Best small forward of all time?

[Lethality]

Cyril Rioli is probably the ultimate small forward as he ran both ways, and was so efficient inside the forward third. Elite with goal assists as well as goals. Ironically for a celebrated player, much of his value to a team was overlooked.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Yeah you're not the only one who has been around longer than 5 minutes. He may not have played as conventionally as others but he also was the key focal point for any number of years. Just because he was one of the best at the dribbly goals that are now common place, doesn't mean he didn't get his share of goals as all forwards did. Most of his snaps were great one on one battles where he outpointed his opponent but not necessarily the front and centre at pace that we see from the small forwards either.

He's what I would call a genuine HFF/medium forward who played key forward at times and on ball at others.

Makes him a super star in his ability to do a bit of everything I guess, but I'm never really coming around to him being considered a small forward.

He was the key forward play-maker & target in the Magpies line-up yes, in the same way Barney was in ours, before Dermie & Dunstall came on the scene....I'm not seeing anyone accuse Matthews of being a tall forward, even though he was closer to that role than what Daicos ever was.....As Barney is want to say himself....He was for all intents & purposes a 178cm Centre half Forward, who just got stuck playing on the ball due to his abilities & height - or lack thereof - & then as the key forward option later on in his career.

Matthews was 6cm shorter than Daicos, though he was closer to a key marking forward target role than Daicos ever was.....Probably due in no small way, to his bulldozer build....See how height can be irrelevant.....Daicos was a way smaller build than Barney in every sense of the word, other than in height, which is merely one measure among many when it comes to classifications.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Cyril Rioli is probably the ultimate small forward as he ran both ways, and was so efficient inside the forward third. Elite with goal assists as well as goals. Ironically for a celebrated player, much of his value to a team was overlooked.

As magical as Sizzle was, he was simply too injury prone & did not play enough games nor kick enough goals to be a serious contender in this convo.

 

[Lethality]

As magical as Sizzle was, he was simply too injury prone & did not play enough games nor kick enough goals to be a serious contender in this convo.

I prefer a holistic appraisal of these small forwards rather than just goals kicked. We do that for other positions, such as CHF, should be the case for small forwards too.

 

[Wallaby]

He was the key forward play-maker & target in the Magpies line-up yes, in the same way Barney was in ours, before Dermie & Dunstall came on the scene....I'm not seeing anyone accuse Matthews of being a tall forward, even though he was closer to that role than what Daicos ever was.

Matthews was probably the 'Key Forward' for the Hawks only from 82 onwards. Before that, he used to play small forward to Hudson and then Moncrief. Even the year he was League leading goal kicker with 68, Moncrief kicked 57.

Matthews was incredible in that he could still play that role later in his career. He could always play as a marking forward, because anyone who was agile enough to keep up with him wasn't strong enough, and anyone who was strong enough was too slow.

Matthews averaged 4.55 marks per game - pretty much his entire career. Bartlettt averaged 2.7 - so did Daicos.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Matthews was probably the 'Key Forward' for the Hawks only from 82 onwards. Before that, he used to play small forward to Hudson and then Moncrief. Even the year he was League leading goal kicker with 68, Moncrief kicked 57.

Matthews was incredible in that he could still play that role later in his career. He could always play as a marking forward, because anyone who was agile enough to keep up with him wasn't strong enough, and anyone who was strong enough was too slow.

Matthews averaged 4.55 marks per game - pretty much his entire career. Bartlettt averaged 2.7 - so did Daicos.

While it's true that Barney certainly was quick off the mark, due in no small measure to his early career sprint training, he was never fast over any real distance by any stretch of the imagination....What got him out of trouble on most occasions, was his phenomenal agility, owing to his low centre of gravity & those tree trunk legs.....His strength to break tackles was also a major factor early on in his career.....His instinct & nose for goal was his defining characteristic to my way of thinking.....Something which both he & Bartlett shared in common.....His ability to find another gear when the game was on the line, was the mark of what I'd term a champion of the game.....Put simply, he was a match-winner.

And for a 'little fella', he was a phenomenally strong mark above his head....Possibly Brad Johnson of Footscray comes to mind as the closest contemporary comparison, in that respect.

 

[Procrastinator35]

I prefer a holistic appraisal of these small forwards rather than just goals kicked. We do that for other positions, such as CHF, should be the case for small forwards too.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan; & rate him as the most exiting player to watch that I've ever seen to don the Brown & Gold.....Buddy included.

But goals & lots of em are what marks you out as the best of the best in this position, over time....So for that reason, I find it strange how Brad Johnson is not in the poll proper or the conversation at all.

 

[Lethality]

But goals & lots of em are what marks you out as the best of the best in this position, .

Yeah I think we disagree fundamentally. Particularly these days, raw stats like goals are less important than how they are obtained. It's why Josh Jenkins has to work on his contested marking more than how many goals he kicks.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Yeah I think we disagree fundamentally. Particularly these days, raw stats like goals are less important than how they are obtained. It's why Josh Jenkins has to work on his contested marking more than how many goals he kicks.

So much for 3 & 20 then, aye!

 

[Lethality]

So much for 3 & 20 then, aye!

Well I set that knowing that Leigh won his own ball, and used it well.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Well I set that knowing that Leigh won his own ball, and used it well.

Barney always was see ball, get ball, kick it through the big sticks.....It's a mind-set that kind of defines the small forward role.

 

[Lethality]

Barney always was see ball, get ball, kick it through the big sticks.....It's a mind-set that kind of defines the small forward role.

I would say defensive pressure particularly these days and goal assists are just as important. There's many ways to be a small forward.

 

[Procrastinator35]

I would say defensive pressure particularly these days and goal assists are just as important. There's many ways to be a small forward.

Barney wouldn't know what defensive pressure was....He probably provided more than he kicked though, from out of the middle in his hey days....The 5 goals Derm kicked on debut in the 1982 Semi Final against North, were all put on a platter for him by Barney out of the middle.

 

[PAFC27]

 

[Procrastinator35]

View attachment 659087

No....He might be the greatest indigenous small forward of all time, however.

 

[Benny78]

Only one I can think of is Milne but surely there's someone better from the old days

 

[detox]

As magical as Sizzle was, he was simply too injury prone & did not play enough games nor kick enough goals to be a serious contender in this convo.

Maybe on the games front. But disagree on the goals. Wayne Carey kicked less goals than Sav Rocca, let alone plenty that hes rated higher than.

Rioli had everyone covered outside of goals, and would have kicked more if he wasnt frustratingly unselfish. I remember a game where Rioli didnt kick a goal but had 15 tackles.

Would have created so many more goals for his team mates. GOAT at fwd pressure, unbeatable 1 on 1 and in a contested situation. Never beat up on bottom teams or cared about his numbers, performed and starred in big games and big moments consistently from his first season.

This whole overrated Rioli mindset is so far off the mark. He was a star.

The only question on him would be longevity and his Injuries, but even doing a hammy or 2 every year he would perform.





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[Procrastinator35]

The permanent small forward role of the ilk of Milne & Betts, is only really a recent phenomenon....In days of yore, the small forward was predominantly the resting rover & the second rover, who shared the rotations on the ball....Similarly with resting rucks, who would often rotate out of the pocket or at centre half forward....Simon Madden was clearly the best goal-kicking resting ruckman - come key position forward - there ever was.

The cream of the small resting on-ballers - when it came to kicking goals - were the likes of Matthews, Bartlett & Daicos….So good were these 3 at kicking goals in fact, that they became permanent forwards towards the end of their careers...Indeed, in both Barney & Daicos's cases, they were the go-to forward of note. Which - when it comes to small forwards - was previously unheard of....Brad Johnson is the only other small forward I can think of who also shared that honour, as the number 1 go-to forward, for a small.

Leigh Matthews kicked 915 goals averaging 2.76 goals per match over 17 seasons & 332 games.....When you consider that he was the first rover for most of his career, that's a fairly phenomenal strike rate.

Kevin Bartlett kicked 778 goals averaging 1.93 goals per match over 19 seasons & 403 games.

Eddie Betts (PF) has kicked 575 goals averaging 1.92 goals per game over 15 seasons & 300 games thus far.

Stephen Milne kicked (PF) 574 goals averaging 2.09 goals per game over 13 seasons & 275 games.

Brad Johnson kicked 558 goals averaging 1.53 goals per game over 17 seasons & 364 games.

Peter Daicos kicked 549 goals averaging 2.2 goals per game over 15 seasons & 250 games.

Dick Harris (PF) kicked 548 goals averaging 2.8 goals per game over 11 seasons & 196 gmes.

Jeff Farmer (PF) kicked 483 goals averaging 1.94 goals per game over 14 seasons & 249 games.

Bill Hutchison kicked 496 goals averaging 1.71 goals per game over 16 seasons & 290 games.....Mainly as the second rover to Dick Reynolds.

Paul Hudson (PF) kicked 479 goals averaging 1.96 goals per game over 13 seasons & 245 games.

Garry Wilson kicked 452 goals averaging 1.69 goals per game over 13 seasons & 268 games.

Dick Reynolds kicked 442 goals averaging 1.38 goals per game over 18 seasons & 320 games.

Allan Ruthven kicked 442 goals averaging 1.99 goals per game over 14 seasons & 222 games.

Lou Richards kicked 423 goals averaging 1.69 goals per game over 15 seasons & 250 games.

Jason Ackermanis kicked 421 goals averaging 1.3 goals per game over 16 seasons & 325 games.....Not even at the races this lad....So, so over-rated.

Bob Skilton kicked 412 goals averaging 1.74 goals per game over 15 seasons & 237 games.

Mark Lecras (PF) kicked 409 goals averaging 2.09 goals per game over 12 seasons & 196 games.

Phil Matera (PF) kicked 389 goals averaging 2.17 goals per game over 10 seasons & 179 games.

That's the Top 17 smalls in VFL/AFL history to have kicked 400 goals or more (Matera was in the poll, so he was added), with only 7 of them (Harris, Betts, Milne, Farmer, Hudson, LeCras & Matera) playing as permanent small forwards.

The permanent forwards tend to have a better strike-rate & superior goal-kicking % than the resting small on-ballers.....But not always.

 

[Cold Sober]

Come on, Eddie Betts, you're kidding me. How do people come up with this s**t.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Come on, Eddie Betts, you're kidding me. How do people come up with this s**t.

Generational at a guess.....Alot of posters are likely too young to recall some of the others.

Betts clearly the best small forward of the current players.

 

[Wallaby]

The permanent small forward role of the ilk of Milne & Betts, is only really a recent phenomenon....In days of yore, the small forward was predominantly the resting rover & the second rover, who shared the rotations on the ball....Similarly with resting rucks, who would often rotate out of the pocket or at centre half forward....Simon Madden was clearly the best goal-kicking resting ruckman - come key position forward - there ever was.

The cream of the small resting on-ballers - when it came to kicking goals - were the likes of Matthews, Bartlett & Daicos….So good were these 3 at kicking goals in fact, that they became permanent forwards towards the end of their careers...Indeed, in both Barney & Daicos's cases, they were the go-to forward of note. Which - when it comes to small forwards - was previously unheard of....Brad Johnson is the only other small forward I can think of who also shared that honour, as the number 1 go-to forward, for a small.

Leigh Matthews kicked 915 goals averaging 2.76 goals per match over 17 seasons & 332 games.....When you consider that he was the first rover for most of his career, that's a fairly phenomenal strike rate.

Kevin Bartlett kicked 778 goals averaging 1.93 goals per match over 19 seasons & 403 games.

Eddie Betts (PF) has kicked 575 goals averaging 1.92 goals per game over 15 seasons & 300 games thus far.

Stephen Milne kicked (PF) 574 goals averaging 2.09 goals per game over 13 seasons & 275 games.

Brad Johnson kicked 558 goals averaging 1.53 goals per game over 17 seasons & 364 games.

Peter Daicos kicked 549 goals averaging 2.2 goals per game over 15 seasons & 250 games.

Jeff Farmer (PF) kicked 483 goals averaging 1.94 goals per game over 14 seasons & 249 games.

Bill Hutchison kicked 496 goals averaging 1.71 goals per game over 16 seasons & 290 games.....Mainly as the second rover to Dick Reynolds.

Paul Hudson (PF) kicked 479 goals averaging 1.96 goals per game over 13 seasons & 245 games.

Garry Wilson kicked 452 goals averaging 1.69 goals per game over 13 seasons & 268 games.

Dick Reynolds kicked 442 goals averaging 1.38 goals per game over 18 seasons & 320 games.

Allan Ruthven kicked 442 goals averaging 1.99 goals per game over 14 seasons & 222 games.

Lou Richards kicked 423 goals averaging 1.69 goals per game over 15 seasons & 250 games.

Jason Ackermanis kicked 421 goals averaging 1.3 goals per game over 16 seasons & 325 games.....Not even at the races this lad....So, so over-rated.

Bob Skilton kicked 412 goals averaging 1.74 goals per game over 15 seasons & 237 games.

Mark Lecras (PF) kicked 409 goals averaging 2.09 goals per game over 12 seasons & 196 games.

Phil Matera (PF) kicked 389 goals averaging 2.17 goals per game over 10 seasons & 179 games.

That's the Top 17 smalls in VFL/AFL history to have kicked 400 goals or more (Matera was in the poll, so he was added), with only 6 of them (Betts, Milne, Farmer, Hudson, LeCras & Matera) playing as permanent small forwards.

The permanent forwards tend to have a better strike-rate & superior goal-kicking % than the resting small on-ballers.....But not always.

You might want to consider Dick Harris. 548 Goals in 196 games. That's 2.80 goals per game. Played between 1934-44.

Only 5'7 tall (171 cms). He always played second fiddle to Jack Titus. Despite that, he won the Richmond goalkicking himself 3 times, and was League Leading goalkicker in 1937 (possibly the shortest ever to win). He played in 4 GFs - kicking 3,5,3 and 7 goals respectively (so he turned up when it mattered).

At age 33, he went to Willy in the VFA and formed a combination with Ron Todd where they kicked 430 goals between them over 2 years. he then became a Richmond reserves coach, and was forced to pull on the boots to fill in at a game when he was 42. Dick Harris kicked a lazy 4.

 

[Procrastinator35]

You might want to consider Dick Harris. 548 Goals in 196 games. That's 2.80 goals per game. Played between 1934-44.

Only 5'7 tall (171 cms). He always played second fiddle to Jack Titus. Despite that, he won the Richmond goalkicking himself 3 times, and was League Leading goalkicker in 1937 (possibly the shortest ever to win). He played in 4 GFs - kicking 3,5,3 and 7 goals respectively (so he turned up when it mattered).

At age 33, he went to Willy in the VFA and formed a combination with Ron Todd where they kicked 430 goals between them over 2 years. he then became a Richmond reserves coach, and was forced to pull on the boots to fill in at a game when he was 42. Dick Harris kicked a lazy 4.

Cheers for that....Might have to include Jack Titus too n all, given he too was all of 175cm tall.

The fact is that we humans have been getting progressively taller on average of 10cms over the past 100 years alone.....When Bob Pratt played in 1930, the key forwards were mostly between 180-183cms....Titus, at a mere 175cm's, was actually way over the average height back then, which was under 170cm's....Today 180cm's is considered the Oz norm for males.

 

[juss]

Betts is probably the best for me, but I'm aware theres a bit of recency bias attached to it. Still, his record stacks up fairly well against the pure small forwards.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Betts is probably the best for me, but I'm aware there's a bit of recency bias attached to it. Still, his record stacks up fairly well against the pure small forwards.

Has just over-taken Milne on the goal-kicking tally, though Milne played 25 games fewer for the same tally.

Actually, of the 7 blokes listed above who played as permanent small, stay at home forwards, Betts has the worst goal-kicking average of the lot.....Go figure.

 

[richoatthedisco]

Kevin Bartlett only spent a few years as a small forward, in his 30s, and laps everyone. 81 goals in a premiership year, including 21 in 3 finals, including 7 in the granny. One of the best rovers of all time, peerless as a small forward.

Daicos was a medium forward and even played full forward at times. He shits on everyone else in this poll. Genius.