Moved Thread Best term to refer to Essendon's 2012-2016 scandal?

(Log in to remove this ad.)

the_interloper

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 1, 2006
14,363
12,765
Melbourne
AFL Club
Richmond
Well you have to be tested to provide this information which at the time was optional - Only 21 players were tested during this period - Anyway continue to show your ignorance.
Hang on, it was optional for the players to provide info about those dodgy off site injections? Is that true?
 

the_interloper

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 1, 2006
14,363
12,765
Melbourne
AFL Club
Richmond
Off site injections are irrelevant to the WADA Code in which the AFL is a signatory - I'll return to this thread in five years and you'll still show your lack of understanding of the situation.
So educate me oh Kool aid drinker... ah I mean knowledgeable one. So they aren't required to report to ASADA testers all medication they have been on? I thought this would include even cold and flu tablets etc?
 

yaco55

Hall of Famer
Jul 25, 2007
35,768
12,204
hong kong
AFL Club
Essendon
So educate me oh Kool aid drinker... ah I mean knowledgeable one. So they aren't required to report to ASADA testers all medication they have been on? I thought this would include even cold and flu tablets etc?
At the time in 2012 it was optional whether athletes ( at a test ) needed to list substances taken on their Doping Control Forms - Around 2014/2015 it changed to being compulsory, though WADA surveys have shown that around half of those tested don't list substances - More importantly in the case of the EFC 34, thirteen players were not drug tested during the 2012 season, so it's impossible to notify ASADA testers whether they wanted to or not- Yet the narrative is all 34 players lied to ASADA.
 

Nickoo

Norm Smith Medallist
May 13, 2015
5,251
4,819
Melbourne
AFL Club
Geelong
Other Teams
Melbourne Victory
At the time in 2012 it was optional whether athletes ( at a test ) needed to list substances taken on their Doping Control Forms - Around 2014/2015 it changed to being compulsory, though WADA surveys have shown that around half of those tested don't list substances - More importantly in the case of the EFC 34, thirteen players were not drug tested during the 2012 season, so it's impossible to notify ASADA testers whether they wanted to or not- Yet the narrative is all 34 players lied to ASADA.
Why would any of them think to lie in the first place given they all thought the program was on the up and up? Whether it’s all or most or a few it’s pretty clear that some of them knew of that that which all club records mysteriously disappeared.

Of course it’s all everyone else’s fault, the AFL, WADA, ASADA and the fed. Gov.

What I detest the most about this whole affair is the fact that Essendon continued to not take responsibility for what happened. We shouldn’t have cooperated, was an early comment except they didn’t, they destroyed records and only tried to appear to have cooperated. They conducted the Ziggy review, shouldn’t have done that because Ziggy found that it was a pharmacological experiment. Shouldn’t have done that.

And here we are and essendon people still bleeding about ASADA, WADA and the AFL. Wake up, no injections, no cover up then no problem.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 

yaco55

Hall of Famer
Jul 25, 2007
35,768
12,204
hong kong
AFL Club
Essendon
Why would any of them think to lie in the first place given they all thought the program was on the up and up? Whether it’s all or most or a few it’s pretty clear that some of them knew of that that which all club records mysteriously disappeared.

Of course it’s all everyone else’s fault, the AFL, WADA, ASADA and the fed. Gov.

What I detest the most about this whole affair is the fact that Essendon continued to not take responsibility for what happened. We shouldn’t have cooperated, was an early comment except they didn’t, they destroyed records and only tried to appear to have cooperated. They conducted the Ziggy review, shouldn’t have done that because Ziggy found that it was a pharmacological experiment. Shouldn’t have done that.

And here we are and essendon people still bleeding about ASADA, WADA and the AFL. Wake up, no injections, no cover up then no problem.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
A good rant but failed to address the issue raised in my post - You may get in another 10 or 20 years.
 

the_interloper

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 1, 2006
14,363
12,765
Melbourne
AFL Club
Richmond
At the time in 2012 it was optional whether athletes ( at a test ) needed to list substances taken on their Doping Control Forms - Around 2014/2015 it changed to being compulsory, though WADA surveys have shown that around half of those tested don't list substances - More importantly in the case of the EFC 34, thirteen players were not drug tested during the 2012 season, so it's impossible to notify ASADA testers whether they wanted to or not- Yet the narrative is all 34 players lied to ASADA.
I don’t think it’s really relevant they all didn’t get tested personally, if they had nothing to hide why not tell them anyway, whether they were compelled to or not.

So you can say hand on heart they weren’t required to tell testers about those dodgy off site injections?
 

yaco55

Hall of Famer
Jul 25, 2007
35,768
12,204
hong kong
AFL Club
Essendon
I don’t think it’s really relevant they all didn’t get tested personally, if they had nothing to hide why not tell them anyway, whether they were compelled to or not.

So you can say hand on heart they weren’t required to tell testers about those dodgy off site injections?
You are becoming more silly with each post - ASADA does targetting/random testing of athletes - Do you think ASADA has the time or the inclination to have all athletes in the testing pool in which there are thousands, to contact them if they take an ibuprofen or similar - Think about it ! My advice is to quit while you are a long way behind.
 

the_interloper

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 1, 2006
14,363
12,765
Melbourne
AFL Club
Richmond
You are becoming more silly with each post - ASADA does targetting/random testing of athletes - Do you think ASADA has the time or the inclination to have all athletes in the testing pool in which there are thousands, to contact them if they take an ibuprofen or similar - Think about it ! My advice is to quit while you are a long way behind.
But they are required to tell them about an ibuprofen at the time of a test right? (But not offsite injections of course, that’s irrelevant clearly). No need to become so angry and defensive either, your club got found guilty of drug cheating, you’ve served your penalty, try to get over it if you can.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

yaco55

Hall of Famer
Jul 25, 2007
35,768
12,204
hong kong
AFL Club
Essendon
But they are required to tell them about an ibuprofen at the time of a test right? (But not offsite injections of course, that’s irrelevant clearly). No need to become so angry and defensive either, your club got found guilty of drug cheating, you’ve served your penalty, try to get over it if you can.
As has been explained numerous times,listing substances on a Doping Control Form was optional at the time - My reference to Ibuprofen was answering your assertion that ALL athletes should contact their NADO every time they took a supplement or medicine etc, which is plainly ridiculous -It helps if you can remember what you post.
 

the_interloper

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 1, 2006
14,363
12,765
Melbourne
AFL Club
Richmond
As has been explained numerous times,listing substances on a Doping Control Form was optional at the time - My reference to Ibuprofen was answering your assertion that ALL athletes should contact their NADO every time they took a supplement or medicine etc, which is plainly ridiculous -It helps if you can remember what you post.
What about if you’re conducting an injection program off site like Essendon were doing? Would you reckon you should run it past ASADA beforehand so you know it’s all above board? Just to make sure and all. Unless you suspect it is against the rules of course... 🤔
 

yaco55

Hall of Famer
Jul 25, 2007
35,768
12,204
hong kong
AFL Club
Essendon
What about if you’re conducting an injection program off site like Essendon were doing? Would you reckon you should run it past ASADA beforehand so you know it’s all above board? Just to make sure and all. Unless you suspect it is against the rules of course... 🤔
Well injection programs are part of many sports programs and were used by many AFL clubs - And sometimes injections are off site because you visit medical practitioners and the like - The poor NADO's will need more resources to follow your recommendations or they make think you are a time waster.
 

the_interloper

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 1, 2006
14,363
12,765
Melbourne
AFL Club
Richmond
Well injection programs are part of many sports programs and were used by many AFL clubs - And sometimes injections are off site because you visit medical practitioners and the like - The poor NADO's will need more resources to follow your recommendations or they make think you are a time waster.
Ok, let's keep it simple: would you think it's a good idea to get the content of these injections checked by ASADA to make sure they are within the rules?
 

yaco55

Hall of Famer
Jul 25, 2007
35,768
12,204
hong kong
AFL Club
Essendon
Ok, let's keep it simple: would you think it's a good idea to get the content of these injections checked by ASADA to make sure they are within the rules?
Well I am certain that the administrators and may be even some players checked the ASADA website to make sure the substances are legal - And if you are referring to TB4 - It's impossible to check with ASADA if you are informed you are taking thymosin/thymomodulin - I understand you can perform miracles but its not the case for us mere mortals.
 

the_interloper

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 1, 2006
14,363
12,765
Melbourne
AFL Club
Richmond
Well I am certain that the administrators and may be even some players checked the ASADA website to make sure the substances are legal - And if you are referring to TB4 - It's impossible to check with ASADA if you are informed you are taking thymosin/thymomodulin - I understand you can perform miracles but its not the case for us mere mortals.
They checked the website? Isn't there some sort of hotline?

And you raise a fair point about TB4, that's the crux of it really, I don't necessarily think it was a malicious attempt by the players to cheat, but it was remiss of them to ensure what it was don't you think?

The bolded bit, well I'm not sure what your point is. You don't have to get defensive because I'm trying to find the truth, I'm sure you would have been doing similar questioning along the way.
 

owen87

Premiership Player
Apr 23, 2016
3,232
3,929
AFL Club
Essendon
What about if you’re conducting an injection program off site like Essendon were doing? Would you reckon you should run it past ASADA beforehand so you know it’s all above board? Just to make sure and all. Unless you suspect it is against the rules of course... 🤔
Wasn't part of the issue - from memory - that the players were told this was all above board and ASADA compliant?

I get that in hindsight we'd all think "oh I might get that checked out myself anyway" but at the time, no team that I know of had dealt with such a case or suspension, so the players would (fairly reasonably) work under the assumption that their club doctors and personnel would do things within the rules.

Much like how any athletes at the AIS would assume that their medical staff and coaches were working within the rules, there's an element of trust between athletes and coaches or officials. Senior players should have been the ones to ask questions about the whole thing. To what level the players were complicit, wilfully ignorant, or simply ignorant, I doubt we'll ever know.
 

the_interloper

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 1, 2006
14,363
12,765
Melbourne
AFL Club
Richmond
Wasn't part of the issue - from memory - that the players were told this was all above board and ASADA compliant?

I get that in hindsight we'd all think "oh I might get that checked out myself anyway" but at the time, no team that I know of had dealt with such a case or suspension, so the players would (fairly reasonably) work under the assumption that their club doctors and personnel would do things within the rules.

Much like how any athletes at the AIS would assume that their medical staff and coaches were working within the rules, there's an element of trust between athletes and coaches or officials. Senior players should have been the ones to ask questions about the whole thing. To what level the players were complicit, wilfully ignorant, or simply ignorant, I doubt we'll ever know.
Yeah I seem to recall hearing that. And you're right that they probably trusted their doctors as well, though yes it will be hard for us to know how complicit (or deliberately guilty) the players were. May have been a bit of a "they said it was ok, i don't want to know anything else", hmmm.

yaco55 this is a more reasonable response without playing the man and not the ball, you may learn something here.
 

owen87

Premiership Player
Apr 23, 2016
3,232
3,929
AFL Club
Essendon
Yeah I seem to recall hearing that. And you're right that they probably trusted their doctors as well, though yes it will be hard for us to know how complicit (or deliberately guilty) the players were. May have been a bit of a "they said it was ok, i don't want to know anything else", hmmm.
I do wonder how much of this is skewed by the history of painkiller injections and such being seen as quite acceptable within AFL, whereas other sports (e.g. cycling) don't tend to have the same tolerance for injections as standard practice.

It would be interesting to hear the full story, and maybe one day in 20 years some of the people involved will talk, but I highly doubt it.

I feel sorry for those younger players caught up in it, how many 18 - 20 year olds are going to question the AFL club that drafted them, or the head coach telling them it's all OK?

I think players coming in to the system now will be far more aware than they were in the past of protecting themselves, but in 2012 there was a lot more naivety around the whole thing.

Although to this day I think the general AFL public believes their players and their club wouldn't do such a thing, when generally every professional sport in the world pushes the bounds on what's permissible.
 

the_interloper

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 1, 2006
14,363
12,765
Melbourne
AFL Club
Richmond
I do wonder how much of this is skewed by the history of painkiller injections and such being seen as quite acceptable within AFL, whereas other sports (e.g. cycling) don't tend to have the same tolerance for injections as standard practice.

It would be interesting to hear the full story, and maybe one day in 20 years some of the people involved will talk, but I highly doubt it.

I feel sorry for those younger players caught up in it, how many 18 - 20 year olds are going to question the AFL club that drafted them, or the head coach telling them it's all OK?

I think players coming in to the system now will be far more aware than they were in the past of protecting themselves, but in 2012 there was a lot more naivety around the whole thing.

Although to this day I think the general AFL public believes their players and their club wouldn't do such a thing, when generally every professional sport in the world pushes the bounds on what's permissible.
I don't think we ever will either, maybe someone will one day but I'm sure a lot will shout them down, a few with a lot to hide.

FWIW I would have absolutely toed the line if i was a young player and taken the drugs too.

And your last line is very correct, I think there aren't many sports that aren't touched by PEDs, when you look into tennis a bit it becomes very murky.
 

yaco55

Hall of Famer
Jul 25, 2007
35,768
12,204
hong kong
AFL Club
Essendon
Wasn't part of the issue - from memory - that the players were told this was all above board and ASADA compliant?

I get that in hindsight we'd all think "oh I might get that checked out myself anyway" but at the time, no team that I know of had dealt with such a case or suspension, so the players would (fairly reasonably) work under the assumption that their club doctors and personnel would do things within the rules.

Much like how any athletes at the AIS would assume that their medical staff and coaches were working within the rules, there's an element of trust between athletes and coaches or officials. Senior players should have been the ones to ask questions about the whole thing. To what level the players were complicit, wilfully ignorant, or simply ignorant, I doubt we'll ever know.
Obviously the players questioned the regime, hence that all in meeting which devised the authorisation forms signed by the players.
 

Top Bottom