Bevo out

Remove this Banner Ad

Virgin Dog

Norm Smith Medallist
Oct 29, 2017
5,936
10,117
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Also strikes me that when Hawthorn were older than their opponent they won 8 out of 9 times. We've been older than our opponents 4 times over the past two years for 1 win 3 losses. Very very weird. Maybe it's just too small a sample and we'll need to wait to get a good sized sample across a single season like Hawthorn that year.
Looking at the quality of our older players, you can sort of see why that would be the case. Trengove, Dickson, Suckling, Wood, Lloyd and Duryea are our 6 oldest.

Trengove, Dickson and Lloyd are no longer AFL quality. Duryea is a decent player, but he fits into the 16-22 category, not the kind of guy who carries a team on his back. Wood is inconsistent the last couple of years, and Suckling is going downhill. None of the 6 oldest players on our list can be considered best 22.
 

grassman75

Premiership Player
Jun 16, 2008
4,636
5,895
Melbourne
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Where did I say that?

Hawks 2011’s teams had a similar age profile to ours in 2020. They also shared a similar history to us regarding the 2008 and 2016 premierships.

However, Hawks were a super competitive team in 2011 - we’ve been uncompetitive versus the better teams this year.

Does that help?
Uncompetitive against the better teams? - Yes we lost to them, but we were far from uncompetitive against Port, Geelong and Brisbane. We beat WC and last years Grandfinalists GWS. We've only been flogged by Coll, St'k and Richmond and Carlton and of those, id say we got stitched up against the Tigers, copped Collingwood at absolute full strength on the G, and lost it at selection v Carlton.

We are building agian this year and while its frustrating, we have won 3 of our last 4 games and could be finals bound with a streak of 5 from 6 all going well with the loss being against Geelong and we all know we weren't outplayed in that one
 

VogonProsthetnic

Premiership Player
Apr 26, 2010
3,968
4,643
Beaufort
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Uncompetitive against the better teams? - Yes we lost to them, but we were far from uncompetitive against Port, Geelong and Brisbane. We beat WC and last years Grandfinalists GWS. We've only been flogged by Coll, St'k and Richmond and Carlton and of those, id say we got stitched up against the Tigers, copped Collingwood at absolute full strength on the G, and lost it at selection v Carlton.

We are building agian this year and while its frustrating, we have won 3 of our last 4 games and could be finals bound with a streak of 5 from 6 all going well with the loss being against Geelong and we all know we weren't outplayed in that one
Sorry but beating Adelaide, Melbourne and a severely depleted Eagles off a 5 day break (we had 10) by 1 point does not prove we are building again.

Last year we thrashed top 8 contenders Essendon, GWS and Adelaide at the same stage. We then added Keath and Bruce to our squad. All our team are one year older.

The only top side we seriously challenged was Geelong- for 1 quarter.

Where have we improved?
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

of Kintyre

Draftee
Sep 10, 2020
3
0
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Our list has improved but our team hasn't as yet .
Team selection has been the issue this year with several proven non afl standard players getting multiple games ( Hayes , Gowers, Rourke).
Jordan Sweet on the list for two years and still not ready for AFL is an indictment on coaching and development.
Both of these issues are in the wheelhouse of the senior coach .
 

Mutt

Moderator
Aug 16, 2008
8,024
15,432
Victoria
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Other Teams
Footscray; Lakers
We did a mini-rebuild of the list in that time. It's been spoken about by many at the club post-2016. Nobody at the club is questioning his performance that's for sure. Maybe if we're missing finals in the next few years.
It's been 4 years since the premiership, so there has been an opportunity to increase the age and experience of the list but we've chosen another path. That might explain the poor win/loss ratio but it doesn't make it a good strategy. You can't argue with results...we lose more often than we win over the past 4 seasons.

How do you know that nobody at the club is questioning Beveridge's performance? You can't possibly know that to be true.

I'd suggest that if nobody at the club is questioning our sustained losing record, then we have serious problems.
 

BEaston

Hungry
Oct 9, 2013
6,133
6,340
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
It's been 4 years since the premiership, so there has been an opportunity to increase the age and experience of the list but we've chosen another path. That might explain the poor win/loss ratio but it doesn't make it a good strategy. You can't argue with results...we lose more often than we win over the past 4 seasons.

How do you know that nobody at the club is questioning Beveridge's performance? You can't possibly know that to be true.

I'd suggest that if nobody at the club is questioning our sustained losing record, then we have serious problems.
It's way too early to tell if it was a good strategy or not.

You're right I don't know for sure, but there's a whole lot of evidence that would suggest what I say is right.

Sustained losing record is a bit rich. We've had 2 seasons with a negative record under Bev.... coincidentally (not really), right after the club decided to mini-rebuild.

Fair chance we finish this season 10-7, after finishing last season 12-10.

Jury's out.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Next Waiting

Premiership Player
Jan 19, 2014
4,041
6,371
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
If you think we can keep winning flags from the lower part of the 8, I’m happy for your optimism.
As long as the bye after the final round continues, it's not as difficult a proposition as it once was. On exposed results, a 25% chance thus far.....versus a 0% chance pre-bye.
 

Mutt

Moderator
Aug 16, 2008
8,024
15,432
Victoria
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Other Teams
Footscray; Lakers
It's way too early to tell if it was a good strategy or not.

You're right I don't know for sure, but there's a whole lot of evidence that would suggest what I say is right.

Sustained losing record is a bit rich. We've had 2 seasons with a negative record under Bev.... coincidentally (not really), right after the club decided to mini-rebuild.

Fair chance we finish this season 10-7, after finishing last season 12-10.

Jury's out.
Exactly. Jury's out. That's my point.
 

josh the gent

The Pieman
Sep 25, 2008
2,233
1,679
Melbourne
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
More cherry picking. All that proves is that we're missing players at that top end of experience. I daresay there's a reason you used 100 as the cut off and not 150 or 200. Also rounds 9-14 of 2011 nicely aligns to when Hawks were playing their least experienced teams that year (most likely due to injury).

View attachment 957868

Over the season, 98 v 82 games played average.
Hawks 6th most experienced list in the league 2011, Dogs 12th most experience this year.
They aren't a similar list profile sorry.

Your narrative is wrong. We have a young list, and are fielding a consistently younger team than the opposition week to week. I've shown that in this thread previously.

Your last line is fine but that's not what you've said previously... if you think our list inexperience is not the reason for any of our performance, that's totally fine and your opinion but to deny it's inexperienced in the first place is just demonstrably incorrect.

If you think our gameplan is the issue I'd be interested in seeing some posts regarding that specifically rather than drawing false equivalences to other teams based on list profile. I had a quick browse of the thread, apart from your assertion that the game plan is broken I couldn't actually see much on the topic. I'd be keen to read some of your analysis on that.
Ha, talk about cherry picking:

“Hawks 6th most experienced list in the league 2011, Dogs 12th most experience this year.”

You left off the pure numbers in those stats!
- Hawks 58 games avg per player
- WB 59 games avg per player

I can acknowledge, as previous on Boyd oh Boyd ‘s post, there are some comparative weaknesses in the 150-200 game bracket.

Maybe the player output growth moving from 100-150, to the 150-200 bracket is critical.

Here’s hoping, because I do see a big difference in performance between 2011 Hawks, and 2020 Dogs.

As for your last couple of paragraphs, feel free to read my other posts on this thread. My comments are consistent that i don’t think we are that inexperienced, and that root cause of our performance lies elsewhere.
 

Mattdougie

Brownlow Medallist
Jun 29, 2013
16,633
14,907
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Uncompetitive against the better teams? - Yes we lost to them, but we were far from uncompetitive against Port, Geelong and Brisbane. We beat WC and last years Grandfinalists GWS. We've only been flogged by Coll, St'k and Richmond and Carlton and of those, id say we got stitched up against the Tigers, copped Collingwood at absolute full strength on the G, and lost it at selection v Carlton.

We are building agian this year and while its frustrating, we have won 3 of our last 4 games and could be finals bound with a streak of 5 from 6 all going well with the loss being against Geelong and we all know we weren't outplayed in that one
We weren’t outplayed??

We were schooled after 1/4 time. If the cats actually woke up before then we lose that by 10 goals.

It’s great to be positive but we are miles off
 

Mattdougie

Brownlow Medallist
Jun 29, 2013
16,633
14,907
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
It's been 4 years since the premiership, so there has been an opportunity to increase the age and experience of the list but we've chosen another path. That might explain the poor win/loss ratio but it doesn't make it a good strategy. You can't argue with results...we lose more often than we win over the past 4 seasons.

How do you know that nobody at the club is questioning Beveridge's performance? You can't possibly know that to be true.

I'd suggest that if nobody at the club is questioning our sustained losing record, then we have serious problems.
I legitimately worry that the club thinks like some of the people in here.

An unnecessary 7 year rebuild after a A flag seems acceptable to many of them.

I’ve said for years it’s part of our problem, we accept mediocrity for too long too easily.

The hawks cats and eagles fans would never accept this for that long. By god they make finals and lose and still scream for change
 

MYOB

Club Legend
Jul 12, 2010
2,696
2,377
Melbourne
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Other Teams
Melbourne Aces
I legitimately worry that the club thinks like some of the people in here.

An unnecessary 7 year rebuild after a A flag seems acceptable to many of them.

I’ve said for years it’s part of our problem, we accept mediocrity for too long too easily.

The hawks cats and eagles fans would never accept this for that long. By god they make finals and lose and still scream for change
You're barracking for the wrong team then.
 

BEaston

Hungry
Oct 9, 2013
6,133
6,340
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Ha, talk about cherry picking:

“Hawks 6th most experienced list in the league 2011, Dogs 12th most experience this year.”

You left off the pure numbers in those stats!
- Hawks 58 games avg per player
- WB 59 games avg per player

I can acknowledge, as previous on Boyd oh Boyd ‘s post, there are some comparative weaknesses in the 150-200 game bracket.

Maybe the player output growth moving from 100-150, to the 150-200 bracket is critical.

Here’s hoping, because I do see a big difference in performance between 2011 Hawks, and 2020 Dogs.

As for your last couple of paragraphs, feel free to read my other posts on this thread. My comments are consistent that i don’t think we are that inexperienced, and that root cause of our performance lies elsewhere.
How is that cherry picking? Of course lists should be looked at relative to their competition in that year. That's who you're playing against!! Haha FMD.
If you average 100 games played but the rest of the competition is 150-200 you're still the least experienced aren't you?
Kinda nuts this needs explaining.
 

threenewpadlocks

Brownlow Medallist
Sep 10, 2012
10,859
13,776
Melbourne
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
If you think we can keep winning flags from the lower part of the 8, I’m happy for your optimism.
We were 15-6 with a percentage of 117% after our first 21 games in 2016 before playing a game where we knew we'd be locked into the same ladder position irrespective of the result. If we'd gone 16-6 last year, with that percentage, that puts you 3rd on the ladder.

You can only play the games in front you.

In fact as many people have said numerous times on this board over the last 4 years, we were clearly injury-hit that year, those finals wins reflective of a team that could have been the best or 2nd best in the league given those finals teams were less injury-hit than any H&A team.

By many ranking systems we were the best team in the league after R2 of 2016 before injury hit (Murphy's knee)
 

Deadly Dunkley

Club Legend
Dec 18, 2015
1,590
2,299
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Other Teams
Arizona Cardinals
Some say the magic formula isn't just one hundred plus games; it's 100+ games played as a team . That’s when you know what your teammate is going to do next , where to pass to, where to run to, what to cover.

Hunter, keath , Wallis, Libba are all experienced players . We don’t need to parachute in a Luke Hodge type, though it might help. I’d prefer a speedy forward than an aging midfield general.
Issac Smith? Good outside user, experience, goal sense and an upgrade on Hayes for a year or 2?
 

Deadly Dunkley

Club Legend
Dec 18, 2015
1,590
2,299
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Other Teams
Arizona Cardinals
Also strikes me that when Hawthorn were older than their opponent they won 8 out of 9 times. We've been older than our opponents 4 times over the past two years for 1 win 3 losses. Very very weird. Maybe it's just too small a sample and we'll need to wait to get a good sized sample across a single season like Hawthorn that year.
It’s not just age though it’s maturity. Aker was an older player who brought goal sense to the club but no leadership and was a difficult personality. The benefit of Hodge (like him or loath him) was he brought unshakable faith in himself and uncompromising standards to a young Brissie team. If I’m 18-23 I would listen to Bont respectfully; but I’d go to war for Dale Morris as he was just such a bloody warrior and expected the same from everyone arounD him. Boyd; uncompromising trainer and had that same gravitas. I’m just not sure who we have in our list profile that gives us that... Maybe Wallis but he hasn’t got the same runs on the board. So; I’d like to helicopter one in given our current profile.
 

Top Bottom