
"By Christ is there nothing I can't do?" he said as he unhooked the fish."
Another famous thing he said
When asked who was the best footballer he had ever seen, Nash replied, " I look at him in the mirror every day".
Laurie Nash, Victoria v South Australia, 1934
Nash’s effort in kicking 18 goals against South Australia at the MCG after being moved from centre half-back to full-forward at quarter-time not a bad effort either. He claimed he would have kicked more if his teammates had kicked it to him.
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Why? Because he was a full back? Reality is what reality is. I watched all of them for years as a Geelong supporter. Scarlett had freaky skills. It's easy to forget how good he was in the air, on the ground and even in the wet. Explain which of those other Geelong players was more skillful and why. Or, if you like, tell me which would win a one on one contest against Scarlett.
Chris Mew is top 10 best ever for rhyming slang though.
Coincidentally, i had a big night earlier in week and was close to having a Chris Mew
Coincidentally, i had a big night earlier in week and was close to having a Chris Mew
Totally agree Locket, Carey and Matthews are first up starters then there is the next Lot like Judd, Voss, Buckley, Ricciutto, Cousins, Akermanis, Harvey, Swann, Fyfe, Williams, GAJ, Wanganeen, Hird, Goodes, McLeod and co who you could pick 30 players to discuss. Then you have the next lot like Dunstall, Scarlett who mean a lot to their particular team but do not rate in the entire AFL.
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hawker513
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Dunstall from 87 - 96 booted season tallies of 94, 132, 138, 83, 145, 123, 101, 66, 102 your right when you look at it like that it doesn't really rate in the entire AFL
- Apr 20, 2006
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I know it's personal opinion but I'm shocked you left Ablett jr out. He had a run of about 7 years where he was the best player in the league. no other player in my memory has come close to that. He also had 8 straight years of getting over 20 Brownlow votes and picking up 5 MVP's I think he'll go down top 3 of all time.
I certainly would consider that hyperbole. I'd probably rate a couple of seasons he was best in league but 7 years is a massive stretch. Any number of Pendlbury, Judd, Swan, Rockliff, Goldstein have had seasons others would contend as better. Remember, that is just this generation. Not the small sample of recent memory. I'm sure guys like Ian Stewart, Malcolm Blight, Royce Hart, Kevin Bartlett, Ben Cousins, Ted Whitten and they like had multiple seasons in small period of time they may have been seen as best player in league. Gary Ablett jr is in good company not being in all time top ten like all those guys that were excellent players too. If you get fixated on one player it is easy to forget just how many really good players there has been in history.
You got to get perspective on this that the difference between say, the 10th best player of all time and 50th best player of all time is going to be quite small. We are splitting hairs and will all come down to opinion. Some will rate him higher than me like yourself and others I'm sure like me, that seen a few more decades of footy know, as good as he has been there have been many many great midfielders over time and he is just one of many that will be brought up in such discussions.
- Jun 22, 2008
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Let me guess ?
Your Hawks won their first premiership in that year.
lol, did you even need to ask.