Best 22 for the start of 2017?

[Punts]

No 3 rucks for the love of god horse

Far far to slow

 

[connolly]

Those two small defences in particular would rebound away from our forward line all day without much pressure though. That's my issue. Johanissen, Murphy, Wood, Boyd, Shaw, Williams, Wilson would revel.

They cant rebound if they are out marked. We scored on average less than 12 goals against them in the big games last season. Tall forwards out marking smaller defenders win games. Its the job of the small forwards to defend against the rebound. Why do u assume there would be less pressure with a taller forward line? It depends what happens at the packs. The tactic that we have used of locking the ball into the forward line and kicking goals off forward stoppages does not win GF's. I guess it might be a good idea to play a 204 cm full forward who can hold a mark. Buddy does not take pack marks as great as he is. Reid will be used further up the ground as a linking half forward. Tippet is a ruckman these days and you cant kick winning scores with resting ruckmen. Buddy is teamed by two and three defenders. Cameron playing deep pulls the third defender away from Buddy. Many good reasons to CONSIDER Cameron as a full forward. It is obvious he will not be played as third ruckman.

 

[connolly]

No 3 rucks for the love of god horse

Far far to slow

No one is suggesting that Cameron would be a third ruckman. He would be a 204 cm full forward . Longmire is from the Pagan school. They love tall forward lines that can out mark defenders.

 

[BruceFromBalnarring]

No one is suggesting that Cameron would be a third ruckman. He would be a 204 cm full forward . Longmire is from the Pagan school. They love tall forward lines that can out mark defenders.

I think it might work on occasion. Not always. But I'd have Tippett as the stay at home forward and Cameron as the 2nd ruck.

Bloody Tippett. He's taken a few really strong contested marks this JLT series. A couple of those on Grand Final Day could really have changed the dynamic.

 

[Punts]

They cant rebound if they are out marked. We scored on average less than 12 goals against them in the big games last season. Tall forwards out marking smaller defenders win games. Its the job of the small forwards to defend against the rebound. Why do u assume there would be less pressure with a taller forward line? It depends what happens at the packs. The tactic that we have used of locking the ball into the forward line and kicking goals off forward stoppages does not win GF's. I guess it might be a good idea to play a 204 cm full forward who can hold a mark. Buddy does not take pack marks as great as he is. Reid will be used further up the ground as a linking half forward. Tippet is a ruckman these days and you cant kick winning scores with resting ruckmen. Buddy is teamed by two and three defenders. Cameron playing deep pulls the third defender away from Buddy. Many good reasons to CONSIDER Cameron as a full forward. It is obvious he will not be played as third ruckman.

WB say otherwise

They played a pretty small forward line and won the flag

 

[BruceFromBalnarring]

WB say otherwise

They played a pretty small forward line and won the flag

So did we in 2012. But the mix is different now, especially with so many smalls being out retired and injured.

 

[The Gong]

It's not going to work against all teams but Tippett deep forward for me has more value if we can set up a decent ruck rotation with Cameron and Naismith. Buddy has a license to roam and create. Reid holds down CHF and do what he does best which is clunk marks and turn and deliver deep. Jack moves to a more dedicated small forward role and knows how to pressure the ball if it spills and will work well in tandem with Papley.

I really liked Adelaide's forward setup last year and I think we could put together something similar though not with the freakish talent of Betts obviously.

Sure Tippett has been great in the ruck but I've really wanted to see him parked at full forward on a more regular basis. One out he's going to be really good on the contested grab and if we get more goals out of him on a regular basis I think his paycheck won't feel as unwarranted.

 

[caesar88]

I don't think our problem has been too many talls or pace. It's that the talls we have haven't worked. When our mids aren't kicking and hoping, they're trying to send it deep to Buddy who just doesn't have the capacity to play as a marking full forward and isn't as effective deep inside 50 as he is around the arc. They'll aim for Tippett, who is a gun, but I think his lead-up skills are seriously poor. I've watched too many Swans games where he just allows himself to be blanketed by his opponent rather than even attempt to find space. And then he gets himself outnumbered which is why he struggles to consistently produce the strong contested marks he once could. Reid we haven't even been able to get on the park but when he is he is as strong as a pomeranian. Our last few rucks (Pyke, Derickx) didn't use their height as an advantage at full forward, they were regularly beaten in marking contests apart from 2012 when Pyke was great in that regard. And the worst part is that while all our talls have been dysfunctional in their own regards inside 50, we've never had a consistent group of smalls who could clean up with the loose balls, making us extremely susceptable (is that a word?) to opposition rebounds. For a long time we only had McGlynn and Rohan, who coincidentally were our two most injury-prone players. We now have Heeney, Papley, Hewett and possibly Jack and Florent to help Rohan keep our forward zone locked up but they're all still kids so we'll see if the improvement comes.

In short: we have so many dangerous forward weapons but none of them compliment each other or our game plan.

 

[The Gong]

I don't think our problem has been too many talls or pace. It's that the talls we have haven't worked. When our mids aren't kicking and hoping, they're trying to send it deep to Buddy who just doesn't have the capacity to play as a marking full forward and isn't as effective deep inside 50 as he is around the arc. They'll aim for Tippett, who is a gun, but I think his lead-up skills are seriously poor. I've watched too many Swans games where he just allows himself to be blanketed by his opponent rather than even attempt to find space. And then he gets himself outnumbered which is why he struggles to consistently produce the strong contested marks he once could. Reid we haven't even been able to get on the park but when he is he is as strong as a pomeranian. Our last few rucks (Pyke, Derickx) didn't use their height as an advantage at full forward, they were regularly beaten in marking contests apart from 2012 when Pyke was great in that regard. And the worst part is that while all our talls have been dysfunctional in their own regards inside 50, we've never had a consistent group of smalls who could clean up with the loose balls, making us extremely susceptable (is that a word?) to opposition rebounds. For a long time we only had McGlynn and Rohan, who coincidentally were our two most injury-prone players. We now have Heeney, Papley, Hewett and possibly Jack and Florent to help Rohan keep our forward zone locked up but they're all still kids so we'll see if the improvement comes.

In short: we have so many dangerous forward weapons but none of them compliment each other or our game plan.

Harsh. I think we have more than enough talent to build a potent forward line. I agree it's a structural issue though. Delivery from the mids has never been great and that's the biggest issue.

Hawthorn at their best delivered short kicks to leading forwards with surgical precision. We bomb and hope. Address that with the forward talent we have and we'll be bloody dangerous.

 

[caesar88]

Harsh. I think we have more than enough talent to build a potent forward line. I agree it's a structural issue though. Delivery from the mids has never been great and that's the biggest issue.

Hawthorn at their best delivered short kicks to leading forwards with surgical precision. We bomb and hope. Address that with the forward talent we have and we'll be bloody dangerous.

We have a lot of talent up forward but it still feels like unfulfilled talent. Buddy aside, Tippett is as unreliable as anyone. He's more likely to be beaten in a contest by his opponent than he is to be the victor and dominate up forward. Don't get me started on Reid. It feels like the last four years we've been watching an elongated forward training session by Nick Davis rather than a fully-functioning, well-oiled forward line. Tippett and Reid play good games, then are MIA a week later; we have a dozen different goal-scorers one week, then go back to being Buddy-centric a week later. It's mind-numbing.

Granted we were way better last year, ironically without Tippett and Reid up forward for most of the year and a group of smalls rather than just one or two. Tall forward lines can win flags. With the forwards we have (a legend who can't mark, an inconsistent gun, and a Bambi), we will not.

 

[The King!]

We have a lot of talent up forward but it still feels like unfulfilled talent. Buddy aside, Tippett is as unreliable as anyone. He's more likely to be beaten in a contest by his opponent than he is to be the victor and dominate up forward. Don't get me started on Reid. It feels like the last four years we've been watching an elongated forward training session by Nick Davis rather than a fully-functioning, well-oiled forward line. Tippett and Reid play good games, then are MIA a week later; we have a dozen different goal-scorers one week, then go back to being Buddy-centric a week later. It's mind-numbing.

Granted we were way better last year, ironically without Tippett and Reid up forward for most of the year and a group of smalls rather than just one or two. Tall forward lines can win flags. With the forwards we have (a legend who can't mark, an inconsistent gun, and a Bambi), we will not.

For a team on paper that has talented forwards we take very few marks there it seems.

I cant be bothered checking the stats, but suspect we might be quite low on the marks inside 50 a game. Means we arent getting as many set shots as we should either. Some of its positioning, so needs to get the forward set up right, need good delivery but yeah need Tippett confident rag dolling a few, he gets outworked by smaller players a bit

 

[S120]

They cant rebound if they are out marked. We scored on average less than 12 goals against them in the big games last season. Tall forwards out marking smaller defenders win games. Its the job of the small forwards to defend against the rebound. Why do u assume there would be less pressure with a taller forward line? It depends what happens at the packs. The tactic that we have used of locking the ball into the forward line and kicking goals off forward stoppages does not win GF's. I guess it might be a good idea to play a 204 cm full forward who can hold a mark. Buddy does not take pack marks as great as he is. Reid will be used further up the ground as a linking half forward. Tippet is a ruckman these days and you cant kick winning scores with resting ruckmen. Buddy is teamed by two and three defenders. Cameron playing deep pulls the third defender away from Buddy. Many good reasons to CONSIDER Cameron as a full forward. It is obvious he will not be played as third ruckman.

Well given we don't have perhaps our 3 best small/medium tackling forwards in the side atm (Rohan, Papley, Heeney), we don't have many people to do the job of a small forward that you outline. I agree that it's down to those small forwards to make that pressure happen, but the more tall players in the forward line, the less room there is to fit other smaller players.

Also even if Cameron was never used as a ruckman, there would be times (short though they might be) where he's in the same forward line as Tippett. You can't guarantee perfect rotations to avoid that, and having those two up forward would exacerbate the issue even further.

 

[Jack2Jack]

B: Smith Grundy Rampe
HB: Mills Allir Lloyd
C: Jones Parker Jack
HF: Hewett Reid Robinson
F: Tippett Franklin Florent
R: Naismith Kennedy Hannebery
Int: Marsh Melican Cunningham Towers

- As long a Allir gets through and plays ok, he's a given. As long as Jack is ready I think he will play regardless of preparation (even not at 100% he's still likely to give us more than those last 2 on the bench) hopefully he can play some minutes in the practice game. May HAVE to play forward more purely because of his build up, even if it was part of the plan to spend more time there anyway.
- Marsh, Melican & Robinson were the 3 best performed fringe players over the JTL so should get the nod. Not completely sold on Robinson, but he's a given he was comfortably the best performed fringe and has earned a spot. I think with Heeney out a Lloyd/Jones/Mills may have to spend some additional minutes in the mids to cover (especially if Jack does end up playing forward more), which means there's an extra spot to allow Marsh and Melican to both play.
- Cunningham and Towers would be getting a game through default, they haven't particularly earned a spot but no-one else has demanded a spot over them either and the coaches will probably play it safe with experience.
- Along with Melican, Florent should debut...be staggered if he was left out over both Cunningham and Towers...Florent created more run than both combined.
- Cameron on form should be in the side over a few named, is very unlucky but plays in positions that are sorted for now. History says none of Tippett, Naismith or Reid will play every game so he probably won't have to wait long and will still play a fair bit of footy this year if he stays fit. Given what he was doing in the WAFL last year, he may be able to dominate at NEAFL level and force his way in.
- Laidler is a better option than a few named but, like Cameron, there's enough 'types' in the side already. Could only play in place of Marsh/Melican which isn't entirely impossible but I think those 2 are ahead going into round 1 as things stand right now. If he plays an absolute ripper in the practice game, who knows.
- If a forward/flanker other than K. Jack (say a Rose or someone) plays a blinder in the practice game this week, I'd like to see them play over Cunningham/Towers, prefer to at least back in a form player over carrying these two in their current form.

 

[MarkP]

Smith - Grundy - Melican
Mills - Aliir - Rampe

Fair enough. With Lloyd as your seventh, Rampe can play tall if necessary. Aliir's capacity for attacking football really adds something in this regard.

Yeh good back 7 that

 

[connolly]

Well given we don't have perhaps our 3 best small/medium tackling forwards in the side atm (Rohan, Papley, Heeney), we don't have many people to do the job of a small forward that you outline. I agree that it's down to those small forwards to make that pressure happen, but the more tall players in the forward line, the less room there is to fit other smaller players.

Also even if Cameron was never used as a ruckman, there would be times (short though they might be) where he's in the same forward line as Tippett. You can't guarantee perfect rotations to avoid that, and having those two up forward would exacerbate the issue even further.

Two really tall forwards depending on how they work together can be really effective together. Particularly if they block for each other against the third spoiling defender. Was really interesting in the JLT to see Shaw isolated in the goal square against Cameron who out marked him with ease. It will be an interesting tactic to push Cameron back onto Shaw who stays back for GWS as a sweeper. Its true that Shaw would rebound off him pretty easily but would young Darcy spill a mark against him one on one? GWS would have to drop Mumford or the other great streak of pelican s### back to cover him. We know Mumford is not a great defensive ruckman in the air. It would require them to drop a tall back or leave a smallish defender exposed. Darcy Cameron could be the pick up of the year for us if he is used as a full forward. Maybe Plugger has been brought in to school him. Hope so

 

[connolly]

WB say otherwise

They played a pretty small forward line and won the flag

That's true. But that was last season. WB great weakness is their small aging back line. We can go small against them to try to match their strength or go very tall to expose their weakness. It will be interesting. Just hope they give the big kid Cameron a chance as a forward. He is a straight kick. He holds his grabs. He could be anything up front.

 

[Tuco]

In 2016 we only had one player in the top 50 for marks inside 50.

Buddy was ranked 4th.

It suggests we either have a one man forwardline, or we share it so evenly to everyone else that we have a wonderful spread.

I suspect it's the former.

I think we were ranked 12th overall (might be wrong). Hawks by comparison basically owned this stat and were 1st or 2nd every year they made a GF, and always found an easy, pressure-releasing goal from a mark fwd when they needed one.

Whatever our structure is in 2017, I'd love to see us passing to our forwards in a manner that leads to more set shots.

If only we found our third fwd option free as easily as we find an inboard passing option rebounding from defence.

 

[Wolftone]

We've got Naismith, Tippett plus Reid. That's enough



B Smith Grundy Melican
HB Allir*(Marsh) Rampe Mills
C: Zak Hannebery Lloyd
HF: Hewett Franklin Reid
FF: Towers Tippett K Jack*(Foote)
R: Naismith JPK Parker

BENCH: Robinson, Florent Cunningham Laidler

If Allir is injured Marsh comes in. If Jack's injured I'll go for Foote.

I was a big wrap for Jordan Foote last year but he simply hasn't shown anything at the AFL level that makes me enthused. Newman the same unfortunately. From what I read Kizza won't be ready until round 2 but... you know reading sometimes the eyes play tricks.

I think if we are looking for experience then Laids must come in. Aliir will play if he stays fit but not on a flank at CHF. Melican played a flankers role last year at times in the reserves and was very good. A very tall flanke his intercept marking is particularly good. He isn't slow and seems to make space.

Jones will play K Jack's role in the centre square I think. Kizza is the release man, the one who receives from JPK & the other inside mids. If the ball is not extracted he becomes an inside tackling machine

I think Lloydy is being used more as the extractor in defense.

Bud will play on the flank and Reid CHF.

This will be a very different looking team to start the season. We will probably be even younger than Port in average age. More than possibly in experience. Whether we play Hayward, Cameron etc is neither here nor there the selection panel will pick who they do.


Hayward's second efforts and tackling pressure were very good. he is slowly picking up the pace. Seeing he only started competitive work recently he is coming on very nicely.

As to Cameron detractors, he only played 42 minutes last week, about a quarter and a half. He managed 5 disposals, 2 marks, 1 tackle & 1 goal. If you average that out it is about 12 disposals if he played the whole game. Naismith got 10 disposals. Josh Bruce the second ruck for Saints got D.10, HO. 2, G.0 from 88 min.

 

[Wolftone]

Cameron wouldn't be played as a ruckman - he would play full forward. Mat do some forward tap work. His presence pulls the third defender away from Buddy and Tippett and given that he actually holds his marks is a real threat to any defence. Against small defences such as GWS and Bulldogs he is an option.

That would make it a Hawthorn type forward set up. Roughy, Bud, Hale & Gunston all playing forward at the one time flanked by Bruist, Poppy, Rioli and the resting mids

 

[Wolftone]

WB say otherwise

They played a pretty small forward line and won the flag

We had a pretty small forward line too. Tip and Bud were the man tall and Richards a third tall/mobile player. Our forward line was not particularly big at all. Neither Richards or Budare known for their aerial prowess. Maybe we should have matched up their small forwards with smaller players but when you think that Bonts (192cm), Boyd (201), Roughead (200), Macrae (191) all rotated through there. At times it wasn't that small but they always had players like Dickson etc roving the packs looking dangerous. He is a hard match up because he is mid height at 184 and he's clever.

The fact was their talls brought the ball to ground more to the advantage of their smalls than ours did. Simple really. If you have the advantage you score goals. If you don't they run off you.

 

[caesar88]

I was a big wrap for Jordan Foote last year but he simply hasn't shown anything at the AFL level that makes me enthused. Newman the same unfortunately. From what I read Kizza won't be ready until round 2 but... you know reading sometimes the eyes play tricks.

I think if we are looking for experience then Laids must come in. Aliir will play if he stays fit but not on a flank at CHF. Melican played a flankers role last year at times in the reserves and was very good. A very tall flanke his intercept marking is particularly good. He isn't slow and seems to make space.

Jones will play K Jack's role in the centre square I think. Kizza is the release man, the one who receives from JPK & the other inside mids. If the ball is not extracted he becomes an inside tackling machine

I think Lloydy is being used more as the extractor in defense.

Bud will play on the flank and Reid CHF.

This will be a very different looking team to start the season. We will probably be even younger than Port in average age. More than possibly in experience. Whether we play Hayward, Cameron etc is neither here nor there the selection panel will pick who they do.


Hayward's second efforts and tackling pressure were very good. he is slowly picking up the pace. Seeing he only started competitive work recently he is coming on very nicely.

As to Cameron detractors, he only played 42 minutes last week, about a quarter and a half. He managed 5 disposals, 2 marks, 1 tackle & 1 goal. If you average that out it is about 12 disposals if he played the whole game. Naismith got 10 disposals. Josh Bruce the second ruck for Saints got D.10, HO. 2, G.0 from 88 min.

i'll pass on experience if it comes in the form of blokes like Laidler, Towers and Cunningham.

 

[6yearsold]

I was a big wrap for Jordan Foote last year but he simply hasn't shown anything at the AFL level that makes me enthused. Newman the same unfortunately. From what I read Kizza won't be ready until round 2 but... you know reading sometimes the eyes play tricks.

I think if we are looking for experience then Laids must come in. Aliir will play if he stays fit but not on a flank at CHF. Melican played a flankers role last year at times in the reserves and was very good. A very tall flanke his intercept marking is particularly good. He isn't slow and seems to make space.

Jones will play K Jack's role in the centre square I think. Kizza is the release man, the one who receives from JPK & the other inside mids. If the ball is not extracted he becomes an inside tackling machine

I think Lloydy is being used more as the extractor in defense.

Bud will play on the flank and Reid CHF.

This will be a very different looking team to start the season. We will probably be even younger than Port in average age. More than possibly in experience. Whether we play Hayward, Cameron etc is neither here nor there the selection panel will pick who they do.


Hayward's second efforts and tackling pressure were very good. he is slowly picking up the pace. Seeing he only started competitive work recently he is coming on very nicely.

As to Cameron detractors, he only played 42 minutes last week, about a quarter and a half. He managed 5 disposals, 2 marks, 1 tackle & 1 goal. If you average that out it is about 12 disposals if he played the whole game. Naismith got 10 disposals. Josh Bruce the second ruck for Saints got D.10, HO. 2, G.0 from 88 min.

lloyd is the jpk of our defence?

 

[Kiama Chris]

B: Smith Grundy Rampe
HB: Mills Allir Lloyd
C: Jones Parker Jack
HF: Hewett Reid Robinson
F: Tippett Franklin Florent
R: Naismith Kennedy Hannebery
Int: Marsh Melican Cunningham Towers

- As long a Allir gets through and plays ok, he's a given. As long as Jack is ready I think he will play regardless of preparation (even not at 100% he's still likely to give us more than those last 2 on the bench) hopefully he can play some minutes in the practice game. May HAVE to play forward more purely because of his build up, even if it was part of the plan to spend more time there anyway.
- Marsh, Melican & Robinson were the 3 best performed fringe players over the JTL so should get the nod. Not completely sold on Robinson, but he's a given he was comfortably the best performed fringe and has earned a spot. I think with Heeney out a Lloyd/Jones/Mills may have to spend some additional minutes in the mids to cover (especially if Jack does end up playing forward more), which means there's an extra spot to allow Marsh and Melican to both play.
- Cunningham and Towers would be getting a game through default, they haven't particularly earned a spot but no-one else has demanded a spot over them either and the coaches will probably play it safe with experience.
- Along with Melican, Florent should debut...be staggered if he was left out over both Cunningham and Towers...Florent created more run than both combined.
- Cameron on form should be in the side over a few named, is very unlucky but plays in positions that are sorted for now. History says none of Tippett, Naismith or Reid will play every game so he probably won't have to wait long and will still play a fair bit of footy this year if he stays fit. Given what he was doing in the WAFL last year, he may be able to dominate at NEAFL level and force his way in.
- Laidler is a better option than a few named but, like Cameron, there's enough 'types' in the side already. Could only play in place of Marsh/Melican which isn't entirely impossible but I think those 2 are ahead going into round 1 as things stand right now. If he plays an absolute ripper in the practice game, who knows.
- If a forward/flanker other than K. Jack (say a Rose or someone) plays a blinder in the practice game this week, I'd like to see them play over Cunningham/Towers, prefer to at least back in a form player over carrying these two in their current form.

Pretty close to what Horse will pick IMO. Probably Laidler ahead of Melican if fit. Done nothing wrong. Port not a very tall forward line. Ideally one more quick outside mid but no one has screamed "pick me!".

 

[Kiama Chris]

Two really tall forwards depending on how they work together can be really effective together. Particularly if they block for each other against the third spoiling defender. Was really interesting in the JLT to see Shaw isolated in the goal square against Cameron who out marked him with ease. It will be an interesting tactic to push Cameron back onto Shaw who stays back for GWS as a sweeper. Its true that Shaw would rebound off him pretty easily but would young Darcy spill a mark against him one on one? GWS would have to drop Mumford or the other great streak of pelican s### back to cover him. We know Mumford is not a great defensive ruckman in the air. It would require them to drop a tall back or leave a smallish defender exposed. Darcy Cameron could be the pick up of the year for us if he is used as a full forward. Maybe Plugger has been brought in to school him. Hope so

Love your thinking about different tactics and structures. I think that Cameron will be one of Plugger's projects (don't forget Pink either) but getting the marking tactics right for all of them could be a big part of it too. Last 2 years lack of marking targets has been an issue, not so much lack of height. Plugger one of the best ever on the lead.

 

[Kiama Chris]

i'll pass on experience if it comes in the form of blokes like Laidler, Towers and Cunningham.

Those are three very different players with different strengths and weaknesses. They all offer something. Laidler is brave as anything but struggles for speed, Towers has most of the tools but not the vision or composure, Cunningham has all the tools but needs to be told what to do about every 30 seconds.