Best AFL Player ever

[Monkey King]

It is relevant to any mid or any forward or any combination of both, and yes it's a combination of the two. In this sense it applies to everybody, as defenders are not measured by stats. The extra disposals are more than cancelled out by the extra goals, or vice vice versa. Combination.

Nah. Only really relevant to fwd/mids. Of course, you can apply it to anyone, but the relevancy doesn't scale.

In bold is randomly applied subjective waffle. How many extra goals are are needed exactly to cancel out extra disposals and vice versa? Show me a table of weighting so at least your personal subjective take on the values attached to each statistic, rightly or wrongly, can be quantified.

In his prime Matthews was listed as a rover in Grand Final teams, Harris was listed as a forward pocket.

Yes. It's already been established that you filter out numerous reputable sources of info about Harris' career in favour of just one or two team sheets from a 196 game career ... as the meme goes THAT IS THE JOKE!

Beyond your mental filters however, there is a wealth of sources that confirm to impartial observers that Harris was a rover and that he averaged more goals per game across his career than Matthews. This is just a fact.

 

[Lethality]

Nah. Only really relevant to fwd/mids. Of course, you can apply it to anyone, but the relevancy doesn't scale.

It's relevant to both. You would just need a similarly dominant statistical combination. The only exception would be full-forwards because there is so much overlap.

In bold is randomly applied subjective waffle. How many extra goals are are needed exactly to cancel out extra disposals and vice versa? Show me a table of weighting so at least your personal subjective take on the values attached to each statistic, rightly or wrongly, can be quantified.

There is no weighting, it's just a trade-off. For example Matthews is a third ahead of the next best midfielder in goalkicking so he would need to be more than a third behind in disposals to fall back to even.

Yes. It's already been established that you filter out numerous reputable sources of info about Harris' career in favour of just one or two team sheets

Not at all, and I have given just a few reasons here why Harris is considered as a forward pocket, and there are others which we have also discussed.

Beyond your mental filters however, there is a wealth of sources that confirm to impartial observers that Harris was a rover

There are sources which would corroborate that, but not confirm, just as there are equally or more which suggest otherwise. I feel a leap of faith would be required to think that a player who was only ever listed as a forward pocket in his prime was actually a rover who scored the most goals per game of any midfielder in the game without ever winning a best and fairest. The simplest explanation was that he was a forward pocket, which is where he was listed, and was referred to as a rover as in a second rover because that was the vernacular at the time for small forwards.

 

[Monkey King]

It's relevant to both. You would just need a similarly dominant statistical combination. The only exception would be full-forwards because there is so much overlap.



There is no weighting, it's just a trade-off. For example Matthews is a third ahead of the next best midfielder in goalkicking so he would need to be more than a third behind in disposals to fall back to even.



Not at all, and I have given just a few reasons here why Harris is considered as a forward pocket, and there are others which we have also discussed.



There are sources which would corroborate that, but not confirm, just as there are equally or more which suggest otherwise. I feel a leap of faith would be required to think that a player who was only ever listed as a forward pocket in his prime was actually a rover who scored the most goals per game of any midfielder in the game without ever winning a best and fairest. The simplest explanation was that he was a forward pocket, which is where he was listed, and was referred to as a rover as in a second rover because that was the vernacular at the time for small forwards.

Can't be bothered with your waffle anymore. My last post said it all. You just make it up as you go along to suit whatever viewpoint you're promoting. That's been made obvious. My work here is done.

 

[Lethality]

Can't be bothered with your waffle anymore. My last post said it all. You just make it up as you go along to suit whatever viewpoint you're promoting. That's been made obvious. My work here is done.

My viewpoints are accepted axioms across all players and different sports even.

 

[marty36]

Why isn't Wayne Carey in the poll, clearly it's the only one I would vote he was a freak

 

[Procrastinator35]

O/P needs to read some modern history, as opposed to anything up to 1965.

Speaking of which mods....The title needs adjusting to VFL & from antiquity.

 

[DERO]

What a stupid poll. The best player of my generation is not even an option and nor is his son.

 

[Procrastinator35]

What a stupid poll. The best player of my generation is not even an option and nor is his son.

Well I'm 50, & never got to see any of these blokes play, as they were all done & dusted by 1971....So not much chance many on these boards would be in a position to comment.

Most of these blokes started playing in the mid 50's on up to the late 60's....With Dyer & Bunton a full generation before that....So you'd need to be 65 year's old, at a minimum, to have any clue.

Coupled with the fact there's no: Baldock, Coleman, Coventry, Hudson, Pratt or Reynolds....Which means it's neither an exhaustive nor inclusive list up to 1970.....And I've had plenty of older working colleagues, over the years, argue the case for all 6 of these blokes being the best they'd ever seen.

Then of course, there's the absence of Ablett snr, Carey, Dempsey, Doull, Hart, Jesaulenko, Lockett, Matthews, Nicholls or Stewart.

A very poorly worded thread, it must be said.

 

[DERO]

Well I'm 50, & never got to see any of these blokes play, as they were all done & dusted by 1971....So not much chance many on these boards would be in a position to comment.

Most of these blokes started playing in the mid 50's on up to the late 60's....With Dyer & Bunton a full generation before that....So you'd need to be 65 year's old, at a minimum, to have any clue.

Coupled with the fact there's no: Baldock, Coleman, Coventry, Hudson, Pratt or Reynolds....Which means it's neither an exhaustive nor inclusive list up to 1970.....And I've had plenty of older working colleagues, over the years, argue the case for all 6 of these blokes being the best they'd ever seen.

Then of course, there's the absence of Ablett snr, Carey, Dempsey, Doull, Hart, Jesaulenko, Lockett, Matthews, Nicholls or Stewart.

A very poorly worded thread, it must be said.

Technically they are VFL players.

 

[The King!]

Gets harder over time to judge

Doubt many of us saw all these players

 

[ChrisRyanSaints]

None.

Leigh Matthews,
Wayne Carey,
Jason Dunstall.

They're my top 3.

Seriously dunstall over lockett?? Spare me please.

 

[scaryness]

How can people vote for Dyer or Buntn?

They would have never even seen them play!

 

[BillyW]

Best I've seen:

1. The Duck
2. Little Gaz
3. God
4. Hirdy
5. The Chief
6. Plugger
7. SOS
8. Diesel
9. Vossy
10. Roo

Hard to judge players from previous eras.....it's only fair to judge players "we've seen" so a good reply!
Great list! Although I would swap Roo and the Chief...

 

[RedWhite&Blue]

Probably the worst list of poll options ever. All the experts say either Matthews or Carey, yet neither are on the list......

My vote goes to the Duck. dominated the toughest and arguably most important player on the ground.

Experts that were born after 1965 might say that.
It was always Coleman pre 1950's, then Whitten through the late 50's, 60's and 70's - then people forgot and they said it was Matthews - then it was Yabiletttttt - Then it was Carey - and now it's Bontempelli!!!!

 

[Procrastinator35]

Experts that were born after 1965 might say that.
It was always Coleman pre 1950's, then Whitten through the late 50's, 60's and 70's - then people forgot and they said it was Matthews - then it was Yabiletttttt - Then it was Carey - and now it's Bontempelli!!!!

LOL....Remind me again how many flags Teddy led the Dogs to?....Barassi 6>>>Whitten 1....Skilton, Baldock & Stewart were the guns of the 60's; before Hudson & Jesaulenko dominated from 68-72....Then it was Hart & Nicholls turn, before Dempsey & Matthews finished off the mid 70's to early 80's.

 

[BORK]

Can someone mount a solid statistically backed argument about why Whitten is to be considered so far ahead of his peers during his era?

 

[Procrastinator35]

Can someone mount a solid statistically backed argument about why Whitten is to be considered so far ahead of his peers during his era?

It's kinda like how Ronnie Andrews, Des Dickson & Robbie Muir were head & shoulders above their peers.

 

[Bobby_]

Can someone mount a solid statistically backed argument about why Whitten is to be considered so far ahead of his peers during his era?

I haven't heard this myself.
I know he's regarded as one of the best that ever played the game but Baldock & Skilton are held in similar high regard.

 

[MadMaxx]

Wander down to the MCG, and check out those players who have statues.

There is your shortlist

For those not in Melb

The list, in no particular order:
Barassi
Matthews
Bunton
Reynolds
Coleman
Stynes

Norm Smith is there as a coach also

IMO, Stynes probably got his statue as a result of his courageous struggle with Cancer, and the great work he did for Charity. Even though he was a top player, most would agree he isn't there on ability alone.

 

[Trav 20]

Wander down to the MCG, and check out those players who have statues.

There is your shortlist

For those not in Melb

The list, in no particular order:
Barassi
Matthews
Bunton
Reynolds
Coleman
Stynes

Norm Smith is there as a coach also

IMO, Stynes probably got his statue as a result of his courageous struggle with Cancer, and the great work he did for Charity. Even though he was a top player, most would agree he isn't there on ability alone.

He's definitely not there on his football exploits alone, but you forgot that he's the greatest football story of all time.

An Irishman crossed the world, was sent back to Prahran, came back and became a champion of his club, while also winning the game's highest individual honour. That's far more important than his cancer battle.

 

[MadMaxx]

Great Story, I agree. I was there in 1987 at VFL PArk when he famously ran the mark. I said to my brother that he would never play again after that. How wrong I was.

But we have a wealth of great stories in our footy history. Given that he played for Melbourne, that had a fair bit to do with it also given the close association with the MCC and the MFC.

 

[The_Flying_Egg]

Can someone mount a solid statistically backed argument about why Whitten is to be considered so far ahead of his peers during his era?

Can you make a solid statistical case for any players that played prior to about the 80's?? It's an odd request, stats in older times are very limited

 

[BORK]

Can you make a solid statistical case for any players that played prior to about the 80's?? It's an odd request, stats in older times are very limited

He was leading this poll when I posted that. I think it is a fair stretch to have him top 10. I do wonder if a relatively young death may mean he is overrated by some people while still being exceptional. Eddie Guererro in wrestling a similar example.

 

[Trav 20]

Can you make a solid statistical case for any players that played prior to about the 80's?? It's an odd request, stats in older times are very limited

In 1977, when he was 25, Leigh Matthews averaged 27 disposals (equivalent to over 30 today) and kicked 91 goals as first rover. At that stage he wasn't playing predominantly forward.

There's a reason he won 9 Best & Fairests and is the greatest player of all time. Easily.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Can you make a solid statistical case for any players that played prior to about the 80's?? It's an odd request, stats in older times are very limited

All the comprehensive VFL/AFL stats are available from 1965 onward.

Here you go:

http://afltables.com/afl/stats/stats_idx.html