Best small forward of all time?

[Procrastinator35]

Kevin Bartlett only spent a few years as a small forward, in his 30s, and laps everyone. 81 goals in a premiership year, including 21 in 3 finals, including 7 in the granny. One of the best rovers of all time, peerless as a small forward.

Daicos was a medium forward and even played full forward at times. He shits on everyone else in this poll. Genius.

Peerless in a clear second place sense, Yes....Tis Barney who has the Bradman-esque like record here, so far as goal-kicking smalls are concerned.....91 goals in a season in 1977 as the first rover- come resting small forward....He's also kicked more finals goals than Hungry at 72 compared to 62. Though admittedly from 2 more finals played....But at a better average of 2.47 per game as compared to 2.3 by Hungry.

Don't get me wrong, I'd still have KB as the first rover in the team of the century, due to his being more the true rover in the purest sense of that role....But I'd definitely have Barney closer to the sticks, as he has a way superior goal-kicking record to Bartlett & was far more dangerous in that role.....That doesn't make him the second-string rover by any stretch....It marks him out as the most dangerous small forward around goals, in the games history.

 

[richoatthedisco]

Peerless in a clear second place sense, Yes....Tis Barney who has the Bradman-esque like record here, so far as goal-kicking smalls are concerned.....91 goals in a season in 1977 as the first rover- come resting small forward....He's also kicked more finals goals than Hungry at 72 compared to 62. Though admittedly from 2 more finals played....But at a better average of 2.47 per game as compared to 2.3 by Hungry.

Don't get me wrong, I'd still have KB as the first rover in the team of the century, due to his being more the true rover in the purest sense of that role....But I'd definitely have Barney closer to the sticks, as he has a way superior goal-kicking record to Bartlett & was far more dangerous in that role.....That doesn't make him the second-string rover by any stretch....It marks him out as the most dangerous small forward around goals, in the games history.

If you're going purely on height, I agree. Matthews played more as a key forward though, remarkable for his size.

 

[Procrastinator35]

If you're going purely on height, I agree. Matthews played more as a key forward though, remarkable for his size.

Hungry 177cm....Barney 178cm....The difference is all in the weight & the build, I would have thought. Barney was closer to 90kgs, while KB was 70kgs wringing wet.

Also, Barney kicked his 91 goals in 1977 with Hudson kicking 110 as the Full Forward, with Alan Martello playing at centre half forward....Barney also kicked 71 in both 1976 & 1978 with Michael Glady's Moncrieff playing as the full forward.....In fact, Moncrieff was the designated full forward at Hawthorn until half way through the 1983 season.....Only then did Barney take on that role full-time under Jeans.

When Hudson went down with his knee in 1972, Peter Knights played as the replacement full forward that year, until Moncrieff took over from him in 1973, with Knights going to CHB.....When Hudson came back for his cameo season in 1977, Moncrieff played in a back pocket alongside Kelvin Moore.

So Barney only ever played as the key forward for 2 seasons....Even in 1985, his final season, he had Jason Dunstall learning the ropes alongside of him.

 

[Wallaby]

Bartlett kicked his 84 goals in 1980 when Roach kicked 112 and they had Cloke at CHF (he kicked 47).

The biggest statistical difference between Bartlett and Matthews was marking - When Matthews kicked his 91, he took 133 Marks. In the year Bartlett kicked 84, he had 61 marks (admittedly, Matthews was playing more on ball at the time - he had almost 200 more possessions than Bartlett on the season).

I guess a forward line of Matthews as Key forward and Bartlett at his feet would be pretty frightening....................

 

[Procrastinator35]

Bartlett kicked his 84 goals in 1980 when Roach kicked 112 and they had Cloke at CHF (he kicked 47).

The biggest statistical difference between Bartlett and Matthews was marking - When Matthews kicked his 91, he took 133 Marks. In the year Bartlett kicked 84, he had 61 marks (admittedly, Matthews was playing more on ball at the time - he had almost 200 more possessions than Bartlett on the season).

I guess a forward line of Matthews as Key forward and Bartlett at his feet would be pretty frightening....................

I'd rather have them as the 1/2 rover combo.....Hard to choose between Coleman & Hudson as the Full Forward though.....Maybe Lockett has an argument in there too.

There's no doubt that both Barney & KB stand head & shoulders above the pack when it comes to goal-kicking midfielders.

But Yes, Matthews was far stronger in the air than KB ever was, whereas KB's strength lay in his dual running ability of a pace/endurance combo.....Not to mention his ability to read the ball off the back of a pack better than anyone else I've seen play the game....Platten had that same ability too.

Barney was indeed our number one Rover throughout his peak years between 1975-1978, after Crimmins fell ill in 1975 & eventually succumbed to his cancer....Doubt any player will ever match the feats of Matthews 1977 season, from a midfielder/goalkicking statistical perspective....Too bad his wayward goal-kicking against the Pies in the Second Semi that year cost us the Flag.....His 3 goals 6 behinds was the principal reason we lost by 4 points that day....He made up for it in the following seasons finals series though. Where he cemented his reputation as the clear number 1 player right across the competition.

But as a key forward?....As stated earlier, only from the second half of 1983 & for all of 1984 could that be said of Matthews, with Bunghole coming along for the ride in 1985....Shall we kick it to Fred or Barney?...Of course, Dermott was the centre half forward, but also filled in at full forward when required. (See the 1985 Grand Final for instance.)

Barney had a dip in form & was injury riddled for the 1979 & 1980 seasons.....Only once Alan Jeans came along in 1981, did his stints up forward become more prolonged & pronounced....However, whenever we required a spark in the midfield, he was still the go-to man for it....1982 was likely his last elite season so far as a midfield role went...and even then it was more a 50/50 split, with the second half of quarters spent up forward most of the time, once Loveridge arrived on the scene to help out Tuck & Wallace in the midfield.

 

[beta_condition]

Generational at a guess.....Alot of posters are likely too young to recall some of the others.

Betts clearly the best small forward of the current players.

Maybe the best but certainly not clearly the best, marginal difference between him and Breust.

 

[footyfan1978]

Mike Sheehan just listed his top 5 small forwards of all time, it was a lot closer then I expected. His 5 were;

Eddie Betts: 250 games, 469 goals*

Stephen Milne: 274 games, 574 goals

Jeff Farmer: 249 games, 483 goals

Peter Daicos: 250 games, 549 goals

Phill Matera: 179 games, 389 goals

*= still playing

Mike has lost it. All time, give me a spell.

Best of last 20 years only, Eddie.
Of all time, he not in the running.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Mike has lost it. All time, give me a spell.

Best of last 20 years only, Eddie.
Of all time, he not in the running.

In fact, Betts has the worse goal-kicking average per game of all 5 of those players listed.

 

[footyfan1978]

In fact, Betts has the worse goal-kicking average per game of all 5 of those players listed.

If he played in Farmer and Milne era without the ultra flooding he would have a better one than those two. He's done about as well as could be expected in this era of forward line often with 30 players in close proximity. I rate him better than those two. Not in same class as Daicos, Bartlett or Leigh Matthews that set the standard of how much of a match winner you need to be as a smaller forward. Brownlow Medallist Gerard Healy I also think kicked over 70 goals in a season playing as a smaller forward when he started out at Melbourne. Turned himself into a gun midfielder at Swans and left his forward days behind. Opposite career path to Bartlett and Lethal Leigh that turned themselves into match winning smaller forward as they got near 30. Gary Ablett has his chance to play a season up near their level but he probably doing it 3 years too late to be known in same class as them as small forwards.

 

[brutus76]

Leigh Matthews > daylight