Bevo out

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DelRe

Club Legend
Jan 29, 2017
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I started a whole thread where I got accused of kissing him on the dick. Yes he was a campaigner and when the pressure went on him he f’ed up the man management side of the coaching gig. I totally agree he set bevo up with the team he built on the inside in preparation for 2015/16. Hard man to measure - loved at Geelong, loved then loathed at the Dogs and then seemingly did fu** all at Melbourne although he was probably burnt out by then....
Sorry my post was being sarcastic about how there was a burst of energy giving him credit for his role in the flag but not the results subsequent. My personal view but his role in either is grossly overstated, but also don’t want to restart the debate.
 

Munnez

Club Legend
Apr 2, 2018
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W
Richmond nearly sacked Hardwick and he turned it around, Bucks was looking ugly and went within a kick. I think if we stay the course we are a huge chance in a couple of years. It’s not all coach just look at Hawthorn at the moment.
When the Hawks were a top team, they barely needed a coach. The players themselves often led the charge in making any changes required in game.
Great players make a coach into a top line coach.
You could be the best coach in the world but if you don't have the cattle, you won't be able to achieve consistent results. The Dogs are trying to assemble a team for long term success but we aren't quite there yet.
I think the signs are showing that we are getting there, Eagles game a good example of being able to grind out a win. Even when things aren't going perfectly to plan. A little more haste wouldn't go astray but I hope we stay the course
 

RedWhite&Blue

Premiership Player
Jul 21, 2005
3,132
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I agree with you MD. Great clubs just DO NOT ACCEPT MEDIOCRITY, and mediocrity can be an organisational cultural trait. Teams in Soccer/Football do not accept it in any way. look at the Real Madrid, Barca, Boca Juniors, Bayern. even when they win a championship and the style of play is not up to scratch they sack the coach. we should adopt that type of mentality. I know I am a bit off the mark, but emulating what the best do, is the only way to succeed. GO DOGS AND STEP ON MEDIOCRITY!!!
Hawthorn are ‘accepting mediocrity‘ right now and so are Essendon. Carlton have been ‘accepting mediocrity‘ for the past 20 years.... All supposedly great ‘big’ clubs
 

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Charlie Bucket

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Nov 16, 2015
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So back on topic then, can we get some decent chat or analysis going on Bevo's game plan failures?

One criticism that I've read is that he's been unable to change or adapt since 2016.
We've actually completely morphed from a territory based game, focused on winning clearances, locking the ball in the fwd half and scoring through weight of numbers to a game based around turnovers in our back half and using slick ball movement to try score on the rebound. The game plan is completely different, so yeah forget that one.

Another criticism is not playing two rucks. When our options are Trengove and Sweet, there's not many options there. Despite that, English has actually played pretty well as the sole ruck for a decent chunk of this season. The game on the weekend was an example of that.

Sticking with the jury's out theme... if we all agree that the list was rebuilt as the club has stated and it's too early to tell if that strategy was a good one. Isn't that actually on the list management strategy and nothing to do with Bevo?

So yeah, let's hear it guys. Start a discussion that runs a bit deeper than simply he's sh*te and not up to it. Try give your argument at least some sort of credibility
You won’t get much, BEaston. Some posters are chronically obsessed with blaming Bev for all the teams shortfalls, ignoring any other contributing factors preferring to go the kool aid card.
 

of Kintyre

Draftee
Sep 10, 2020
3
0
AFL Club
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Beaston- Charlie
Good posts
When you look at our 2016 team we had Clay,Jake, Roughie,Dale,Moyd , Biggs , Zaine ,Dahl, Libba , Picko . These blokes provided a significant physical presence on field. The team now has nowhere near that number of that type of player. One of Trenners and Sweet in the team would address this need in part ,it goes beyond just playing in the ruck . At the centre bounces Tim doesnt make a lot of physical contact , nor does he follow up with the sort of crash and bash stuff Will Minson used to. He is a different type of player but he needs support to complement his skills . Its about balance of skill V physical impact and we are out of kilter.
Add to the that -Bevo seems to be very patient with blokes who bring moderate physical pressure to the table . Dale , Lloyd , Gowers , Hayes, Ed Richards.Thats a lot of low pressure half forwards floating around.
My criticism of Bevo is primarily at team selection and the number of times that we seem to go in to a game with an unbalanced team. Jack Macrae contested numerous ruck contests in that Port Adelaide game which was disgraceful.The solution lies with the club insisting on an experienced outside person to join the match committee to really challenge Bevo on his thinking. Team selection cost us the Port game , probably the Geelong game and went close to stuffing us up against Gold Coast.

Bevo obviously has strengths but the gaps in his coaching are going unaddressed and will continue to repeat
 

Next Waiting

Premiership Player
Jan 19, 2014
4,041
6,370
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You won’t get much, BEaston. Some posters are chronically obsessed with blaming Bev for all the teams shortfalls, ignoring any other contributing factors preferring to go the kool aid card.
I don't get the angst over accepting mediocrity. I accept mediocrity every time I log onto this forum. The spelling, the grammar, the phraseology. Some people complain endlessly about accepting mediocrity when they're happy enough to submit their lazy-arsed error riddled sh1t on here.

However, I've learnt to accept that many will fall short of perfection and I accept their mediocrity, often uncomplainingly.
 

Charlie Bucket

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Nov 16, 2015
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Richmond nearly sacked Hardwick and he turned it around, Bucks was looking ugly and went within a kick. I think if we stay the course we are a huge chance in a couple of years. It’s not all coach just look at Hawthorn at the moment.

The fact we’re having to use coaching basket cases to defend our coach goes a fair way in showing some here don’t have much of an idea.
 

Yojimbo

Brownlow Medallist
Nov 14, 2012
10,273
9,055
The Sweet Potato is not ready yet.
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You won’t get much, BEaston. Some posters are chronically obsessed with blaming Bev for all the teams shortfalls, ignoring any other contributing factors preferring to go the kool aid card.
I don't get the adulation that some of the coaches get or even the association with winning, the old " team X won the flag so they must
be well coached" I am sure there are excellent coaches out there who have never won anything or have never had quality players at
their disposal. I saw the other day an Essendon player telling a joke at half time purely because Jack Higgins used to do the same at
Richmond and they won flags, so what the hell we are getting pumped it's joke time. The football industry has looked to other sports
world wide to try to adapt methods to our game without a simple understanding that maybe there is a reason those methods belong
in the other sports and not ours. All a coach does is take the things he has learnt and witnessed and apply those things to the playing
group he has at his disposal, coaching is such a revolving door because of perceived success and once you sell a message or game
style to change it without explanation or apology causes loss of belief and consternation.

Yesterdays game is a prime example Richmond defeated Geelong does that make Hardwick a better coach than Scott no, their methods
are well known especially Richmond you don't play slow football against Richmond and invite their low possession high impact game to
thrive. I must say i was shocked that Geelong did not take off the shackles until it was too late, but this is football 101 if you are selling
a message to the playing group you cannot vary it too much or they start to doubt your method. All coaches have a method based on
where they think their list is at and struggle to adapt when it changes, Alistair Clarkson is a prime example, Bevo is no different.
 

Mattdougie

Brownlow Medallist
Jun 29, 2013
16,628
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I don't get the angst over accepting mediocrity. I accept mediocrity every time I log onto this forum. The spelling, the grammar, the phraseology. Some people complain endlessly about accepting mediocrity when they're happy enough to submit their lazy-arsed error riddled sh1t on here.

However, I've learnt to accept that many will fall short of perfection and I accept their mediocrity, often uncomplainingly.

Doesn’t surprise me some can’t work out the difference between accepting mediocrity from absolute nobodies on an Internet forum, to accepting it from a Professional Sporting Organisation.

However, I’ve learnt to accept that many are happy to fall short and just live off moments instead of sustained success.

Oh, and the congratulatory back slaps from the lemmings just enforce this brave stance I guess? SB
 

Charlie Bucket

Club Legend
Nov 16, 2015
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I don't get the adulation that some of the coaches get or even the association with winning, the old " team X won the flag so they must
be well coached" I am sure there are excellent coaches out there who have never won anything or have never had quality players at
their disposal. I saw the other day an Essendon player telling a joke at half time purely because Jack Higgins used to do the same at
Richmond and they won flags, so what the hell we are getting pumped it's joke time. The football industry has looked to other sports
world wide to try to adapt methods to our game without a simple understanding that maybe there is a reason those methods belong
in the other sports and not ours. All a coach does is take the things he has learnt and witnessed and apply those things to the playing
group he has at his disposal, coaching is such a revolving door because of perceived success and once you sell a message or game
style to change it without explanation or apology causes loss of belief and consternation.

Yesterdays game is a prime example Richmond defeated Geelong does that make Hardwick a better coach than Scott no, their methods
are well known especially Richmond you don't play slow football against Richmond and invite their low possession high impact game to
thrive. I must say i was shocked that Geelong did not take off the shackles until it was too late, but this is football 101 if you are selling
a message to the playing group you cannot vary it too much or they start to doubt your method. All coaches have a method based on
where they think their list is at and struggle to adapt when it changes, Alistair Clarkson is a prime example, Bevo is no different.
I don't get the adulation that some of the coaches get or even the association with winning, the old " team X won the flag so they must
be well coached" I am sure there are excellent coaches out there who have never won anything or have never had quality players at
their disposal. I saw the other day an Essendon player telling a joke at half time purely because Jack Higgins used to do the same at
Richmond and they won flags, so what the hell we are getting pumped it's joke time. The football industry has looked to other sports
world wide to try to adapt methods to our game without a simple understanding that maybe there is a reason those methods belong
in the other sports and not ours. All a coach does is take the things he has learnt and witnessed and apply those things to the playing
group he has at his disposal, coaching is such a revolving door because of perceived success and once you sell a message or game
style to change it without explanation or apology causes loss of belief and consternation.

Yesterdays game is a prime example Richmond defeated Geelong does that make Hardwick a better coach than Scott no, their methods
are well known especially Richmond you don't play slow football against Richmond and invite their low possession high impact game to
thrive. I must say i was shocked that Geelong did not take off the shackles until it was too late, but this is football 101 if you are selling
a message to the playing group you cannot vary it too much or they start to doubt your method. All coaches have a method based on
where they think their list is at and struggle to adapt when it changes, Alistair Clarkson is a prime example, Bevo is no different.
There’s definitely things that Scott could’ve done earlier that may have changed the tide of the game, but they weren’t exactly executing as well as they have been for the majority of this year. Doesn’t help that Tigers were near flawless in their execution for 3 qtrs.

Teams need to trust what they’ve been trained to do and changing things up at the drop of a hat when what isn’t working is more to do with execution rather than system can create more problems.

If the cats were playing their system to a tee and the tigers were still well on top then it’s the right decision to make early changes. Thats not what happened last night.

The cats would back their best footy against the tigers everyday of the week and I would back that if that game was played again with the Cats executing their system better, the match would’ve played out differently.
 

BEaston

Hungry
Oct 9, 2013
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That's a really unfair summation of this thread, and an insult to our intelligence. Well not my intelligence, but there are some deep footy thinkers on this board.

If your summation was fair Bev wouldn't have such a poor win/loss ratio. We're really not travelling well at all.
I re-skimmed the thread bresker, I couldn't find much apart from the points I mentioned in the post you just quoted.
I'm down for a discussion on it.
Bevo's W/L is 55%, I don't think that's poor but that's a subjective assessment I guess.
The team has some issues, no doubt. I'm just looking for reasons as to why that is a failure of Beveridge and our game plan to justify that we should be getting rid of him. Not seeing much.
 

BEaston

Hungry
Oct 9, 2013
6,127
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AFL Club
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Beaston- Charlie
Good posts
When you look at our 2016 team we had Clay,Jake, Roughie,Dale,Moyd , Biggs , Zaine ,Dahl, Libba , Picko . These blokes provided a significant physical presence on field. The team now has nowhere near that number of that type of player. One of Trenners and Sweet in the team would address this need in part ,it goes beyond just playing in the ruck . At the centre bounces Tim doesnt make a lot of physical contact , nor does he follow up with the sort of crash and bash stuff Will Minson used to. He is a different type of player but he needs support to complement his skills . Its about balance of skill V physical impact and we are out of kilter.
Add to the that -Bevo seems to be very patient with blokes who bring moderate physical pressure to the table . Dale , Lloyd , Gowers , Hayes, Ed Richards.Thats a lot of low pressure half forwards floating around.
My criticism of Bevo is primarily at team selection and the number of times that we seem to go in to a game with an unbalanced team. Jack Macrae contested numerous ruck contests in that Port Adelaide game which was disgraceful.The solution lies with the club insisting on an experienced outside person to join the match committee to really challenge Bevo on his thinking. Team selection cost us the Port game , probably the Geelong game and went close to stuffing us up against Gold Coast.

Bevo obviously has strengths but the gaps in his coaching are going unaddressed and will continue to repeat
Cheers mate. I think if he had some good pressure forwards to select from he'd have them in there. You can't put in what you don't have. Of the players you mentioned, they have all been in and out of the team apart from Richards. That indicates that Bev is not happy with them either but he doesn't have a multitude of options on the sidelines. We've been trying to find the right mix up forward for a while. This is also why I think Bruce holds his position week to week... his effort never wavers.

There were calls to change up the assistant coaching ranks in 2015 as well. It seemed to work fine in 2016 and those calls when quiet for a while.

That's not to say I think Bevo's selection has been perfect. I think mistakes have been made (playing Richards too long, selecting Gowers for a 2nd time for example) but some good decisions have been made also (dropping certain players to have them come back into the side playing good footy).
 

gimp!

XFM 104.9
Feb 20, 2010
5,452
4,544
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Doesn’t surprise me some can’t work out the difference between accepting mediocrity from absolute nobodies on an Internet forum, to accepting it from a Professional Sporting Organisation.

However, I’ve learnt to accept that many are happy to fall short and just live off moments instead of sustained success.

Oh, and the congratulatory back slaps from the lemmings just enforce this brave stance I guess? SB
How can one criticise another for accepting mediocrity without looking at their own backyard first? Clean your room, bucko.
 

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gimp!

XFM 104.9
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I agree with you MD. Great clubs just DO NOT ACCEPT MEDIOCRITY, and mediocrity can be an organisational cultural trait. Teams in Soccer/Football do not accept it in any way. look at the Real Madrid, Barca, Boca Juniors, Bayern. even when they win a championship and the style of play is not up to scratch they sack the coach. we should adopt that type of mentality. I know I am a bit off the mark, but emulating what the best do, is the only way to succeed. GO DOGS AND STEP ON MEDIOCRITY!!!
Maybe we could emulate what the best do and have an infinite amount of cash to chuck about. Anybody got infinite amounts of money floating around?
 

threenewpadlocks

Brownlow Medallist
Sep 10, 2012
10,857
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One criticism that I've read is that he's been unable to change or adapt since 2016.
We've actually completely morphed from a territory based game, focused on winning clearances, locking the ball in the fwd half and scoring through weight of numbers to a game based around turnovers in our back half and using slick ball movement to try score on the rebound. The game plan is completely different, so yeah forget that one.
I would argue that we've completely changed our game style since 2016.

2016 was about "total football" where our small forwards, and inside and outside mids could all rotate in those various positions and we would throw wave after wave of new player at the contest, meaning that we had a historically high contested possession differential in that season.

However by 2020 we went from the most rotating team to one of the least. Our midfield and forward line almost always play in set roles, and our midfield and centre bounce combination has the same small grouping of players. Players (think Mitch Wallis) play in one identical role for entirety of matches and seasons. We bring in weaker, inexperienced players (Roarke Smith) because we divide our 22 into subdivision roles, whereas in 2016 we virutally picked our best 22 and said "well if it is imbalanced on the day, we can rotate players into different positions until it works out".
 

josh the gent

The Pieman
Sep 25, 2008
2,233
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So back on topic then, can we get some decent chat or analysis going on Bevo's game plan failures?

One criticism that I've read is that he's been unable to change or adapt since 2016.
We've actually completely morphed from a territory based game, focused on winning clearances, locking the ball in the fwd half and scoring through weight of numbers to a game based around turnovers in our back half and using slick ball movement to try score on the rebound. The game plan is completely different, so yeah forget that one.

Another criticism is not playing two rucks. When our options are Trengove and Sweet, there's not many options there. Despite that, English has actually played pretty well as the sole ruck for a decent chunk of this season. The game on the weekend was an example of that.

Sticking with the jury's out theme... if we all agree that the list was rebuilt as the club has stated and it's too early to tell if that strategy was a good one. Isn't that actually on the list management strategy and nothing to do with Bevo?

So yeah, let's hear it guys. Start a discussion that runs a bit deeper than simply he's sh*te and not up to it. Try give your argument at least some sort of credibility
Tip - If you genuinely want a discussion, perhaps don’t be a snide w***er in all of your posts.

Last chance with me before you go on ignore.

Refer my OP, there are problems with our game plan. It works well under the Marvel Stadium roof, but throw in wet or windy conditions - or dewy conditions as we’ve seen in a lot of our games - and it comes apart.

We use the handball a lot, ranked 2nd for handpass and 16th for kicks. I think this results in our ball movement looking slick in close quarters, but even JJ handball receive then running in full flight is a lot slower than kicking the ball. This for me is why when we eventually kick the ball forward, it’s to a crowded area. It’s also why teams score slingshot against us. Ball movement is slow, everyone pushes up the ground, so 1 error and there is loads of open field for opponents to exploit.

Our ruck situation is ridiculous. We have (subjectively) one of the best midfields in the comp, who are constantly having to read the oppo ruck. 18th in hitouts by some distance. This is by coach’s design, could easily select Sweet or Trengove, but don’t. The list deficiencies in rucks are likely Bevo as well - doesn’t value the role in his team, and accordingly the active targeting of rucks through recruiting doesn’t happen.

Contested ball. This was our pillar of strength in 2015-16 (thanks Macca), but no longer - ranked 13th in contested ball this year. This exacerbates the issue with the ruck above.

Goalkicking accuracy, has been an issue for years, and not addressed under the Bevo regime. Unquestionably costs us wins every year. My view - this is caused from both lack of training (not that i know specifically, but I’ve heard enough views that it’s simply about putting in the work), and forward entries being impacted by slow ball movement.

Match committee selections. Numerous baffling examples of favourites getting selected - Gowers, Gardiner, etc. I’m not sure how not having our best 22 assists our effectiveness, but it must be part of the game plan cos it happens every single week.
 

Mattdougie

Brownlow Medallist
Jun 29, 2013
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Tip - If you genuinely want a discussion, perhaps don’t be a snide w***er in all of your posts.

Last chance with me before you go on ignore.

Refer my OP, there are problems with our game plan. It works well under the Marvel Stadium roof, but throw in wet or windy conditions - or dewy conditions as we’ve seen in a lot of our games - and it comes apart.

We use the handball a lot, ranked 2nd for handpass and 16th for kicks. I think this results in our ball movement looking slick in close quarters, but even JJ handball receive then running in full flight is a lot slower than kicking the ball. This for me is why when we eventually kick the ball forward, it’s to a crowded area. It’s also why teams score slingshot against us. Ball movement is slow, everyone pushes up the ground, so 1 error and there is loads of open field for opponents to exploit.

Our ruck situation is ridiculous. We have (subjectively) one of the best midfields in the comp, who are constantly having to read the oppo ruck. 18th in hitouts by some distance. This is by coach’s design, could easily select Sweet or Trengove, but don’t. The list deficiencies in rucks are likely Bevo as well - doesn’t value the role in his team, and accordingly the active targeting of rucks through recruiting doesn’t happen.

Contested ball. This was our pillar of strength in 2015-16 (thanks Macca), but no longer - ranked 13th in contested ball this year. This exacerbates the issue with the ruck above.

Goalkicking accuracy, has been an issue for years, and not addressed under the Bevo regime. Unquestionably costs us wins every year. My view - this is caused from both lack of training (not that i know specifically, but I’ve heard enough views that it’s simply about putting in the work), and forward entries being impacted by slow ball movement.

Match committee selections. Numerous baffling examples of favourites getting selected - Gowers, Gardiner, etc. I’m not sure how not having our best 22 assists our effectiveness, but it must be part of the game plan cos it happens every single week.
Just push the ignore mate

You will miss absolutely zero
 

CarnTheScray

The Dogfather
Jun 4, 2019
1,801
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Our ruck situation is ridiculous. We have (subjectively) one of the best midfields in the comp, who are constantly having to read the oppo ruck. 18th in hitouts by some distance. This is by coach’s design, could easily select Sweet or Trengove, but don’t. The list deficiencies in rucks are likely Bevo as well - doesn’t value the role in his team, and accordingly the active targeting of rucks through recruiting doesn’t happen.
Expanding on the ruck situation, Beveridge has said that Sweet is not up to AFL standard. English is a good marker and player around the ground but is bad in the ruck.

So the question is: why have we gone out and recruited two non AFL-standard ruckmen and kept them on our list?

(That question can be asked for not just rucks, but quite a few players on our list).
 

BEaston

Hungry
Oct 9, 2013
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Tip - If you genuinely want a discussion, perhaps don’t be a snide w***er in all of your posts.

Last chance with me before you go on ignore.

Refer my OP, there are problems with our game plan. It works well under the Marvel Stadium roof, but throw in wet or windy conditions - or dewy conditions as we’ve seen in a lot of our games - and it comes apart.

We use the handball a lot, ranked 2nd for handpass and 16th for kicks. I think this results in our ball movement looking slick in close quarters, but even JJ handball receive then running in full flight is a lot slower than kicking the ball. This for me is why when we eventually kick the ball forward, it’s to a crowded area. It’s also why teams score slingshot against us. Ball movement is slow, everyone pushes up the ground, so 1 error and there is loads of open field for opponents to exploit.

Our ruck situation is ridiculous. We have (subjectively) one of the best midfields in the comp, who are constantly having to read the oppo ruck. 18th in hitouts by some distance. This is by coach’s design, could easily select Sweet or Trengove, but don’t. The list deficiencies in rucks are likely Bevo as well - doesn’t value the role in his team, and accordingly the active targeting of rucks through recruiting doesn’t happen.

Contested ball. This was our pillar of strength in 2015-16 (thanks Macca), but no longer - ranked 13th in contested ball this year. This exacerbates the issue with the ruck above.

Goalkicking accuracy, has been an issue for years, and not addressed under the Bevo regime. Unquestionably costs us wins every year. My view - this is caused from both lack of training (not that i know specifically, but I’ve heard enough views that it’s simply about putting in the work), and forward entries being impacted by slow ball movement.

Match committee selections. Numerous baffling examples of favourites getting selected - Gowers, Gardiner, etc. I’m not sure how not having our best 22 assists our effectiveness, but it must be part of the game plan cos it happens every single week.
Appreciate the personal abuse mate. Class right there.
I've responded to all your posts on the topic of discussion. I've never gone the man like you've just done which is pretty interesting noting your first post to me in this thread where you quoted me from a discussion with another member :
I’ll put it in your terms, i wouldn’t want to play footy beside those who play the man when challenged. Go join gws?
I mean and now you're talking about being snide? That post is the first exchange I've ever had with you.
Seems to me, you're the one that's resorted to playing the man when their views are challenged.

Anyway, I read your OP a few times, it said nothing specific about the game plan. All it says is that it doesn't work in non-ideal conditions. You never went into what "it" was or which aspects of it weren't working. You also mentioned that Bev hasn't adapted the game plan since 2016, which IMO is completely not true. Our gameplan is completely different now as I went over in a previous post and was added to by 3np above.

Ball movement... well I don't watch as many games each week as I used to, but I actually think we move the ball pretty fast compared to most teams. I don't really have any stats to back that up though... I thought I remembered reading some analysis on this a while back but can't remember where. Anyway, opinion only but compared to most sides I think we're actually good in this area. Teams kicking to crowded forward lines is a common thing in the league now. The fact is, teams are just a lot more better at defending than ever before. Where we've got into trouble with our ball movement is actually execution. It's that slightly missed kick or handball that then turns into a turnover and because we've all run forward hard we get scored on easily when that happens. I think with more experience we will get more poise and better decision making to reduce those errors.
With regards to running hard offensively, it's because we're actually a fair poor 1v1 team overall. Apart from maybe Wallis and Naughton there's not many that you'd back in to win one. We actually NEED to score through overlap run and getting 1 extra player around the ball and getting it into that person's hands. Yes that means we get scored on when we stuff up, but also means we're more likely to score. It's also a more positive gameplan which I think hastens a team's development. I would much rather a young team develop by playing an aggressive style of game and wear the mistakes, rather than play it safe with a negating style (see Melbourne). I just don't think the players develop as well or as quickly.

Regarding the ruck, do you really think Trengove or Sweet are going to do any better than English? I don't think so. 4 years ago when Trengove was in his prime he mostly rucked for Port and I don't think his output was significantly better than English's now. I think he would help with clearances compared to Tim but we'd lose out on his around the ground ability. Not to mention that it would dampen English's development time as well as depriving the team of another runner which is crucial to our game plan. Even if one of those guys had been selected, do you think they are going to be playing a different role in the team or we would change the game plan around them? No. They just play as a less-effective version of English in our current game plan.

I disagree completely that the list deficiencies are either Bevo's fault or by design from list management. It's not easy to just grab a number 1 ruckman from somewhere. If list management didn't value ruckmen I don't think we would have selected English with a first rounder in the first place. We would just keep recycling spuds like Bellchambers who can be picked up cheap every year.
We're now going in list management territory (unrelated to Bev's coaching), but again, last off season was the first year since 2016 we decided to be active in mature age recruiting through FA or trade. Prior to that we were rebuilding through the draft. So based on 2019's results I think we were all pretty much in agreement that KPD and KPF were our main concerns. The club agreed and targeted those areas. We liked our young core so weren't really looking to trade out players, draft picks were the only assets to use. It's pretty much next to impossible to trade in 3 best 22 players using draft picks alone. In any case, English had shown a lot of promise last year and they probably thought targeting another no1 ruckman made little sense.
So, on that point I don't really see where we should have brought another ruckman onto the list. Now, this off season might be different. The club might look at English now as a second ruck/utility and target someone to fill that role as a number 1 ruck. We'll see, but I wouldn't be surprised to see them back in English and his development either.

Contested ball, yes we're worse at it. Do you think that's by design? I can guarantee Bev would want us winning every contested ball. What do you think it is about our game plan makes us worse at it? Possibly our positioning? In 2016 we had Dahl and Wallis in the midfield getting 10 a game. Picken averaged around 8 a game. Jong, Stevens and Clay around the same that year. All of those are gone, injured or playing in a different position this year. Dunkley has upped his CP rate to compensate somewhat, Smith does a bit but overall the personnel just aren't there. That's the main factor to me.

Goalkicking, I think it's improved but can always get better.

I feel like despite you saying that we haven't adapted the game plan since 2016, the points you raise kinda indicate that a 2016 gameplan is what you want to go back to. To me, Bev has built a game plan around the list we currently have and the things you lament are things we are just not good at due to the personnel available. I think if anything this thread should be about list management as that is the crux of the issues being presented.

Our list has a gamut of flanker types, they are generally lightly built, good runners and skilled. So our game plan follows that. We are relatively poor at all contested aspects of the game but rate highly in free running and quality possession (while not always executing properly). That's why we enact such a risky offensive game that looks bad when it doesn't come off. We lack interceptors but have good ball users in our back half, we try to bring oppo ball to ground and get it in the hands of our good users. We try to run hard to get a player overlap. This is evidenced pretty clearly, we are top 5 in the comp for bounces, disposal efficiency, low turnovers and low clangers. We are bottom 5 in the comp for a lot of contested stats; tackling, CP rate. Despite that, we still aren't too bad for total clearances (could get a boost in the next two weeks).

TLDR: Bev has implemented a game plan since last season to play to the strengths of the list, that is; hard running, disposal chains, and creating overlap players from the defensive half. It started coming together at the end of last year and at points this year, but often execution has failed. I think this is due to the inexperience of the list. The common criticisms of Bev's coaching are more to do with list management or the personnel available. Getting rid of him would be ridiculous after two winning seasons, and I would bet the club would think the same.
 

grassman75

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I legitimately worry that the club thinks like some of the people in here.

An unnecessary 7 year rebuild after a A flag seems acceptable to many of them.

I’ve said for years it’s part of our problem, we accept mediocrity for too long too easily.

The hawks cats and eagles fans would never accept this for that long. By god they make finals and lose and still scream for change
I hear you Matt, but can you honestly say that we be better off with what Dahl and Stringer are churning out at the moment? I didn't agree with getitng rid of them at the time, but hindsight is showing the correct call was made. Yes there is still plenty of peanuts on the list, but i think we will be set up for sustasined success from next year on. By success i mean regualrly contending and hopefully a few more flags. Heck weve had a pretty sh*t season and we are still a chance to make it this year and on our day could knock off just about anyone in the 8 (not saying we will, but we wil scare a few)
 

Charlie Bucket

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Tip - If you genuinely want a discussion, perhaps don’t be a snide w***er in all of your posts.

Last chance with me before you go on ignore.

Refer my OP, there are problems with our game plan. It works well under the Marvel Stadium roof, but throw in wet or windy conditions - or dewy conditions as we’ve seen in a lot of our games - and it comes apart.

We use the handball a lot, ranked 2nd for handpass and 16th for kicks. I think this results in our ball movement looking slick in close quarters, but even JJ handball receive then running in full flight is a lot slower than kicking the ball. This for me is why when we eventually kick the ball forward, it’s to a crowded area. It’s also why teams score slingshot against us. Ball movement is slow, everyone pushes up the ground, so 1 error and there is loads of open field for opponents to exploit.

Our ruck situation is ridiculous. We have (subjectively) one of the best midfields in the comp, who are constantly having to read the oppo ruck. 18th in hitouts by some distance. This is by coach’s design, could easily select Sweet or Trengove, but don’t. The list deficiencies in rucks are likely Bevo as well - doesn’t value the role in his team, and accordingly the active targeting of rucks through recruiting doesn’t happen.

Contested ball. This was our pillar of strength in 2015-16 (thanks Macca), but no longer - ranked 13th in contested ball this year. This exacerbates the issue with the ruck above.

Goalkicking accuracy, has been an issue for years, and not addressed under the Bevo regime. Unquestionably costs us wins every year. My view - this is caused from both lack of training (not that i know specifically, but I’ve heard enough views that it’s simply about putting in the work), and forward entries being impacted by slow ball movement.

Match committee selections. Numerous baffling examples of favourites getting selected - Gowers, Gardiner, etc. I’m not sure how not having our best 22 assists our effectiveness, but it must be part of the game plan cos it happens every single week.
I hadn’t actually realised until now that you were the one who started this thread.

What happens from here once we give Bev the boot?
Who’s top of your list for his replacement? Assistants? What’s your time frame for this list to be up to the standard expected by yourself with the new coach on board?
Which players move on?

Where to from here Josh?
 
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Dogs_r_barking

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It's absolutely disgusting that Cavarra got dropped for Dickson. Absolutely disgusting
Dicko is or was one of the smartest forwards around, it would appear the cliff came quicker than the club anticipated. But having an experienced mature player in against a mature team like Geelong instead of a player that has not played 5 games yet is not disgusting.
 

Mattdougie

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Jun 29, 2013
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I hear you Matt, but can you honestly say that we be better off with what Dahl and Stringer are churning out at the moment? I didn't agree with getitng rid of them at the time, but hindsight is showing the correct call was made. Yes there is still plenty of peanuts on the list, but i think we will be set up for sustasined success from next year on. By success i mean regualrly contending and hopefully a few more flags. Heck weve had a pretty sh*t season and we are still a chance to make it this year and on our day could knock off just about anyone in the 8 (not saying we will, but we wil scare a few)
I’ve said since it happened that moving those blokes on the way it was done broke the spirit of the group as much as anything.

it’s impossible to say if we would be better or worse with Jake and Dahl, but Jake begged to stay, he has zero interest being at at bombers. Dahl is best 22 in a flag contender.
I don’t agree with your positive opinion on scaring anyone on the 8, this year has shown when we play them we fall short but pests hope you are right IF WE MAKE IT
 

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