Besides GAblett...

[footyfan1978]

Incredible lack of thought going on.
Amusing but still incredible.

 

[Davo23]

A lot of Hawthorn supporters rate Ayres extremly high, I liked him but Dermott was the ultimate big game player in my eyes

Dermie and Gary Ayres were the best big game players I've seen: I can't split them.
Always stepped up, the bigger the game, the better they were.

The fact they have 5 premierships each says it all.

 

[CyrilDaSquirrel]

Could have easily had 3 brownlows....checks.... has none. No mate. Finishing in the top 5 doesn't necessarily mean you 'could' have won it. It means you didnt. All the while his teams winning 16+ games each season.

Ablett's years have been a LOT better than Buddy's.
Ablett was AA for 8 years straight. Buddy only 5 of those years, arguably in an easier position to make given the lack of quality tall forwards around and them often picking 3 of them in one side.

As I said if Buddy has another good few years, then he can be talked about in that same breath. But at this stage he's no Ablett (Junior or Senior)

I'll say this, I think the gap between Ablett and Pendlebury/Judd/Mitchell/etc. is a lot smaller than the gap between Franklin and Roughead/Tippet/Walker/etc. Everyone gets so very excited when Ablett racks up 45 touches but we're in an era of possession football where it is near meaningless. In fact, sometimes it's a bad thing. I'd wager if he had more burst pace he'd be doing less 1-2 handballs and be breaking the line with footspeed like a young Judd did or a Rioli type does now. Not to say that Ablett isn't the best midfielder going around, I think he is. I just don't think the gap to his contemporaries is so great.

But Franklin is daylight ahead of the other key forwards of this era. He's kicked, what, 700 goals in the last 9 years? And in a dynamic style too, not camped in the goal square. He's been pushed up the ground as a CHF/flanker since 2009. Who is even close? Roughead and Nick Riewoldt probably the closest with 480-500 odd in that time? People don't go on about his stats the way they do about Ablett because they don't seem so enormous when stacked up against previous eras, but it is a lot harder to kick goals now.

Because of that, it is tougher for Franklin to make a claim to all time greatness with stats, but I have a suspicion that if you could somehow time travel the great forwards from different eras and play them all together, he would still stand out. If we could get a 25 year-old Leigh Matthews, train him up and stick him next to 25 year-old Ablett Jnr, they wouldn't look so different. But I think Franklin is something quite alien, and would look very different to a Coleman/Hudson/Lockett/Dunstall, and different again to any of the great CHFs like Carey. We've never seen that combination of size, agility and kicking skill. He's a strange beast. Kind of like Ablett Snr, he's a bit of a freak and you can't quite categorize him.

 

[DangerSloane]

I'll say this, I think the gap between Ablett and Pendlebury/Judd/Mitchell/etc. is a lot smaller than the gap between Franklin and Roughead/Tippet/Walker/etc. Everyone gets so very excited when Ablett racks up 45 touches but we're in an era of possession football where it is near meaningless. In fact, sometimes it's a bad thing. I'd wager if he had more burst pace he'd be doing less 1-2 handballs and be breaking the line with footspeed like a young Judd did or a Rioli type does now. Not to say that Ablett isn't the best midfielder going around, I think he is. I just don't think the gap to his contemporaries is so great.

But Franklin is daylight ahead of the other key forwards of this era. He's kicked, what, 700 goals in the last 9 years? And in a dynamic style too, not camped in the goal square. He's been pushed up the ground as a CHF/flanker since 2009. Who is even close? Roughead and Nick Riewoldt probably the closest with 480-500 odd in that time? People don't go on about his stats the way they do about Ablett because they don't seem so enormous when stacked up against previous eras, but it is a lot harder to kick goals now.

Because of that, it is tougher for Franklin to make a claim to all time greatness with stats, but I have a suspicion that if you could somehow time travel the great forwards from different eras and play them all together, he would still stand out. If we could get a 25 year-old Leigh Matthews, train him up and stick him next to 25 year-old Ablett Jnr, they wouldn't look so different. But I think Franklin is something quite alien, and would look very different to a Coleman/Hudson/Lockett/Dunstall, and different again to any of the great CHFs like Carey. We've never seen that combination of size, agility and kicking skill. He's a strange beast. Kind of like Ablett Snr, he's a bit of a freak and you can't quite categorize him.

You're forgetting the purely amazing things that Ablett does that nobody else can. Yes some of his disposals arent hugely effective, but most of them are.
Remember at Geelong he didnt just walk around racking up possessions, every single one was golden. Up until his injury the gap between him and the next best midfielders was astounding, and yes FAR bigger than the gap between Franklin and Roughead/Riewoldt etc. I think some people have already forgotten how good Ablett was at his best. Yes, Franklin is a freak of nature...does that mean we should give him more or less credit? His main skill is kicking goals. I would argue that Rough and Riewoldt and guys like that have more strings to their bow. They don't need to kick 60-70 goals to have a successful season. Buddy just isn't that type of all round player.

Your time travel argument is interesting. To me franklin is the Lebron of the AFL.
A guy who has built on his freakishly insane athleticism to make themselves a top of the line sports person.

How do you think Buddy would go having the back of his head caved in at every contest? I would say not so good.

Also you say its not an era for kicking goals, but most of buddys big goal seasons came when a lot of other people kicked a large amount. In 2008 when he kicked 113, Fev kicked 99 and there were 6 other players above 60 goals that year. He's also only got 52 goals in his last 34 games.

 

[beta_condition]

He's also only got 52 goals in his last 34 games.

What? He's kicked 114 goals in his last 34 games(10 more than Josh Kennedy), If you think Franklins only contribution is kicking goals youre sadly mistaken.

 

[DangerSloane]

What? He's kicked 114 goals in his last 34 games(10 more than Josh Kennedy), If you think Franklins only contribution is kicking goals youre sadly mistaken.

Ah shit I read the wrong end of his career.

His major contribution is kicking goals. If you think he does as much as say a Nick Riewoldt the rest of the time, you're sadly mistaken.

 

[beta_condition]

Ah shit I read the wrong end of his career.

His major contribution is kicking goals. If you think he does as much as say a Nick Riewoldt the rest of the time, you're sadly mistaken.

What does Nick do that Franklin doesn't, they have similar goal assist and disposal counts(Franklin averages more contested btw), Franklin averages more clearances and twice the amount of tackles.

 

[marty36]

What does Nick do that Franklin doesn't, they have similar goal assist and disposal counts(Franklin averages more contested btw), Franklin averages more clearances and twice the amount of tackles.

Franklin is the best KPF in the league followed by Walker, Roughead, Reiwoldt, Kennedy , Hawkins then Schulz

 

[nineteen eighty]

This doesn't make sense. So once Gary adds one specific thing to his game he is comparable, but until then he is covered by Matthews in every other aspect? Surely he is only covered in this one area which is why you have identified it.

I was loose with my words Dona. Yes you are right.

 

[nineteen eighty]

GAS single handedly won games. GAJ does not.

GAS with 20 possessions was twice as damaging as GAJ with 40 possessions.

And it is ridiculous that people mention Matthews and GAJ in the same sentence.

We're both aligned re Matthews and GAJ. Matthews is the greatest of all time IMO.

GAS was a freak. I just wish he had his sons consistency. He could have been the greatest of all time if he applied himself.

 

[DangerSloane]

What does Nick do that Franklin doesn't, they have similar goal assist and disposal counts(Franklin averages more contested btw), Franklin averages more clearances and twice the amount of tackles.

Works harder. His heat map would find him getting the ball further up the ground than Buddy (especially in his earlier days).

Takes contested marks well, which buddy certainly doesn't do well.

Buddy is a great player, but far from complete.

 

[DangerSloane]

GAS single handedly won games. GAJ does not.

GAS with 20 possessions was twice as damaging as GAJ with 40 possessions.

And it is ridiculous that people mention Matthews and GAJ in the same sentence.

If GAJ didnt win games the Gold Coast would still be looking for their first few wins.

That is complete and utter garbage.

Possibly the dumbest comment ever on BF.
Gary Ablett Jr doesnt win games lolllllllllllllllllllll

 

[HairyO]

We're both aligned re Matthews and GAJ. Matthews is the greatest of all time IMO.

GAS was a freak. I just wish he had his sons consistency. He could have been the greatest of all time if he applied himself.

He was kicked out of Hawthorn because he said he didnt feel like turning up to training.

Similar to Buddy leaving, both clubs ended up stronger because of it.

If GAJ didnt win games the Gold Coast would still be looking for their first few wins.

That is complete and utter garbage.

Possibly the dumbest comment ever on BF.
Gary Ablett Jr doesnt win games lolllllllllllllllllllll

Is that like saying GWS's big marquis player in Tom Scully is the reason why they are winning so many games?

In 2011 GCS lost every game where GAJ had over 30 possessions, but won all 3 when he had under 30.

In 2012 GCS lost every game bar one where GAJ had over 30 possessions, and won 2 of 3 when he had under 30.

In 2013 it was a much more even mix, but GCS managed a win when GAJ had 19 possessions. Also managed a loss when he had 37 possessions.

In 2014 was another even year but GCS won the game where GAJ had 19 possessions and was injured.

2015 doesnt really count for much given he hardly played. But the club still managed 3 wins and a draw without him.

Overall I'd say that it doesnt much matter whether he plays or not. Except for the end of 2014 but the entire club was falling apart at that time.

 

[beta_condition]

Works harder. His heat map would find him getting the ball further up the ground than Buddy (especially in his earlier days).

Takes contested marks well, which buddy certainly doesn't do well.

Buddy is a great player, but far from complete.

Franklin shoulder and thumb prevent him for being a better contested mark (note his 2008 season pre injury) but yes he does lack ability to be a good contested marker, i'd like a statistic on that rather than " i think so". This wasn't about him being perfect in every asset it's about him being more than just a player that kicks goals which he certainly is.

 

[DangerSloane]

He was kicked out of Hawthorn because he said he didnt feel like turning up to training.

Similar to Buddy leaving, both clubs ended up stronger because of it.



Is that like saying GWS's big marquis player in Tom Scully is the reason why they are winning so many games?

In 2011 GCS lost every game where GAJ had over 30 possessions, but won all 3 when he had under 30.

In 2012 GCS lost every game bar one where GAJ had over 30 possessions, and won 2 of 3 when he had under 30.

In 2013 it was a much more even mix, but GCS managed a win when GAJ had 19 possessions. Also managed a loss when he had 37 possessions.

In 2014 was another even year but GCS won the game where GAJ had 19 possessions and was injured.

2015 doesnt really count for much given he hardly played. But the club still managed 3 wins and a draw without him.

Overall I'd say that it doesnt much matter whether he plays or not. Except for the end of 2014 but the entire club was falling apart at that time.

But youre assuming he needs 30 touches to win a game.
GAJ can have 15 and win a game.

Your whole premise is utter bullshit.

One of those "ill use supercoach scores to back up why stefan martin is a better ruckman than nic natnui" type operator.

 

[LoungeLizard]

I think with GAJ you need to look at where he ranks in the time he played, to me he is clearly #1, there are many great players from his era, so IMO he deserves to be in the top 10 of all time convo.

 

[Bloods]

Can't judge all time. Impossible. Everyone has their own view so people may well have argued that some of the greats of years gone by were overrated.

Ablett is the only current player in the best 10 I've seen. Buddy is close.

 

[HairyO]

But youre assuming he needs 30 touches to win a game.
GAJ can have 15 and win a game.

Your whole premise is utter bullsht.

One of those "ill use supercoach scores to back up why stefan martin is a better ruckman than nic natnui" type operator.

Yet when he gets 45 touches and they lose... ?

His efficiency is terrible. If he is only getting 15 touches he has done absolutely nothing.

 

[Drewie11]

He was kicked out of Hawthorn because he said he didnt feel like turning up to training.

Similar to Buddy leaving, both clubs ended up stronger because of it.



Is that like saying GWS's big marquis player in Tom Scully is the reason why they are winning so many games?

In 2011 GCS lost every game where GAJ had over 30 possessions, but won all 3 when he had under 30.

In 2012 GCS lost every game bar one where GAJ had over 30 possessions, and won 2 of 3 when he had under 30.

In 2013 it was a much more even mix, but GCS managed a win when GAJ had 19 possessions. Also managed a loss when he had 37 possessions.

In 2014 was another even year but GCS won the game where GAJ had 19 possessions and was injured.

2015 doesnt really count for much given he hardly played. But the club still managed 3 wins and a draw without him.

Overall I'd say that it doesnt much matter whether he plays or not. Except for the end of 2014 but the entire club was falling apart at that time.

Gold coast only started in 2011 so you really can't use the 2011 and 2012 seasons considering the rest of the team were pretty much 18 and 19 year olds

 

[LoungeLizard]

Yet when he gets 45 touches and they lose... ?

His efficiency is terrible. If he is only getting 15 touches he has done absolutely nothing.

To use this argument you would need to go back and look at stats on every player considered top 10.
All player do not have 100% de

 

[DangerSloane]

Yet when he gets 45 touches and they lose... ?

His efficiency is terrible. If he is only getting 15 touches he has done absolutely nothing.

Man you are just too stupid to even bother trying to talk to.

The number of touches is totally pointless to look at.
It means NOTHING without context.

 

[DangerSloane]

GAJ doesnt win games.... BAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAHAHAHHAHAH

I'm so glad you said that, its made my day.

Neither does Sam Mitchell or Luke Hodge then, sorry.

 

[docko911]

Can this top 10 be adjusted for clubs that were woeful... As in can I sneak Richo in! Haha

 

[HairyO]

To use this argument you would need to go back and look at stats on every player considered top 10.
All player do not have 100% de

The top players tend to have at least 50% though...

Gold coast only started in 2011 so you really can't use the 2011 and 2012 seasons considering the rest of the team were pretty much 18 and 19 year olds

And you cant use 2014 or 2015 because he was injured.

So that only leaves 2013? Which was a very mixed bag year.

Which means he has contributed very little at all since leaving Geelong 5 years ago.

 

[JackOutback]

It's almost impossible to judge the best 100 given most of us haven't seen players pre-1970 and certainly 1960. But given you would expect 10 or so to come from each decade (some decades more than others, some less), it would be interesting to read who people think would be in the frame from 2000-2010 and also 2010 to now. Might also be interesting to see who people think might be in the discussion from their clubs over the last 20 or 30 years, bearing in mind, it should only be a handful, given the length of time we are talking about.

For the Eagles, I think only Judd (shared with Carlton), Cousins, Cox, Jakovich and Matera would be in the frame over 30 years.

For post 2000, Judd, Cousins, Cox, Voss, Black, Buckley, Ablett, Hodge, Franklin, Goodes would surely be the frontrunners...bloody hell, that's 10 already and there would be plenty I'm missing.