Best Quicks production line: WI or SA?

[PhatBoy]

Got thinking a few nights back, from around 72-ish through to 01 when Walsh and Ambrose finished obviously the West Indies had a troupe of fast bowlers that was just unheard of at the time. Most thought it would never be rivalled again.

Australia has had attacks that compare, though a spinner was usually a part of that, and even at their peak it was rare for the Aussies to have 3 absolute gun quicks - usually 2 like McGrath and Gillespie and another very good one like Lee or Kasprowicz. As far as pace attacks go, there is a chance that the current one will actually be as good as any they’ve fielded in 30 years.

Because they haven’t quite dominated as a team in the same way the WI and Australia did (though they have been a very strong side for a long time before the last two years) I think it just gets taken for granted that their fast bowling production line is inferior. But gee I reckon it makes for a good comparison.


Donald
De Villiers
Pollock
Ntini
Steyn
Philander
Morkel
Rabada

All jets. At least 3 absolute A+ champions, possibly 4 depending on where Pollock rates.

Support cast of Kallis, Nel, Craig Matthews, McMillan, Abbott.
Ngidi could be anything.

In the case of Matthews and Abbott they didn’t get to play enough cricket to show fully what they could do. De Villiers as well to an extent though he still took nearly 90 wickets in his 19 tests.


West Indies era:
Roberts
Garner
Holding
Marshall
Croft
Walsh
Ambrose
Bishop

They’re the top liners for me. Marshall, Holding and Ambrose the absolute cream of the crop.
Great support cast of Clarke, Winston Benjamin, Kenny Benjamin, Patrick Patterson, Vanburn Holder etc.

I guess one difference you could argue is that the West Indies during their period had many, many potential gun bowlers who didn’t even get a shot. Franklyn Stephenson took nearly 1000 first class wickets and never played a test!

So who’s better?

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Windies by the length of Flemington.

 

[The Speaker]

The question asked in the title is different to the one in the post.

The answer to the title is South Africa, because theirs started in the 1960s and never stopped.

The answer to the post is the West Indies, because that collection of bowlers is better than the South African one put forward.

 

[PhatBoy]

Windies by the length of Flemington.

Because of?
Statistically there is very, very little between them.
Morkel is the weakest of the ‘frontliners’ across both sides but on figures alone the SA attack I think has a slight edge at the top end

 

[PhatBoy]

The question asked in the title is different to the one in the post.

The answer to the title is South Africa, because theirs started in the 1960s and never stopped.

The answer to the post is the West Indies, because that collection of bowlers is better than the South African one put forward.

I can’t put ten paragraphs into a thread title unfortunately.

SA post apartheid vs Windies 72-01.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Because of?
Statistically there is very, very little between them.
Morkel is the weakest of the ‘frontliners’ across both sides but on figures alone the SA attack I think has a slight edge at the top end

I don’t give a toss about what the stats say, stats are like mini skirts... they show you everything except the most important part

That list of West Indians is better than any array of fast bowlers any nation could muster. They were world no.1 and unbeaten for a decade thanks largely to their fast bowlers.

 

[The Speaker]

I can’t put ten paragraphs into a thread title unfortunately.

SA post apartheid vs Windies 72-01.

Is it fair to restrict South Africa to post-apartheid when they had so many great quicks beforehand?

 

[PhatBoy]

I don’t give a toss about what the stats say, stats are like mini skirts... they show you everything except the most important part

That list of West Indians is better than any array of fast bowlers any nation could muster. They were world no.1 and unbeaten for a decade thanks largely to their fast bowlers.

The SA team of 07-16 lost twice, but actually boasted a better win ratio, than the Windies at their peak.

I’m not disagreeing with you by the way. I just think it is a worthy discussion. Especially given the era in which SA has done most of their producing - ie. a more batsman friendly one.

 

[PhatBoy]

Is it fair to restrict South Africa to post-apartheid when they had so many great quicks beforehand?

Well Donald and De Villiers (save for provincially) didn’t really play with any the quicks that came before, whereas Donald played with pollock who played with Ntini who played with Steyn who played with philander who played with Rabada etc. I linked it that way. Plus the time frames more or less match. 29 years WI/27 years SA.

 

[The Speaker]

Well Donald and De Villiers (save for provincially) didn’t really play with any the quicks that came before, whereas Donald played with pollock who played with Ntini who played with Steyn who played with philander who played with Rabada etc. I linked it that way.

Donald played with Clive Rice for South Africa.

Plus the time frames more or less match. 29 years WI/27 years SA.

Now that's a scary thought. Has time really moved so quickly?

 

[PhatBoy]

Donald played with Clive Rice for South Africa.



Now that's a scary thought. Has time really moved so quickly?

Not in tests he didn’t.

And yeah it’s come around pretty bloody quickly hasn’t it?

 

[Gough]

Clive Rice captained the three one dayers against India and that was it which was a shame. The early 90s were a bit of a trip geo politically speaking. Pre WWI countries were reappearing all over the Europe and South Africa were finally getting their s**t together, it was an exiting time.

 

[Kram]

I don’t give a toss about what the stats say, stats are like mini skirts... they show you everything except the most important part

That list of West Indians is better than any array of fast bowlers any nation could muster. They were world no.1 and unbeaten for a decade thanks largely to their fast bowlers.

Not saying you are wrong but how much of that West Indian bowling from back in the day did you watch yourself?

 

[Woody15]

They’re the top liners for me. Marshall, Holding and Ambrose the absolute cream of the crop.
Great support cast of Clarke, Winston Benjamin, Kenny Benjamin, Patrick Patterson, Vanburn Holder etc.

I guess one difference you could argue is that the West Indies during their period had many, many potential gun bowlers who didn’t even get a shot. Franklyn Stephenson took nearly 1000 first class wickets and never played a test!

So who’s better?

Add Wayne Daniel and Winston Davis to that support cast.

What ever happened to Tony Gray Phatboy? I remember him taking a heap of wickets against us in an ODI series?

 

[PhatBoy]

Add Wayne Daniels and Winston Davis to that support cast.

What ever happened to Tony Gray Phatboy? I remember him taking a heap of wickets against us in an ODI series?

His brief international career was before my time - though he played domestically well into the 90s I think - but seems as though he just never got a start ahead of the other guys that were behind Walsh and Ambrose. A fit Bishop was also a walk-up. Bishop is the great unknown of that entire group. He could have been absolutely anything.

 

[Gough]

I still rate that mid 80s Lloyd captained side as being as good as anything we've produced recently. Aside from wall to wall champions in the team Lloyd was a damn fine captain, Richards was never the captain he was.

 

[Woody15]

Nantie Hayward was pretty quick for SA as well. Fell off the face of the earth..

 

[eth-dog]

Right now it would be the West Indies, however I would suggest that South Africa, if they continue on their trajectory, will be just as good.

 

[PhatBoy]

I wonder how the likes of De Freitas, Malcolm and Small would have fared if they were fostered right through the West Indies system?

 

[Gough]

I wonder how the likes of De Freitas, Malcolm and Small would have fared if they were fostered right through the West Indies system?

Syd Lawrence was another, he could be quick, and he was just coming good when he had that horrible injury in NZ.

 

[James Colorado]

The SA team of 07-16 lost twice, but actually boasted a better win ratio, than the Windies at their peak.

I’m not disagreeing with you by the way. I just think it is a worthy discussion. Especially given the era in which SA has done most of their producing - ie. a more batsman friendly one.

Your last point. Steyn in the 70s & 80s. Already has one of the greatest records, but imagine him with longer boundaries, smaller bats, and less padding (with that killer attitude he has). He'd average sub-20.

 

[PhatBoy]

Your last point. Steyn in the 70s & 80s. Already has one of the greatest records, but imagine him with longer boundaries, smaller bats, and less padding (with that killer attitude he has). He'd average sub-20.

This. The only remote thing counting against him is that he has a relatively high economy rate - which you could fairly safely assume would drop a far bit in the 80s

 

[James Colorado]

This. The only remote thing counting against him is that he has a relatively high economy rate - which you could fairly safely assume would drop a far bit in the 80s

Despite being a (very average at best) leg-spinner myself, my favourite thing in cricket is that killer attitude the very best quicks have. Steyn has it in spades. Makes me think of what it must have been like growing up watching Lillee/Thomson. Absolutely love him.

 

[PhatBoy]

Despite being a (very average at best) leg-spinner myself, my favourite thing in cricket is that killer attitude the very best quicks have. Steyn has it in spades. Makes me think of what it must have been like growing up watching Lillee/Thomson. Absolutely love him.

Mate I’m exactly the same. I played a hybrid grade for us this summer because my knee is f***ed. You have to have at least 4 under 18s and at least 4 adults. We played 4 adults, 7 kids. One of our openers I’ve already implored the selectors to just dumb him in first grade next year (he’s 15) for that exact reason. He’s got crazy eyes, looks angry when he runs in, his run up is absolute full pace, and he bounces anyone, young or old, who hits him for 4. It’s f***ing beautiful to watch!