Opinion Best player in the game going into 2022?

Who is the best player in the competition going into 2022

  • Bontempelli

    Votes: 71 27.8%
  • Oliver

    Votes: 43 16.9%
  • Petracca

    Votes: 59 23.1%
  • Martin

    Votes: 32 12.5%
  • Greene

    Votes: 9 3.5%
  • Other

    Votes: 41 16.1%

  • Total voters
    255

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Proper Gander

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I dream stuff like that only as I start singing, my socks try to attack me and the oval gets filled with Cape Horn Buffaloes
 

Stan_Darsh72

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At the very worst Oliver will turn out to be a better Lenny Hayes (not as good looking though)

Top end of potential, who knows, Petracca is the big bodied bull mid like a fyfe, dusty and bont, the player who can pull something out of his arse and change a game in 5 mins.

Pretty handy midfield imo.
 
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WalshistheGOAT

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IMO Oliver's impact on games is underrated because he's usually at the start of the chain rather than the end of it. I don't think many had performances in 2021 that were comparable to Oliver's (first) game against Adelaide, he was massive. His strength is getting from contest to contest and winning the ball.

Trac is a little more like Dusty.

That we've got them both is ******* unreal and I go to bed sometimes thinking about how good it is that they both play for Melbourne Demons, even sometimes I dream of both of them pounding western blldogs into the dirt in the grand final, I'm cheering along and singing "grand old flag!", I always wake up really happy afterwards too.
I think Bailey Smiths grand final performance was equally as impactful as Oliver's game against the Crows. Was personally responsible for atleast 6 goals that game... 6 goals for the Dee's... but he played a huge part in that game lagging behind Langdon by 25m the whole second half 😉
 
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Stabby McGee

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I
early ninties: ablett, lockett, dunstall, carey, williams.

late nineties: carey, hird, voss, jarman, lockett, buckley

early 2000s: voss, hird, buckley, mcleod, riccuito, kouta, lloyd.

late 2000s ablett, judd, franklin, riewoldt, pavlich, brown.

early 2010s: ablett, franklin, fyfe,

late 2010s: dangerfield, martin, franklin, fyfe.

ealry 2020s current crop just no where near the above.
I think you forget just how much the game has changed even in the last 5 years (and yes I’m looking at you AFL rules committee).
Every generation has great players and it’s human nature to remember things from our youth as better and brighter.
I can see many 21-26 year olds from most teams that will be club and or AFL legends when the have finished up
 
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This. Greene and martin arent in the conversation.
B33BD6C6-695B-4F1F-B50B-84F90C5C6B95.jpeg
 

master bate

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Amazing how many posters who don’t agree with your narrow point of view are ‘ignore worthy’ FWIW Walsh played mostly on the wing in his second season.

How did Oliver poll in the Brownlow in his third season? I’ll give you the answer: It’s 13, 18 less than Walsh in his dominant third year.

Walsh finished 6th in the AFLCA voting in his third season, Oliver 8th in his third season.

Walsh is currently ahead at the same age.
I'll say Walsh is marginally ahead, no surprise given the way he came in far more ready, but those voting arguments don't hold up.

Gawn won the coaches award in 2018! For Oliver to finish 8th when the winner is in his own side taking max (pardon the pun) votes is a huge achievement.

Similarly Brayshaw finished 3rd in the Brownlow which was one of the great travesties. He clearly got a stack of Oliver's votes because Oliver was mouthy to the umps and Gus was friendly and wore a helmet. The Demons B+F had Oliver not too far behind Gawn and a mile ahead of Brayshaw.

Walsh playing so well in an ordinary side was a great effort but his umpires pet demeanor and number 1 pick status made him a monty for the sympathy votes in a losing side. Being the dominant player in a mid table team who's umpire friendly and recognisable has always been a recipe for Brownlow success. Woewodin used it to be Kouta for a Brownlow! Judd used it to win his second Brownlow when he was still great but a fraction of the player he was at his true prime at the Eagles.

Oliver was a bench mid in the All Aus team. Walsh got the token wing spot which is really the same thing for a non winger. So both were somewhere between the 4th and 8th best mid in the comp in their 3rd year.

Edit:


I'm looking at a leaderboard that has Oliver tied for 5th and equal 3rd best midfielder when you take out the 2 rucks.

Significantly less votes but that may represent that the game has become even more midfield dominant since 2018 or the coaches are on board with the Brownlow and going even more star heavy.
 

Trav 20

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I'll say Walsh is marginally ahead, no surprise given the way he came in far more ready, but those voting arguments don't hold up.

Gawn won the coaches award in 2018! For Oliver to finish 8th when the winner is in his own side taking max (pardon the pun) votes is a huge achievement.

Similarly Brayshaw finished 3rd in the Brownlow which was one of the great travesties. He clearly got a stack of Oliver's votes because Oliver was mouthy to the umps and Gus was friendly and wore a helmet. The Demons B+F had Oliver not too far behind Gawn and a mile ahead of Brayshaw.

Walsh playing so well in an ordinary side was a great effort but his umpires pet demeanor and number 1 pick status made him a monty for the sympathy votes in a losing side. Being the dominant player in a mid table team who's umpire friendly and recognisable has always been a recipe for Brownlow success. Woewodin used it to be Kouta for a Brownlow! Judd used it to win his second Brownlow when he was still great but a fraction of the player he was at his true prime at the Eagles.

Oliver was a bench mid in the All Aus team. Walsh got the token wing spot which is really the same thing for a non winger. So both were somewhere between the 4th and 8th best mid in the comp in their 3rd year.

Edit:


I'm looking at a leaderboard that has Oliver tied for 5th and equal 3rd best midfielder when you take out the 2 rucks.

Significantly less votes but that may represent that the game has become even more midfield dominant since 2018 or the coaches are on board with the Brownlow and going even more star heavy.
I've only just seen the NJ you're replying to for obvious reasons.

I note that the only metric they use when comparing the two is awards, which is useless when you're the only decent player anywhere near the midfield, which is where the majority of votes are garnished. So of course you become overly represented. Not a lot of competition at that club.

But I get why they don't reference statistics.

Because after 61 games Oliver had more disposals, contested possessions, clearances, tackles, and countless others.

Not only did Oliver win a B&F in his second year as a teenager, in his third season he was the only midfielder in the AFL to rate elite for disposals, contested possessions, intercept possessions, score involvements and tackles. He was 20.

At 19 in his second season he set the all-time record for ground-ball gets. He was no.1 in this stat again in 2021 surpassing his previous record.

It's fair to say I don't agree with your ''marginally ahead'' assessment, but each to their own.

Oliver is a bigger bodied inside bull.
 

Goomba1973

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I think there's a compelling argument that Petracca has shaded Bontempelli the last two years, but I understand your sentiment.

I suspect Bontempelli wins more from sustained performance over a longer period and general hype, but over the last two years combined Petracca's performance is more than a match.

Bontempelli has played 44 games to Petracca's 42 in that time.

Petracca averages more disposals (26.9-24.3), more marks (4.38-3.7), has kicked more goals (44-42 from 2 less games), more inside 50s (5.7-5.6), more score involvements (7.5-6.4), more metres gained (472-462), more marks inside 50 (0.9-0.68), and more contested possessions (13.4-10.6).

Bontempelli averages a fraction more goal assists (0.79-0.76) and clearances (5.4-5.3) and is well ahead on tackles (4.86-3.76). That's it.

So for disposals, marks, goals, and contested possessions Petracca has him covered while they're almost identical in clearances.

In the x-factor/brilliance metric they're similar with Petracca perhaps more the inside bull who bursts clear from stoppages.

For those that like their Brownlow stats (terrible way to judge) they both have 43 votes from 39 games over the last two years.
I have Oliver above Petra ( not by much) ...... He is the type of player that drags others with him., Oliver , Petra and Bont have all gone past Dusty.
 

Osho

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Christian Petracca is a goddamn beast. We've been waiting for his ascendance to a higher level for years. He has now arrived at the peak. He has the explosive power, lateral options, and skill, and did it on the big stage, he is a rare player. The lateral explosiveness is especially telling in the modern game, it breaks lines, tackles, creates opps from nothing. He's clearly the number 1 now.
 

Wazzy36

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I have to say Oliver, but it may just be my PTSD from his game against us. He was an absolute nightmare.
 

HavUEvaSeenTheRain

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I've only just seen the NJ you're replying to for obvious reasons.

I note that the only metric they use when comparing the two is awards, which is useless when you're the only decent player anywhere near the midfield, which is where the majority of votes are garnished. So of course you become overly represented. Not a lot of competition at that club.

But I get why they don't reference statistics.

Because after 61 games Oliver had more disposals, contested possessions, clearances, tackles, and countless others.

Not only did Oliver win a B&F in his second year as a teenager, in his third season he was the only midfielder in the AFL to rate elite for disposals, contested possessions, intercept possessions, score involvements and tackles. He was 20.

At 19 in his second season he set the all-time record for ground-ball gets. He was no.1 in this stat again in 2021 surpassing his previous record.

It's fair to say I don't agree with your ''marginally ahead'' assessment, but each to their own.

Oliver is a bigger bodied inside bull.

Yes Walsh isn’t as naturally prolific as guys like Mitchell and Oliver. He has also played on the outside more where there is less ball but hopefully with him continuing to build his body he should continue to improve. His second season was also with reduced game time which not only takes away 20% but also his biggest strength of over running opponents.
Comparing votes of two midfielders which usually favour players in stronger sides and should reflect their impact more makes sense and Walsh appears more dominant at this stage.

 

Fat Tony!

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I can't see Walsh ever being the best player in the AFL, let alone in 2022. He is too small and doesn't win enough contested ball. Being a great endurance runner is obviously a strength but this isn't the 90's anymore and is less important with rotations and zone defensive structures.
 

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HavUEvaSeenTheRain

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I can't see Walsh ever being the best player in the AFL, let alone in 2022. He is too small and doesn't win enough contested ball. Being a great endurance runner is obviously a strength but this isn't the 90's anymore and is less important with rotations and zone defensive structures.
Not unless he learns how to hit the scoreboard more often, probably in a similar fashion as Beams done.
 

Trav 20

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Comparing votes of two midfielders which usually favour players in stronger sides and should reflect their impact more makes sense and Walsh appears more dominant at this stage.
It's too simplistic to use voting in awards to determine the dominance of respective players. In the 2018 AFLCA award Oliver was competing with Gawn, who won, and was playing in a finals quality side.

But I'm not sure how you're deducing this ''dominance'' by Walsh.

1. Oliver won a B&F as a teen in his second year and Walsh won at 20 in his third. Is it more dominant in year three than year two ?

2. In 2018 Oliver had 4 players ahead of him in the coaches votes and this year Walsh had 5. I agree it means nothing, but I'm not sure it's more dominant to have more players beating you.

3. Oliver set an all-time AFL record for ground-ball gets in his second year. What all-time records does Walsh have ?

4. In 2018 Oliver was playing in a preliminary final. That year he was named in Melbourne's best 3 players in all 3 finals played. Pretty dominant from a team point of view. How does Walsh perform in finals ? He may or may not perform. We don't know. Oliver has continued by coming third in the coaches votes in this year's finals series, including third in the Norm Smith voting.

5. In 2018 Oliver had the most contested possessions for the season and the 6th most ever (he broke the record in 2021). Pretty dominant I would have thought.

At the 61 game mark Walsh has had less disposals (by over 100), less tackles, less clearances, and less contested possessions. And that's not an issue, because he's had a more outside role than Oliver, who's been at the coal-face from game one. But I'm not sure how it equates to more dominance. Fun fact: Oliver received Brownlow votes in his very first AFL game. But he probably mouths off too much to ever win.
 

HavUEvaSeenTheRain

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It's too simplistic to use voting in awards to determine the dominance of respective players. In the 2018 AFLCA award Oliver was competing with Gawn, who won, and was playing in a finals quality side.

But I'm not sure how you're deducing this ''dominance'' by Walsh.

1. Oliver won a B&F as a teen in his second year and Walsh won at 20 in his third. Is it more dominant in year three than year two ?

2. In 2018 Oliver had 4 players ahead of him in the coaches votes and this year Walsh had 5. I agree it means nothing, but I'm not sure it's more dominant to have more players beating you.

3. Oliver set an all-time AFL record for ground-ball gets in his second year. What all-time records does Walsh have ?

4. In 2018 Oliver was playing in a preliminary final. That year he was named in Melbourne's best 3 players in all 3 finals played. Pretty dominant from a team point of view. How does Walsh perform in finals ? He may or may not perform. We don't know. Oliver has continued by coming third in the coaches votes in this year's finals series, including third in the Norm Smith voting.

5. In 2018 Oliver had the most contested possessions for the season and the 6th most ever (he broke the record in 2021). Pretty dominant I would have thought.

At the 61 game mark Walsh has had less disposals (by over 100), less tackles, less clearances, and less contested possessions. And that's not an issue, because he's had a more outside role than Oliver, who's been at the coal-face from game one. But I'm not sure how it equates to more dominance. Fun fact: Oliver received Brownlow votes in his very first AFL game. But he probably mouths off too much to ever win.
Are you counting Walsh’s 17 shortened games? They also play different roles.

Mate Walsh plays for a very average side and has to compete against the opposition for votes which favour sides that win.
I imagine Walsh got about 30% more Brownlow and CA votes still.
 

Trav 20

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Are you counting Walsh’s 17 shortened games? They also play different roles.

Mate Walsh plays for a very average side and has to compete against the opposition for votes which favour sides that win.
I imagine Walsh got about 30% more Brownlow and CA votes still.
I mentioned the different roles in the post you quoted.

In years 2 and 3 Oliver was a dominant contested inside mid, but you seem to think Walsh had an edge in dominance.

Can you address points 1, 3 and 5 for me and explain why Walsh has been more dominant in his first 3 years.

I'll rehash them again for you.

1. Oliver won a B&F as a teen in his second year and Walsh won at 20 in his third. Is it more dominant in year three than year two ?

3. Oliver set an all-time AFL record for ground-ball gets in his second year. What all-time records does Walsh have ?

5. In 2018 Oliver had the most contested possessions for the season and the 6th most ever (he broke the record in 2021). Pretty dominant I would have thought.

All you seem to have his coaches and Brownlow votes.

To repeat, Oliver only had 4 players ahead of him in 2018 while Walsh had 5. And Oliver had Gawn winning the award, i.e. competition for votes.

And the Brownlow is a truly terrible metric when assessing players.

EDIT: anyway, others don't want to be bored by this crap.
 

HavUEvaSeenTheRain

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I mentioned the different roles in the post you quoted.

In years 2 and 3 Oliver was a dominant contested inside mid, but you seem to think Walsh had an edge in dominance.

Can you address points 1, 3 and 5 for me and explain why Walsh has been more dominant in his first 3 years.

I'll rehash them again for you.

1. Oliver won a B&F as a teen in his second year and Walsh won at 20 in his third. Is it more dominant in year three than year two ?

3. Oliver set an all-time AFL record for ground-ball gets in his second year. What all-time records does Walsh have ?

5. In 2018 Oliver had the most contested possessions for the season and the 6th most ever (he broke the record in 2021). Pretty dominant I would have thought.

All you seem to have his coaches and Brownlow votes.

To repeat, Oliver only had 4 players ahead of him in 2018 while Walsh had 5. And Oliver had Gawn winning the award, i.e. competition for votes.

And the Brownlow is a truly terrible metric when assessing players.

EDIT: anyway, others don't want to be bored by this crap.
So are you counting Walsh’s shortened games?

The reason I say he is more dominant is because he got 30% more Brownlow and CA votes. The two most prestigious awards.

Yes it took Walsh 3 years for a BandF after coming a close second in his second year.

Yes Oliver won a lot more possessions but I can’t tell you why the coaches thought he was less impactful but they just did :)
I imagine because he won the ball at a contest and just handballed it without causing any real hurt. His game has come on a bloody long way this season though.
 

Trav 20

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So are you counting Walsh’s shortened games?

The reason I say he is more dominant is because he got 30% more Brownlow and CA votes. The two most prestigious awards.

Yes it took Walsh 3 years for a BandF after coming a close second in his second year.

Yes Oliver won a lot more possessions but I can’t tell you why the coaches thought he was less impactful but they just did :)
I imagine because he won the ball at a contest and just handballed it without causing any real hurt. His game has come on a bloody long way this season though.
You should only take into account coaches votes from the same year. You gain nothing from comparing tallies in years apart.

It would be like saying Oliver was better in 2021 than Bontempelli in 2019 because he got more coaches votes. Who judges players on that criteria ?

You may as well not watch the season and judge players at year's end based on their Brownlow and coaches votes.

Btw, Oliver was a major reason we played finals in 2018, as evidenced by his second in the club's B&F that year.

In 2018 Melbourne received 93 combined Brownlow votes. Gawn and Brayshaw both had 20+.

In 2021 Carlton had a combined total of 52 votes. It was Walsh and daylight, because there was no-one to take votes off him. McKay and Cripps were 2 and 3 with 8 and 5 votes.

It's absurd to judge players based on Brownlow votes.

But I get it. You Carlton supporters were exactly the same with Cripps. Young players provide the hope we all need.
 

HavUEvaSeenTheRain

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You should only take into account coaches votes from the same year. You gain nothing from comparing tallies in years apart.

It would be like saying Oliver was better in 2021 than Bontempelli in 2019 because he got more coaches votes. Who judges players on that criteria ?

You may as well not watch the season and judge players at year's end based on their Brownlow and coaches votes.

Btw, Oliver was a major reason we played finals in 2018, as evidenced by his second in the club's B&F that year.

In 2018 Melbourne received 93 combined Brownlow votes. Gawn and Brayshaw both had 20+.

In 2021 Carlton had a combined total of 52 votes. It was Walsh and daylight, because there was no-one to take votes off him. McKay and Cripps were 2 and 3 with 8 and 5 votes.

It's absurd to judge players based on Brownlow votes.

But I get it. You Carlton supporters were exactly the same with Cripps. Young players provide the hope we all need.
Same amount of votes are given every year so it can show just how good a players season is. 30% is a lot.
Yes getting votes taken from players is no bigger issue then missing them because your side isn’t winning. Hence why Brayshaw got so many, his side is winning
 

HavUEvaSeenTheRain

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Love the quoting of midfield stats (including brownlow votes) as the only thing that matters
Opinions are subjective and sort of pointless considering how biased football fans are. I bet the ten best mids you rate in the AFL all do bloody well in the Brownlow but I’d say the CA award is much, much better
 

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Opinions are subjective and sort of pointless considering how biased football fans are. I bet the ten best mids you rate in the AFL all do bloody well in the Brownlow but I’d say the CA award is much, much better
Oliver in his 2nd season came 7th in the AFLCA award. The year he won the b&f, also won the AFLCA Young player of the year award. This is often over looked. Gawn missed most of that year too and Petracca hadn't come on yet. So in his second year he practically carried our midfield

How did Walsh fair in the award in 2020 or in your b&f?

Fwiw both have hit an elite level at an early age that is rarely seen. For Carltons sake hopefully awash stays at this level or even improves and doesn't turn into a Murphy mk2 who peaked very early and then regressed. As for Oliver he has had more time in the system to show he could go to an even higher level than he did after his third season.



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Stabby McGee

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Oliver in his 2nd season came 7th in the AFLCA award. The year he won the b&f, also won the AFLCA Young player of the year award. This is often over looked. Gawn missed most of that year too and Petracca hadn't come on yet. So in his second year he practically carried our midfield

How did Walsh fair in the award in 2020 or in your b&f?

Fwiw both have hit an elite level at an early age that is rarely seen. For Carltons sake hopefully awash stays at this level or even improves and doesn't turn into a Murphy mk2 who peaked very early and then regressed. As for Oliver he has had more time in the system to show he could go to an even higher level than he did after his third season.



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Don’t get Richmond. We won a flag and have a good team but it’s ok that other teams have guns too
 

HavUEvaSeenTheRain

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Oliver in his 2nd season came 7th in the AFLCA award. The year he won the b&f, also won the AFLCA Young player of the year award. This is often over looked. Gawn missed most of that year too and Petracca hadn't come on yet. So in his second year he practically carried our midfield

How did Walsh fair in the award in 2020 or in your b&f?

Fwiw both have hit an elite level at an early age that is rarely seen. For Carltons sake hopefully awash stays at this level or even improves and doesn't turn into a Murphy mk2 who peaked very early and then regressed. As for Oliver he has had more time in the system to show he could go to an even higher level than he did after his third season.



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Stil counting Walsh’s 17 shortened games?