Best Position

[Fred Ziffel]

I believe our best 22 under Harvey will for the most part be our best 22 under Lyon, with a few positional adjustments.



I know this is an attempted gotcha, but yes, Mayne should never have been lined up against players like Glass.

I think Lyon will improve us on Harvey but there are still a number of deficiencies at club level that prevent us from competing for a premiership. Despite the over the top praise on these boards I believe our recruiting and development is at best on par with the league average.

You seem to be a hard marker Clay.
It could also be said that if we are now on league Par / average , that we have attained that in essentially three drafts.

That rate of development is extraordinary.

Do you disagree that we are considered to have a list rated in the best 3 or four in the comp ?

 

[Clay Davis]

Do you disagree that we are considered to have a list rated in the best 3 or four in the comp ?

For sure. If our list was in that category, we would have had more depth in spite of injuries. And yes, we still would have lost a few games with those injuries. But we didn't just lose - we were annihilated by sides like Melbourne, North and Richmond, among others.

The really worrying thing was that even in our 'good' games, like against Port, Sydney and Gold Coast, there were periods of extremely poor play.

The club lost focus at the end of 2010. Recruitment, development, coaching appointments, etc were all not good enough. The great thing about the Lyon appointment is that the club has recognised its mistakes and been ruthless about fixing them. Hopefully that continues in all facets.

 

[Fred Ziffel]

The really worrying thing was that even in our 'good' games, like against Port, Sydney and Gold Coast, there were periods of extremely poor play.

I think this is the growing pains of such a young list. It is really the lesson learnt from these performances that determines our improvement.
Sadly, last season, those poor performances were merely consigned to the injuries excuse basket.
In reality it is the skill of the coach in how individuals modify their performance after losses like that.

It's fair to say that is the biggest change I am most looking forward to with Ross Lyon.

( late edit ; I agree we dropped the ball on coaching appointments going into 2011 . I disagree on recruitment/drafting tho ).

 

[Clay Davis]

The really worrying thing was that even in our 'good' games, like against Port, Sydney and Gold Coast, there were periods of extremely poor play.

I think this is the growing pains of such a young list. It is really the lesson learnt from these performances that determines our improvement.
Sadly, last season, those poor performances were merely consigned to the injuries excuse basket.
In reality it is the skill of the coach in how individuals modify their performance after losses like that.

It's fair to say that is the biggest change I am most looking forward to with Ross Lyon.

( late edit ; I agree we dropped the ball on coaching appointments going into 2011 . I disagree on recruitment/drafting tho ).

I take the young list point, but Melbourne were markedly younger in that match, and while I acknowledge that we were under duress with injuries, any semblance of fight would have put us closer on the scoreboard to that mentally fragile Melbourne team. Instead the entire side bar a few laid down.

It was probably the scariest loss in terms of the club's development, and was a real wakeup call. Thankfully it seems that the club heeded that call.

Nevertheless, I don't think the recruiting staff have done a good enough job. We're still too reliant on players over 28 to get the job done. This should have been the year when those smalls drafted in 2007/08 matured into being first call players for important positions in the midfield.

 

[BananaOnTheRun]

the recruiting has been fine, it's the coaching that's been lacking. that game against the dees was something like our third game at the G last year. we didn't seem to learn anything from playing there after each time when you'd expect us to. the entire side sat down because they didn't know how to play, where to play or what to play. barlow came back for his first game and by enthusiasm alone was our best on ground, then he blew up. that's poor coaching again. i would hope we see none of that next year.

 

[Patty_Moz]

Chopper Mayne is way better than his form of 2011. He had to have been injured.

I might be on my own here but I thought Mayne had a pretty good yr and I dont actually think he will ever be much more than what he showed this in 2011. Mayne lead our tackle count, equal leading goal kicker and top 5 in marks and was 10th in the B&F. As far as I'm concerned what Mayne produced this yr is what we need him to do but we need him to produce it consistently each yr.

I dont think Mayne will ever be a superstar and he has never done anything to suggest that he will be a 40-50 goal a season player I also dont think he needs to. What we need from him is to kick 20-30 goals each season and keep up his defensive pressure. We dont need him to be a superstar but we need him to play his defined position and with a good team structure that Lyon hopefully brings I think Mayne will be an important part of a successful team.

 

[BananaOnTheRun]

i reckon mayne could be as important to us as dawes is to collingwood. he won't be able to play the lead, but he'll have an important supporting role.

 

[Fred Ziffel]

Clay, you're not putting enough weight on the fact that our recruits from these past three drafts have had their development rushed. That is not ideal.

The injury handicap at Freo was just as bad in 2010 and in 2009.

Too many players were fast tracked and played before they were ready and probably contributed to injuries later.
Tim Ruffles is a perfect example of a player who was played before he should have and it has possibly cost him his career, certainly at freo.

A big issue for me is I think it was bordering on abuse to play Jayden Pitt this year.
if he was a cray , you'd be fined for not throwing him back.
I don't want to see him play for Freo this year. Let him develop in the WAFL for at least another season.

 

[sabre_ac]

Ballantyne: Leave him as is, forward that occasionally runs through the middle. I can't really fault the guy when you take into account his run with injuries.

Broughton: Midfielder, he's been good for us through there and he's too attacking minded to be left as a negating defender.

Hill: For the love of god not in the backline, leave him in the middle and teach the guys around him to block and get him involved more often.

Fyfe: Midfield, we need him as a marking option coming out of the backline

Suban: Midfield, his lethal foot again would be wasted down back. To be honest didn't think he was that good back there either.

DeBoer: Seemed to do his best work as a defensive forward, love his attack on the ball which consistently causes spillage.

Anthony: Back, game is no longer really suited to leading forwards. He showed enough down back to suggest that's where he plays if at all.

 

[theGav56]

Mayne should never have been lined up against players like Glass.

It is more than Mayne. Mayne would not have been FF if Anthony was trialled if Pavlich was in the forward line if Palmer was in the midfield. But those decisions seem toooo obvious.

 

[Clay Davis]

It is more than Mayne. Mayne would not have been FF if Anthony was trialled if Pavlich was in the forward line if Palmer was in the midfield. But those decisions seem toooo obvious.

Yeah, completely agree.

 

[prattsta]

And another thing, how come Prattsta is getting the Kudos for the line on Chopper leading away from Pav.

That was MY call.....Sheesh.

LOL. I think it's more to do with Gav simply responding to my comments - which were in support of your comments - rather than anyone giving me kudos.

I'll be honest though, you certainly deserve credit for raising it in this thread, but the idea of playing Mayne to his strengths - which oddly enough makes him an ideal HF - is hardly a revelation. Anyone who comments here and cringed every single mother effing time Mayne strolled on over to the goal square, would have mentioned it at some point in the last 18 months I reckon .

Mayne is probably the most notable example, but you would see the same thing happen with Ballantyne if he was stuck down in the FP, or even Suban if he got stuck in the BP, for extended periods. All of a sudden they're unable to do 74.6% of the stuff they're best at and they 'go missing.'

A big issue for me is I think it was bordering on abuse to play Jayden Pitt this year.
if he was a cray , you'd be fined for not throwing him back.
I don't want to see him play for Freo this year. Let him develop in the WAFL for at least another season.

Ross Lyon, won't even look at the magnet with PITT written on it once the season starts IMO. He'll probably need to have a massive pre-season and NAB cup before Lyon even gives him permission to train with the main squad.

Until players are ready to play the position they are best suited to, I don't think we'll see them much, if at all.

 

[Fred Ziffel]

Entirely in agreement Prattsta.

You obviously know what you are talking about.

 

[theGav56]

Ross Lyon, won't even look at the magnet with PITT written on it once the season starts IMO.

Especially if he starts the PS with sunburnt feet.

Personally I am not expecting Lyon to replicate what happened at Saints. But one thing I am looking forward to is seeing players in their best positions.

 

[jedi mind tricks]

Especially if he starts the PS with sunburnt feet.

Personally I am not expecting Lyon to replicate what happened at Saints. But one thing I am looking forward to is seeing players in their best positions.

Damm right.

Back to basics, players in their best positions and making sure the young kids are mature enough to be out there.

 

[prattsta]

Damm right.

Back to basics, players in their best positions and making sure the young kids are mature enough to be out there.

Yeah, I'm really hoping for a different approach under Lyon.

I copped a little bit of flak on here earlier in the year because I was critical of Michie. Particularly over all the love he was getting from a few games with decent numbers - one in particular was funny as he was absolutely torched head-to-head by Bradd freaking Dalzeill. Basically he was being made to play around the clearances at WAFL level and he was struggling. Say what you like about what you saw at games, or on TV, but it was a fact that Peel was worse around the stoppages (both defensively and offensively) whenever he was involved.

It wasn't a position we drafted him to play, it wasn't a role he was ready to play (even at WAFL level) and yet that was what he was being made/requested to play. Had he somehow managed to string some decent games together - unlikely given the role - where would he have played at AFL level? Inside mid? Not f'n likely.

Crichton was probably at the other end of the spectrum. He was playing really well through the midfield, across half-forward and attacking from half back at WAFL level. However, whenever he was brought up to play in the AFL what position did he play? Defensive half-back? Strange.

Young players need to develop, part of that development is senior football at AFL level. There needs to be some consistency with what is happening at WAFL level, versus what happens at AFL level though. Game time for the sake of it, doesn't necessarily benefit anyone.

 

[prattsta]

I'm really curious about everyone's thoughts on Lower heading into 2012. He's unavailable for the season opener, but other than that he is good enough to be a regular best 22. He almost certainly needs to play around the stoppages, but where exactly does that leave him?

B: Ibbotson - Silvagni - Duffield
HB: Broughton - McPharlin - Suban
C: Hill - Mundy - Morabito
HF: Mayne - Pavlich - Fyfe
F: Ballantyne - Anthony - Walters

R: Sandilands - Barlow - De Boer

I: McPhee - Clarke - Mzungu - Lower

I have him in the second tier midfield rotation which has him starting on the bench. I'm with Fred Ziffel regarding McPhee (bench) but that only leaves two spots and the substitute role which he really isn't suited to.

Given MDB can rotate through the forward-line - though I think I'm in the minority regarding De Boer's future being rather limited as a defensive HF - Lower could probably take his role in the starting line-up. That is about it though IMO.

Mellington and Walters should be fighting it out for a FP role. Ballantyne clearly has one all wrapped up.

Lower is hardly going to play FF and/or FB.

As already mentioned, he needs to be around the stoppages to be effective, that rules out the two BP positions. I'd expect them to be occupied by Duffield and Ibbotson?... Not sure I'd like that again unless the roles changed from last season though. If we bring in Davis and/or Dawson that will change things again.

One of Clarke and Griffin will almost certainly be playing regularly from either the FP or bench.

Mzungu probably gets a spot to rotate with Hill and Morabito and provide additional run off the bench as required. Mzungu would be wasted even more so than Lower as the substitute.

That probably leaves Suban looking the shakiest, but I think his best is superior to Lower's.

Is there actually a regular spot for him?

 

[Clay Davis]

though I think I'm in the minority regarding De Boer's future being rather limited as a defensive HF

I'm with you there. He should be groomed for midfield.

 

[BananaOnTheRun]

I'm really curious about everyone's thoughts on Lower heading into 2012. He's unavailable for the season opener, but other than that he is good enough to be a regular best 22. He almost certainly needs to play around the stoppages, but where exactly does that leave him?

Is there actually a regular spot for him?

i definitely think lower can be best 22 - he just needs to play more consistently. when he's good, he's very very good. think the wet swans game at the SCG and his last game this year against the pies. he's forgotten about during discussions about recruiting an in and under mid, but i think he can be this player and do it very well. his handballing and vision is superb, he's hard as nails, rarely loses his feet and has a knack for kicking goals at important times. dude can do it, he just needs to do it every game.

 

[Dr2Sheds]

i definitely think lower can be best 22 - he just needs to play more consistently. when he's good, he's very very good. think the wet swans game at the SCG and his last game this year against the pies. he's forgotten about during discussions about recruiting an in and under mid, but i think he can be this player and do it very well. his handballing and vision is superb, he's hard as nails, rarely loses his feet and has a knack for kicking goals at important times. dude can do it, he just needs to do it every game.

I'm with you there - IIRC his 'missing' games were when he was positioned down back? - he needs to be able to chase the footy around.

 

[Avid_Avenger]

I'm really curious about everyone's thoughts on Lower heading into 2012. He's unavailable for the season opener, but other than that he is good enough to be a regular best 22. He almost certainly needs to play around the stoppages, but where exactly does that leave him?

B: Ibbotson - Silvagni - Duffield
HB: Broughton - McPharlin - Suban
C: Hill - Mundy - Morabito
HF: Mayne - Pavlich - Fyfe
F: Ballantyne - Anthony - Walters

R: Sandilands - Barlow - De Boer

I: McPhee - Clarke - Mzungu - Lower

I have him in the second tier midfield rotation which has him starting on the bench. I'm with Fred Ziffel regarding McPhee (bench) but that only leaves two spots and the substitute role which he really isn't suited to.

Given MDB can rotate through the forward-line - though I think I'm in the minority regarding De Boer's future being rather limited as a defensive HF - Lower could probably take his role in the starting line-up. That is about it though IMO.

Mellington and Walters should be fighting it out for a FP role. Ballantyne clearly has one all wrapped up.

Lower is hardly going to play FF and/or FB.

As already mentioned, he needs to be around the stoppages to be effective, that rules out the two BP positions. I'd expect them to be occupied by Duffield and Ibbotson?... Not sure I'd like that again unless the roles changed from last season though. If we bring in Davis and/or Dawson that will change things again.

One of Clarke and Griffin will almost certainly be playing regularly from either the FP or bench.

Mzungu probably gets a spot to rotate with Hill and Morabito and provide additional run off the bench as required. Mzungu would be wasted even more so than Lower as the substitute.

That probably leaves Suban looking the shakiest, but I think his best is superior to Lower's.

Is there actually a regular spot for him?

Lower's effort vs the Pies with an already damaged shoulder highlighted how stupid it was to rely on Pav all year as the grunt midfielder. He's seriously tough and knows how to find the footy - hands and vision are great too. While decent on the flanks, he tends to get out of sync with the flow of the play.

He should run tag-team with MDB as our grunt inside mid which will allow Mundy and Barlow to be more creative too.

Lower is as wasted on the flanks as MDB is wasted as a tagger.

 

[prattsta]

He should run tag-team with MDB as our grunt inside mid which will allow Mundy and Barlow to be more creative too.

Lower is as wasted on the flanks as MDB is wasted as a tagger.

I agree that Lower is wasted on the flanks, however I disagree with De Boer being wasted as our negating player. Hard, fast, applies pressure around the contest, can win his own ball in close, big body, good hands and he's willing to work for his team-mates. Seems ideally suited to that role IMO.

I don't like the idea of a negating player simply shutting down his opponent and having no impact himself. Turning the game into a 17 v 17 contest is a waste of time these days. It's simply having more of a defensive focus, than a player focus. I'd still want him doing all the 1%ers, getting around 18-20 disposals, bringing our play makers into the game and generally just making life super difficult for his opponent. I'd say that would be playing to his strengths rather than wasting them.

 

[theGav56]

I don't like the idea of a negating player simply shutting down his opponent and having no impact himself. Turning the game into a 17 v 17 contest is a waste of time these days. It's simply having more of a defensive focus, than a player focus. I'd still want him doing all the 1%ers, getting around 18-20 disposals, bringing our play makers into the game and generally just making life super difficult for his opponent. I'd say that would be playing to his strengths rather than wasting them.

I think a pure negating player would be awesome, and I think either Lower or de Boer could do it. A 17 v 17 contest where we lose Lower and they lose Judd is a no brainer.

 

[Moo]

Entirely in agreement Prattsta.

You obviously know what you are talking about.

By George you will learn to love us all.

 

[prattsta]

I think a pure negating player would be awesome, and I think either Lower or de Boer could do it. A 17 v 17 contest where we lose Lower and they lose Judd is a no brainer.

I'd prefer a player that can have an impact himself, whilst limiting the impact of whoever he's on. Cameron Ling's performance in the GF is what I'm after.