best baller I've ever seen

[Peninsula Boy]

I take your point, a very good point, but do you realise how many 'showtime' plays Magic instigated but didn't receive the assist because it included a second or third pass. Mostly for entertainment purposes, to bring the LA crowd into the game, or silence the home crowd, but if assists were recorded in the basketball, the same way they are in ice hockey, then Magic's assist average would be over 15, instead of 11.2. Both players dominated their era's in their own style, both are easily the best players of their era (a big call considering Magic was up against Larry Bird and Dr. J), but Magic's allround versatility will always have Magic ahead of Jordan in my books. In fact I'd also rank Wilt Chamberlain and Oscar Robertson ahead of Jordan for similiar reasons to Magic. Greater versatility.

IMHO an unstoppable scorer was better than an all round player. Also, it can be said that Jordan was a great all round player. He was a great passer [you have to be in the trianble offence], top rebounder for a guard, generally won NBA steals along with his scoring title and blocked well for a guard too, especailly from the weak side.

I think Jordan could have played the point easily enough and excelled but well rounded guards are not known for winning titles. Magic was in a dynasty but Oscar Robertson I think didn't win a championship and Jason Kidd, another in that type came close maybe one in New Jersey. I'm not sure why you have Wilt in there? He was a good passer but he was just as dominant as Jordan. You'd bundle him in with Jordan as unstoppable.

 

[DEVO]

IMHO an unstoppable scorer was better than an all round player. Also, it can be said that Jordan was a great all round player. He was a great passer [you have to be in the trianble offence], top rebounder for a guard, generally won NBA steals along with his scoring title and blocked well for a guard too, especailly from the weak side.

I think Jordan could have played the point easily enough and excelled but well rounded guards are not known for winning titles. Magic was in a dynasty but Oscar Robertson I think didn't win a championship and Jason Kidd, another in that type came close maybe one in New Jersey. I'm not sure why you have Wilt in there? He was a good passer but he was just as dominant as Jordan. You'd bundle him in with Jordan as unstoppable.

Jordan was hard to stop, but you could reduce his influence, which is why it took Jordan 7 seasons to win his first Championship, because Boston and then Detroit had the player to withstand his onslaught. Some will say he didn't have the depth in his team back in the eighties to match those great teams, and I agree, but IMO he didn't have the depth in his team in the nineties to match any of thosee great teams either. The Laker and Celtic teams of the mid eighties inparticular had the rosters to nulify anything the Bulls could throw at them.
Magic on the otherhand is probably the hardest person in the history of the NBA to control, first because he is one of the great passer, if not the greatest, secondly because he stood about 6 inches taller than any other PG and was just as mobile, and thirdly because no one can match his versality. Jordan may have had many facets to his game, but no one comes close to versality of Earvin 'Magic' Johnson.
If the Laker and Celtic squads of the eighties were playing in the nineties, both teams would have contested all 10 NBA champions finals. And I think the Lakers would have taken home 6, possibly 7 titles.

As for well-rounded guards not wining titles, Magic won 5, Oscar Robertson won 1, Bob Cousey won 7 and Isiah Thomas won 2. Jordan maybe the only guard who won a title without a dominant centre, but outside Shaq and Hakeem, dominant centres were a little thin in the nineties.

 

[Papa G]

Bird played with the impediment of being white - therefore ranks as the all time best basketballer in my book.

 

[DEVO]

Bird played with the impediment of being white - therefore ranks as the all time best basketballer in my book.

Jerry West was better than Bird, and he is white also.

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

Jerry West was better than Bird, and he is white also.

I can't agree with that, in fact i'd put Havlicek in front of West too.

 

[rick James]

Jordan maybe the only guard who won a title without a dominant centre, but outside Shaq and Hakeem, dominant centres were a little thin in the nineties.

LOL wtf the 90's was THE best era for centres:

Ewing
Robinson
Mourning
Shaq
Olajuwon

Were all dominant centres

 

[Peninsula Boy]

Jordan was hard to stop, but you could reduce his influence, which is why it took Jordan 7 seasons to win his first Championship, because Boston and then Detroit had the player to withstand his onslaught. Some will say he didn't have the depth in his team back in the eighties to match those great teams, and I agree, but IMO he didn't have the depth in his team in the nineties to match any of thosee great teams either. The Laker and Celtic teams of the mid eighties inparticular had the rosters to nulify anything the Bulls could throw at them.
Magic on the otherhand is probably the hardest person in the history of the NBA to control, first because he is one of the great passer, if not the greatest, secondly because he stood about 6 inches taller than any other PG and was just as mobile, and thirdly because no one can match his versality. Jordan may have had many facets to his game, but no one comes close to versality of Earvin 'Magic' Johnson.
If the Laker and Celtic squads of the eighties were playing in the nineties, both teams would have contested all 10 NBA champions finals. And I think the Lakers would have taken home 6, possibly 7 titles.

As for well-rounded guards not wining titles, Magic won 5, Oscar Robertson won 1, Bob Cousey won 7 and Isiah Thomas won 2. Jordan maybe the only guard who won a title without a dominant centre, but outside Shaq and Hakeem, dominant centres were a little thin in the nineties.

I'd go Bird over West.

I look at it this way. Not even the dirty Detroit Pistons quelled Jordan and they were a much better and harsher defence than the Lakers in the 80s. Michael Cooper wouldn't have stopped Jordan. It would have been the same scenario of scoring on him or doublt teaming the triangle offence.

I don't think Cousy should count. not because he wasn't a well rounded guard, that Celtics team was just that good, you can use anything from that team as an example to use.

To be pedantic, I thought the 90s had a decent amount of centres. Shaq, Hakeem, The Admiral Robinson, Ewing, Divac, Zo, Duncan, Mutombo, I'm sure I missed a few. Jordan had the talented big men of Grant/Rodman and then Cartwright, a defensive player and little else and Luc Longely and the other white meat. Not much protection.

The main reason for Jordan taking 7 years is because he came up against a dirty Pistons team and also Doub Collins had to go and Phil Jackson and his triangle offence had to come in. Players need a yaer or two to acclimitize to the triangle. But he got 6, man.

As stated, i'd prefer an unstoppable guard to a well rounded guard because in the end, the unstoppable guard will hit the shots that count.

 

[Zep666]

In my opinion, a great basketballer is versatile, no other player but oscar robertson fits that description, this guy averaged triple doubles in seasons!

Erving i think did more for the game than no one else could, he played the biggest part of NBA becoming popular in the US again.

Magic Johnson i think was another outstanding player, because he made his teammates around him better players and was a phenomenal force himself.

(being a boston fan myself) LARRY BIRD i think deserves much credit because like someone said before, he's white and of course a black man at fitness prime is more athletic than a white mans and of course, he had back issues during the middle-end of his career but was still able to put up astounding numbers.

 

[wooostace]

Larry Bird, MJ, the usual..

 

[jod23]

Dingster pulls over a chair, pours a beer and waits for Jod.

Where to start though...

 

[jod23]

Well let's start with the ridiculous comments that got this thread going. Penny Hardaway is in no way, shape or form anywhere near as skillful or as good as Michael Jordan. Full Stop.

How can Penny have more skills than the GOAT? Wouldnt that then make Penny the GOAT? The reason MJ is the GOAT is because he has the most skills, I thought that would be freaking obvious. Everyone used to go on and on about Penny Hardaway. He was a poor man's Magic. A very poor man's Magic.

 

[jod23]

Jordan was hard to stop, but you could reduce his influence, which is why it took Jordan 7 seasons to win his first Championship, because Boston and then Detroit had the player to withstand his onslaught. Some will say he didn't have the depth in his team back in the eighties to match those great teams, and I agree, but IMO he didn't have the depth in his team in the nineties to match any of thosee great teams either. The Laker and Celtic teams of the mid eighties inparticular had the rosters to nulify anything the Bulls could throw at them..

What are you on Devo? The only reason his influence was reduced in the early part of his career was because he was playing with really terrible teammates. It wasnt a surprise that he started to win titles once Pippen arrived. Why is it you think the Lakers and Celtics won so much. Let's stop Magic, oh wait what about Kareem, oh yeah but what about Worthy? Same goes for Boston.

In Jordan's early career. To beat the Bulls, all you did was throw everything you could at Jordan. Once Pippen arrived, he had help. Just like Bird had help and just like Magic had help.

The Lakers and Celtics of the 80's v the Bulls of the 90's we have been over too many times. So let's not go there again.

Magic on the otherhand is probably the hardest person in the history of the NBA to control, first because he is one of the great passer, if not the greatest, secondly because he stood about 6 inches taller than any other PG and was just as mobile, and thirdly because no one can match his versality. Jordan may have had many facets to his game, but no one comes close to versality of Earvin 'Magic' Johnson.
If the Laker and Celtic squads of the eighties were playing in the nineties, both teams would have contested all 10 NBA champions finals. And I think the Lakers would have taken home 6, possibly 7 titles..

I understand where your coming from with Magic. He was very versatile but he wasnt the hardest player to control. Jordan is. Simply because whilst Magic controls the tempo and guides his team like an orchestra which is great, Jordan just says gimme the rock and Ill do it. You would think Magic's way is better but in reality Jordan was so good, really it was his way that was best.

You need points, you need a defensive stop, you need a game winner. Magic could do it all but he would need his teammates to help. Magic would drive, fake and dish and create a wide open shot for a teammate for the win. The teammate then must hit the shot. Jordan would just do it himself. Different styles but if your debating on who was tougher to control then it was definitely Jordan.

As for well-rounded guards not wining titles, Magic won 5, Oscar Robertson won 1, Bob Cousey won 7 and Isiah Thomas won 2. Jordan maybe the only guard who won a title without a dominant centre, but outside Shaq and Hakeem, dominant centres were a little thin in the nineties.

This is the biggest single point that stands Jordan above all others in the history of the game. He won not one title...not a couple. But 6 world championships without the help of a dominant bigman. Just look over the history of the sport. Their isnt many teams that won titles without a dominant bigman. Jordan did it 6 times!

Oh and your dominant centres thin in the nineties comment had me laughing out loud. The late 80's and all of the 90's was blessed with superstar bigmen. Never will an era see that many great centres all playing at the same time. Robinson, Ewing, Shaq, Olajuwon, Duncan, Mutombo, Divac, Mourning etc... The 90's was blessed.

 

[rick James]

Never will an era see that many great centres all playing at the same time. Robinson, Ewing, Shaq, Olajuwon, Duncan, Mutombo, Divac, Mourning etc... The 90's was blessed.

Completely agree, I don't think you'll ever see THAT many gun centres going around at once, you could even throw Webber in there as he played C whilst he was at Golden State and won ROTY.

 

[jod23]

Oh and to answer the question of the original post. I think it's pretty obvious who the best baller ive ever seen is.

You simply dont get any better than Michael Jordan, his overall game is just unrivalled. From is unstoppable offence to his lock down defence. His determination and will to win have never been matched. He is the GOAT.

 

[DEVO]

What are you on Devo? The only reason his influence was reduced in the early part of his career was because he was playing with really terrible teammates. It wasnt a surprise that he started to win titles once Pippen arrived. Why is it you think the Lakers and Celtics won so much. Let's stop Magic, oh wait what about Kareem, oh yeah but what about Worthy? Same goes for Boston.

In Jordan's early career. To beat the Bulls, all you did was throw everything you could at Jordan. Once Pippen arrived, he had help. Just like Bird had help and just like Magic had help.

Isn't that what I said??

I understand where your coming from with Magic. He was very versatile but he wasnt the hardest player to control. Jordan is. Simply because whilst Magic controls the tempo and guides his team like an orchestra which is great, Jordan just says gimme the rock and Ill do it. You would think Magic's way is better but in reality Jordan was so good, really it was his way that was best.

You need points, you need a defensive stop, you need a game winner. Magic could do it all but he would need his teammates to help. Magic would drive, fake and dish and create a wide open shot for a teammate for the win. The teammate then must hit the shot. Jordan would just do it himself. Different styles but if your debating on who was tougher to control then it was definitely Jordan.

The era's Magic and Jordan dominated were different, whether you like it or not, expansion of the NBA in late eighties had a huge impact on how the game was played in the nineties. In the eighties, it wasn't unusual to see a team with 3, 4 or 5 genuine hall of famers in the line up, in the nineties it was a rarity. Magic had to overcome deeper, more talented rosters, but showed on numerous occassions (the most famous being Game 6 of the 1980 finals series at Philly) that he could take total control and dominate a game in fashion that even Jordan himself is in awe of.

Finally, your comments suggest Jordan didn't have any help. Are you finally dishing on the greatly overrated Pippen??

This is the biggest single point that stands Jordan above all others in the history of the game. He won not one title...not a couple. But 6 world championships without the help of a dominant bigman. Just look over the history of the sport. Their isnt many teams that won titles without a dominant bigman. Jordan did it 6 times!

Oh and your dominant centres thin in the nineties comment had me laughing out loud. The late 80's and all of the 90's was blessed with superstar bigmen. Never will an era see that many great centres all playing at the same time. Robinson, Ewing, Shaq, Olajuwon, Duncan, Mutombo, Divac, Mourning etc... The 90's was blessed.

1950’s – George Mikan, Clyde Lovelette, Dolph Schayes, Risens, Larry Foust, Neil Johnston.
1960’s – Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell, Zelmo Beaty, Walt Bellamy, Connie Hawkins, Jerry Lucas, Willis Reed.
1970’s – Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Dave Cowens, Artis Gilmore, Bob Lanier, Bob McAdoo, Nate Thurmond, Bill Walton, Wes Unseld.
1980’s – Moses Malone, Robert Parish, Patrick Ewing (IMO at his peak 1986-1991), Darryl Dawkins, Caldwell Jones, Bill Laimbeer.

Every era had great centres, like the ones I've listed above, but very few I'd class as dominant, guys who left an indelable mark on the game, changed the game andchanged the fortunes of their franchise. As I said, outside of Shaq and Olajuwan, none of the centres you mention did that.

 

[rick James]

Everyone used to go on and on about Penny Hardaway. He was a poor man's Magic. A very poor man's Magic.

Disagree, skill wise he had everything Magic had, but he could dunk on ANYONE which is something Magic oculdn't do.

Penny would regularly slam it over Hakeem and Ewing and Mourning - skills alone, Penny is the best baller I seen, Injury ruined his career, but I've never seen anyone like penny and I am sure i never will.

 

[DEVO]

Disagree, skill wise he had everything Magic had, but he could dunk on ANYONE which is something Magic oculdn't do.

It's not that Magic couldn't dunk over guys like Moses Malone, Robert Parish and co, he chose not to. If you look back at his career, he very rarely dunked, he always prefererred the finger role, or layup.

 

[Theseventhhamster]

Disagree, skill wise he had everything Magic had, but he could dunk on ANYONE which is something Magic oculdn't do.

Penny would regularly slam it over Hakeem and Ewing and Mourning - skills alone, Penny is the best baller I seen, Injury ruined his career, but I've never seen anyone like penny and I am sure i never will.

There's no way that Penny had Magic's ball handling or passing skills and that's not a knock on Penny either. Penny was the better shooter and dunker but if he had Magic's skills he'd still be playing.

 

[rick James]

There's no way that Penny had Magic's ball handling or passing skills and that's not a knock on Penny either. Penny was the better shooter and dunker but if he had Magic's skills he'd still be playing.

true

 

[jod23]

Disagree, skill wise he had everything Magic had, but he could dunk on ANYONE which is something Magic oculdn't do.

Penny would regularly slam it over Hakeem and Ewing and Mourning - skills alone, Penny is the best baller I seen, Injury ruined his career, but I've never seen anyone like penny and I am sure i never will.

Dude... Harold Miner was a great dunker but he was a ******** basketball player. Who really cares if Penny could dunk on ppl?

What are these amazing skills that Penny had? Was his fade away jumper deadlier than MJ's? Was his passing ability anywhere near to that of Magic's or Thomas'? Could he shoot 3's like Bird?

No.

Penny had a nice all round game, but so do many players Magic and Jordan included. Kidd, T-mac, Kobe, Lebron... all guards, forwards with similar all round skillful games. Penny doesnt stand out at all IMO. Plus he looked a million times better with Shaq in the middle.

 

[jod23]

Isn't that what I said??



The era's Magic and Jordan dominated were different, whether you like it or not, expansion of the NBA in late eighties had a huge impact on how the game was played in the nineties. In the eighties, it wasn't unusual to see a team with 3, 4 or 5 genuine hall of famers in the line up, in the nineties it was a rarity. Magic had to overcome deeper, more talented rosters, but showed on numerous occassions (the most famous being Game 6 of the 1980 finals series at Philly) that he could take total control and dominate a game in fashion that even Jordan himself is in awe of.

Finally, your comments suggest Jordan didn't have any help. Are you finally dishing on the greatly overrated Pippen?? .

You always say this... yeah I get it, the 80's had deep teams. 3, 4 or 5 HOFers on some teams. But it didnt make the 90's any easier. Magic had 2 or 3 HOFer's to help him win, but he was also playing a team with 3 or 4 HOFers. So it balances out.

In the 90's usually the norm was to have one superstar and a solid backup man to get anywhere in the playoffs. So even though the league was more diluted, you were still playing teams with similar talent pools just like the 80's.

1950’s – George Mikan, Clyde Lovelette, Dolph Schayes, Risens, Larry Foust, Neil Johnston.
1960’s – Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell, Zelmo Beaty, Walt Bellamy, Connie Hawkins, Jerry Lucas, Willis Reed.
1970’s – Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Dave Cowens, Artis Gilmore, Bob Lanier, Bob McAdoo, Nate Thurmond, Bill Walton, Wes Unseld.
1980’s – Moses Malone, Robert Parish, Patrick Ewing (IMO at his peak 1986-1991), Darryl Dawkins, Caldwell Jones, Bill Laimbeer.

Every era had great centres, like the ones I've listed above, but very few I'd class as dominant, guys who left an indelable mark on the game, changed the game andchanged the fortunes of their franchise. As I said, outside of Shaq and Olajuwan, none of the centres you mention did that.

Your stretching it a bit with some of those names. And are you telling me that only Shaq and Olajuwon qualify in your "changed the game or fortune of the franchise" category. Yet every centre you named above definitely did that?

Guy's like Dawkins, Jones, Laimbeer, McAdoo, Gilmore, Beaty, Hawkins etc are half the player a guy like David Robinson was, or Patrick Ewing.

Ewing, Robinson, Olajuwon and Shaq were all voted into the top 50 of all time. The late 80's and early 90's was blessed with bigmen.

 

[rick James]

T-mac, Kobe, Lebron...

I reckon Penny was substantially better than any of those guys.

 

[jod23]

I reckon Penny was substantially better than any of those guys.

T-Mac is full of injuries, tough to compare. Kobe as much as I hate him has it all over Penny and LeBron is just getting under way.

 

[rick James]

T-Mac is full of injuries, tough to compare. Kobe as much as I hate him has it all over Penny and LeBron is just getting under way.

T-Mac isn't in the same league as Penny. Penny had worse injuries than T-Mac too, btw.

Kobe won some championships when Shaq was in his prime.

Penny CARRIED Shaq to the finals.

LeBron is massively over rated. Not even in the top ten oplayers in the league imo.

 

[jod23]

T-Mac isn't in the same league as Penny. Penny had worse injuries than T-Mac too, btw.

Kobe won some championships when Shaq was in his prime.

Penny CARRIED Shaq to the finals.

LeBron is massively over rated. Not even in the top ten oplayers in the league imo.

Never saw the best of T-Mac though, for a couple of brief years we saw the best of Penny. I cant defend Kobe cos I hate him.... great player though and a huge call to think Penny was a better player.

Cant comment on LeBron, too early.