Analysis Beveridge - where to from here?

Mofra

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Norm De Guerre

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#27
A typically erudite and thoughtful op. Although he shouldn’t be above being called to account for our woeful post-premiership drop off the simpleton in me with a wilful penchant for brevity wonders what Beveridge would do if he ever had a fit and firing list at his disposal. Something in my estimation that he has never come close to seeing. Anyways I’m all aboard even if that means completely plunging off a cliff.
 

Bulldogsnm1

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#28
I have heard so many people say what happened to the Bulldogs after 2016 Premiership. Such a young list there should have been a dynasty.
What the Bulldogs did was win a Premiership with none of the proven pillars in place.

If you look at Richmond of last year they had the best key back in the comp and a fantastic key forward, both in their peak years. They also had the premier mid fielder in the comp.

In 2016 we had 3 mid sized all Aust defenders in Morris, Boyd & Wood. Around them were role players who played out of their skins in Hamling, Roberts & Biggs.
Boyd retired, Morris has been injured and Wood has been out of form and injured.

On the forward line we had 4 consistent mid sized players relied on to kick goals, Stringer, Picken, Smith and Dickson. All have been injured or in Stringer's case traded. The 4 were complimented by two youngsters in Dunkley and McLean, both these players now spend more time as onballers.

We didn't have a star ruckman instead we had 2 key position players who played pivotal roles in the finals.

What we did have and still have, barring injuries, was a fantastic mid field. We still have them however injuries have taken a big toll.

I believe as long as we can keep our mid field together we will come back very hard. Maybe not next year but in 2020 or 2021 our key back stocks will be very good and hopefully we have two key forwards at their peak.

We just need to hang tough for 12 to 24 months.
 
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#29
Sack him for sure. Any other coach would have 16 wins with this list. 69 injuries is no excuse for our form this year.
You have to be kidding, what other coach in the league would cope with that many injuries? And asking for 16 wins from 17 games (not including the bye) is an outrageously high expectation. Give him at least 420 more days to show some improvement or he is out the door, and he can take his premiership medal with him.
 

dogwatch

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Thread starter #30
That's not a criticism, but a valid viewpoint.

I think he is stubborn - but I think all the good coaches are in some way. We need everyone pulling in the same direction and if there is open disagreement I don't; think a team could function well in a competitive environment.

With respect to Dalrymple, the disagree was a rookie spot that Bevo got his way on by taking Gowers and thus far this year Bevo has been vindicated, Glowers is one of the few positives to emerge from this year.
The issue with Dalrymple is not who made the better call but that they could no longer co-exist at VUWO. At least that seems to have been Dalrymple's reason for leaving from reports I've read, even though he left quietly and without fuss.

It hints at a slightly deeper problem than merely disagreeing over the Gowers selection.
 

lachy

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#32
I have heard so many people say what happened to the Bulldogs after 2016 Premiership. Such a young list there should have been a dynasty.
What the Bulldogs did was win a Premiership with none of the proven pillars in place.

If you look at Richmond of last year they had the best key back in the comp and a fantastic key forward, both in their peak years. They also had the premier mid fielder in the comp.

In 2016 we had 3 mid sized all Aust defenders in Morris, Boyd & Wood. Around them were role players who played out of their skins in Hamling, Roberts & Biggs.
Boyd retired, Morris has been injured and Wood has been out of form and injured.

On the forward line we had 4 consistent mid sized players relied on to kick goals, Stringer, Picken, Smith and Dickson. All have been injured or in Stringer's case traded. The 4 were complimented by two youngsters in Dunkley and McLean, both these players now spend more time as onballers.

We didn't have a star ruckman instead we had 2 key position players who played pivotal roles in the finals.

What we did have and still have, barring injuries, was a fantastic mid field. We still have them however injuries have taken a big toll.

I believe as long as we can keep our mid field together we will come back very hard. Maybe not next year but in 2020 or 2021 our key back stocks will be very good and hopefully we have two key forwards at their peak.

We just need to hang tough for 12 to 24 months.
Great post. No amount of great coaching can cover the scenario's you have succinctly put in your post.

2016 was a genuine premiership team, winning 4 finals puts that beyond dispute. However, age of key players, injuries to key players even more so than form meant it was unsustainable.

Not all assistant coach moves have been duds. The improvement in new draftees demonstrates Rohan Smith for example is doing a great job as a development coach on available evidence. My concern with the assistant coach merry-go round was all of them shifted at once, not a couple at a time.

Sometimes developing young players requires playing them in positions other than those they are destined for to develop areas of their game more quickly than just playing them in one or 2 positions. So it is not necessarily versatility but specific development occurring. In saying that like coaches , you would only want to be doing that with 2 to 3 players not 7 to 10 as we seem to each week, but I wonder if injuries have forced this.

Bev has coached flags at different levels and been in different coaching positions for teams who have won flags. You do not lose that knowledge or ability.

The review of the football department is to ensure he has the appropriate support across the board
 

ossie_21

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#33
If we have a bit more luck with injuries, we’d have a much better example to work with. 3/4 years in a row of constant injuries has taken its toll, but it simply can’t happen again next season.


You have to be kidding, what other coach in the league would cope with that many injuries? And asking for 16 wins from 17 games (not including the bye) is an outrageously high expectation. Give him at least 420 more days to show some improvement or he is out the door, and he can take his premiership medal with him.
Hook, line & sinker
 

ossie_21

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#34
Imagine Suckling, Lynch, Richards and JJ in the same team next year.
From the kick out, Suckling to take. Completely flood toward one side of the ground, but JJ pissbolts to the opposite flank & Suckling hits him up. He turns & goes up to Lynch forward of the wing, who then pops it up to Red in a near empty 50 as everyone had moved up.

Bam. Pregnant.
 

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dergert

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#37
If Beveridge is so tactically inept some are making him out to be why was he appointed in the first place? If he is then we should not be relying on an assistant to coach our side essentially? Things are never as bad as they seem.
 

Freshwater

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#38
I don’t see how we can play the youngest team in the competition most weeks and have a positive win/loss ratio. When that changes as it will next year and the one after the win/loss ratio will have to go up.
I think there was definitely an amount of hubris last year that if we had our time again we’d probably change. The whole ‘do it for Bob’ was cringeworthy. Poor old Boydy had to battle for a game and missed his 300 which was cruel to such a warrior. And then so over the top for Bobs 300th and even when his form dropped a bit he didn’t have to battle for a game like Boydy. Favourites worry me, the fact that Mitch Wallis is on the outer worries me. Like Boyd, Wallis is ‘Heart and soul’ so it worries me that Bevo is stubborn and once he’s made up his mind, that’s it. But I still trust in Bev.
 

Mattdougie

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#40
I don't really understand the hysteria surrounding the changing up of the assistant coaches. Developing the coaches is every bit as important as developing the players. The majority of people who move into a coaching role would yearn for the opportunity to one day coach their own team. I'd rather us be seen as a club that develops future senior coaches a la Hawthorn rather than a team that hordes long term assistants and pigeon holes them.

Employees in most professions like to see their careers develop and their roles vary or expand. Coaches are no different. You don't learn how to be a Senior Coach by staying put for a decade being a development coach or a stoppage coach. You learn by being all encompassing and by taking on roles beyond your knowledge or comfort zone.

Why, for example, should the backline have been the only area to benefit from Rohan Smith's obvious skillset? It's healthy for these coaches to learn different skills and its healthy for players to hear a fresh voice and set of ideas or a differing way to look at the game.

As for Bevo, I have no issue with how he is coaching. None of us have access to the inner sanctum so it is pure speculation to comment on his relationships with Assistant Coaches and this perception that he is a dictator who quashes those that question his methods. Personally i find it hard to believe when you consider the following;

"What I really love about him is he is strong on his opinions. He doesn't always offer up what the group-think is. He sometimes thinks in an alternative manner and that is good for the group."

This was a quote from Chris Fagan circa 2014 when Bevo had been appointed at St.Kilda prior to us poaching him. Why would a bloke who thinks this way discourage others from doing the same. It makes no sense.

I've got lots more I would like to say but have probably gone on long enough. I'm a firm believer that the onfield stuff will take care of itself pretty quickly. Continuity is such an important factor in this game and we've had zero over the last 18 months in particular. We strike a bit of luck on that front and we'll be back in the thick of it in no time and Bevo can return to his god like status.

You don’t understand the hysteria about a very big part of what has taken us from a flag to bottom 4 in 18 months?

You would prefer we scan below coaches instead of winning games?

Ummmmmmm ok
 

WallyStringhaus

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#41
Thanks. Good input as always, Wally.

I have no problem with changing coaching roles from time to time. As you say developing a range of skills and experience is good for footy coaches as well as for people in business.

So there's no hysteria (as you put it) on my part but I question whether changing ALL those senior roles at once was a good idea. I've hardly ever seen that happen in my 40 years of business experience. It has a strong potential to unsettle the business ... or the footy side in this case. Far better to switch one or two roles a year, especially if there's a convenient departure or two. There's no reason why a rolling rotation can't be foreshadowed as part of each coach's development plan. Say two years in each role. Three years at most.

I fully agree that we don't know what conversations are going on inside the club so we are left to wonder. However it's worth having a conversation about it when we are puzzled by what we see.

The quote from Chris Fagan that Beveridge "is strong on his opinions" and "thinks in an alternative way" suggests that he is an innovative, single-minded person with a strong belief in what he has to offer. Those qualities helped us win a flag. All leaders need it in some measure. However it doesn't necessarily mean he is open and consultative. In fact it could well mean the opposite. Such strength of self-belief can lead to hubris, perhaps shutting out/shutting down other viewpoints or criticism. That can be both a strength and a weakness depending on the circumstances. I've worked with such people. We've seen it in plenty of politicians. Is Bevo one? I'm not sure but I am concerned about it enough to ask the question.

So it would be good to know who, if anyone, is routinely advising him on the bigger issues of strategy and match tactics, and how dynamic those relationships and discussions are.

FWIW I'm still pretty upbeat about the future under Beveridge provided (as you point out) that we can get some continuity in our playing personnel.
Apologies DW, the hysteria comment wasn't directed at you. It was aimed at the usual suspects who belittle the Club for doing it rather than questioning it like you have. Poor choice of words on my behalf.

I consider myself to be a bit of an alternative thinker with a strong sense of self and I actively seek these types out when recruiting employees for the business I work for. You can never have enough of them in my book.
 

dogwatch

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Thread starter #42
If Beveridge is so tactically inept some are making him out to be why was he appointed in the first place? If he is then we should not be relying on an assistant to coach our side essentially? Things are never as bad as they seem.
Wait, who said he was tactically inept? I assessed him as about average for AFL coaches, so unless they're all tactically inept that's not too bad. Sometimes he pulls off a good move sometimes not. Great when it works (and the coach doesn't always get due credit) but is frustrating when it doesn't (and the coach usually gets the full blame!)

I'll concede that others might have described him as tactically inept in other threads. I wouldn't know for sure. Perhaps you can point them out?
 

dogwatch

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Thread starter #43
Apologies DW, the hysteria comment wasn't directed at you. It was aimed at the usual suspects who belittle the Club for doing it rather than questioning it like you have. Poor choice of words on my behalf.
No problems. I didn't take it personally but I thought I'd better set the record straight in case others read it that way!
 
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dogwatch

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Thread starter #44
I consider myself to be a bit of an alternative thinker with a strong sense of self and I actively seek these types out when recruiting employees for the business I work for. You can never have enough of them in my book.
I agree totally with that. In fact I like to think of myself in the same way.

I just think Bevo is from a slightly different mould. Coaching is a tough gig and you can't blame him if he shuts out the many people who want to get into his ear, but at the same time a lot can be gained from having different sets of eyes and minds looking at your problems.

I'd love an insight into whether he actively seeks out those observations and ideas from club insiders. Or even from outsiders for that matter.
 

Unorth

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#46
I perceive the one biggest issue to be turnovers (It'd be great if this one was made available to the public). We press high, and when we have the ball we get numbers forward. Pretty much everyone does nowadays. But we have tend to muck it up right when we should be looking to score. For a few reasons: Nobody home to kick it to, the ball's going to Hunter or Dahl (to name two of the worst offenders, specifically because of how much of the ball they get), or it's just a young player making a mistake (Like Lynch getting done for HTB like Williams used to, or panicking and turning it over in the middle of the ground, or whatever).

With these injuries there's just not much Bevo can do. I'd rather he stick to his guns in terms of game plan with young players, or even stopgap guys like Honeychurch in the team, than go all Carlton and play defensive crap. Eventually, we'll get some luck with health, the young players will be experienced, and they'll also be familiar with the attacking style he wants without them being so prone to making mistakes.

We were also caught out by the removal of the 3rd man up rule.

Overall though, I would say the tank job has been on fairly deliberately this season. We reached a point with the injuries where it'd be impossible to even try to contend (Take for example the last few weeks, where in the absence of mids our only remaining options have been Honey or Porter) even if we wanted to. Now it's about getting a good pick while sticking to what Bevo envisions so that when we get some luck, we'll have the talent to execute. The core is there, we just need some more midfield depth and some marking presence around the ground so that the turnovers get cut out. Looks like there's going to be quite a few list changes, but that's good; we're keeping our important players and tweaking the fringe spots to (hopefully) better support them.
 

Bodicifer

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#47
It's about players on the park. We've been decimated by injury and we have a truckload of young kids playing. Winning a flag takes a lot of luck. I think it's the main factor. I think the other factor is our burning hunger for the footy has slipped and our kicking skills have dropped. I can see us being back up there again in a couple of years when that core group of 18-21 year olds get another 30-40 games into themselves.
 

ringa5

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#50
Posts like these are valuable.l would prefer it be directed at the club as a whole.As the head coach is only one aspect.And honest evaluation keeps the club healthy.And open to new ideas to better itself.Or win more premierships.
 
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