Beyond the GF – Why the MCG Contract doesn’t pass the Stink Test

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Kwality

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Yeah, that is my point.

It is the crowd that is the biggest factor "ground familiarity and conditions" it is an indoor stadium with exactly the same dimensions.

You reckon an American would expect anything less that 95% crowd support at a home game?

What are MCG home game W % in regular season? Compare that to GF W %....it will fall away, as the home advantage is reduced.
Until travel is recorded separately to 'away' its pointless.
 

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Demonic Ascent

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There is no way your 2021 final will be asterisked to identify unearned advantage from home ground rule.

No flag has an asterisk, it's only sad sooks online that try (and fail) to denigrate these achievements.
 

doppleganger

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Until travel is recorded separately to 'away' its pointless.
LoL, even your wowser mate posted a link that detailed
  • Travel fatigue — there is no real difference in winning percentage based on distance traveled
And will you WA wowsers make your mind up.

You also claim that teams like Hawthorn and Melbourne supposedly enjoy an advantage when they sell "home" games and end up travelling?? The old advantageous travelling!!

Do Chelsea enjoy a home advantage at Stamford Bridge against Arsenal?? Clearly the answer is yes, and it is because "home advantage" and the "away disadvantage" is not a result of travel.
 

Rob

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The MCG hosts ~ 45 H&A games each year, including the overwhelming majority of the "BLOCKBUSTER" games that they heavily publicise.

Where are they going to play these games if not at the G??

Do the AFL want the Great Southern Stand upgraded to ensure that AFL and club members have up to date facilities for the 45 AFL games per year at the G??

MCC happy to take on the $1b debt to upgrade, in return they want GFs at the G.

It works for the overwhelming majority of AFL stakeholders, except for a couple of the new franchises from out West.
Ultimately the bulk of what you describe should not be an AFL problem, it should be a club problem. Outside of finals, clubs host games, not the AFL. So why are the AFL signing stadium deals for club hosted games? They should be completely staying out of it outside of approving grounds for AFL use.
 

doppleganger

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Ultimately the bulk of what you describe should not be an AFL problem, it should be a club problem. Outside of finals, clubs host games, not the AFL. So why are the AFL signing stadium deals for club hosted games? They should be completely staying out of it outside of approving grounds for AFL use.
The AFL embarked on a ground rationalisation policy in Melbourne in the 80s and 90s.

The AFL pushed Carlton out of Carlton, Hawks and Saints out of Waverley and didn't want to help upgrade the likes of VicPark and Whitten Oval as they wanted "BLOCKBUSTERS" with all of the corporate boxes at Etihad or the G.

The same "stadium deals" dictate the shizen H&A fixture given to Melbourne based teams since Etihad came in....where effectively the AFL removed "home advantage" from Melbourne based clubs.

And you have some WA fans who think that they should also be able to dictate where some of their away games are played....no surprise really when Port have been doing that for years!
 

Rob

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The AFL embarked on a ground rationalisation policy in Melbourne in the 80s and 90s.

The AFL pushed Carlton out of Carlton, Hawks and Saints out of Waverley and didn't want to help upgrade the likes of VicPark and Whitten Oval as they wanted "BLOCKBUSTERS" with all of the corporate boxes at Etihad or the G.

The same "stadium deals" dictate the shizen H&A fixture given to Melbourne based teams since Etihad came in....where effectively the AFL removed "home advantage" from Melbourne based clubs.

Whatever the reason, that doesn't justify the AFL signing up with stadiums and guaranteeing club games now. It's regional state league thinking.

I don't mind the AFL facilitating agreements, but if the MCG wants 45 games a year then they should be signing clubs up to play those games, not the AFL.
 

doppleganger

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Whatever the reason, that doesn't justify the AFL signing up with stadiums and guaranteeing club games now. It's regional state league thinking.

I don't mind the AFL facilitating agreements, but if the MCG wants 45 games a year then they should be signing clubs up to play those games, not the AFL.
Ever since the VFL built Waverley in the 70s, the league has dictated certain numbers of games were to be played at league venues.

And when Etihad came along in 2000 even MCG tenants like Melbourne and Richmond were forced to play games at Etihad. Collingwood have to play 2 "home" games at Etihad every year....not by choice, but to facilitate a stadium deal.

It was national expansion thinking, just wanting "BLOCKBUSTERS" and the commercial $$ over sporting integrity.

Stadium deals give a large advantage to non-Melbourne teams ever since in H&A, the stats show the over representation in top2 and top4 finishes.
 

Rob

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Ever since the VFL built Waverley in the 70s, the league has dictated certain numbers of games were to be played at league venues.

And when Etihad came along in 2000 even MCG tenants like Melbourne and Richmond were forced to play games at Etihad. Collingwood have to play 2 "home" games at Etihad every year....not by choice, but to facilitate a stadium deal.

It was national expansion thinking, just wanting "BLOCKBUSTERS" and the commercial $$ over sporting integrity.


I know all of this, and I think it's bullshit that it comtinues. The league buiding Waverley wasn't unlike what happened in WA and SA, with the league having a headquarters venue where the match of the week was played. Like I said, it's regional state league thinking. When the AFL went national, they should have divested itself of all stadiums and put all stadium deals in the hands of the clubs.

Stadium deals give a large advantage to non-Melbourne teams ever since in H&A, the stats show the over representation in top2 and top4 finishes.

Lol, there are a few Melbourne teams that would go broke if they had the same stadium deal as Optus Stadium. Personally, I think the current setup probably disadvantages the big Melbourne clubs, but it's extremely generous to the small Melbourne clubs.
 

doppleganger

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I know all of this, and I think it's bullshit that it comtinues. The league buiding Waverley wasn't unlike what happened in WA and SA, with the league having a headquarters venue where the match of the week was played. Like I said, it's regional state league thinking. When the AFL went national, they should have divested itself of all stadiums and put all stadium deals in the hands of the clubs.



Lol, there are a few Melbourne teams that would go broke if they had the same stadium deal as Optus Stadium. Personally, I think the current setup probably disadvantages the big Melbourne clubs, but it's extremely generous to the small Melbourne clubs.
The AFL succeeded in killing off suburban amateur football.

It is now a commercially driven beast, where "BLOCKBUSTERS" are given stand alone TV slots to cater for the majority of the national audience.

And no, wasn't talking about the stadium $, the fact that Melbourne teams are forced to sell home games because of shite stadium deals is the problem...it gives non-Melbourne teams a leg-up in H&A, the stats bear this out.

If you believe in home advantage it becomes pretty obvious that will be the result when you dilute the advantage of a small subset of teams only.
 

Grin

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Id just love to debate you on this subject against three elite athletes from american football, basketball and uk soccer.

Absolutely love watching you trying to justify your bullshit on how playing grand finals at your home ground isnt at advantage and how hard it is travelling 5 times a year is tougher than 10.

Be funking hilarious
Lol.
You're so unhinged and bereft of evidence that you've given up any pretence of reason and logic and you're fantasising about getting your imaginary big mates on to me.
Arguing with you takes me back to junior primary school.
 

Grin

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MCG Grand Final with a Vic Tennant club would have at least 75% of the crowd against a non Vic Club.
Any evidence?
Of course not. You never do.

The one where I reckon that was true was the Richmond vs GWS Grand Final. But Richmond support would have massively outweighed GWS where ever the game was played.
 

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bh90210fan

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The AFL succeeded in killing off suburban amateur football.

It is now a commercially driven beast, where "BLOCKBUSTERS" are given stand alone TV slots to cater for the majority of the national audience.

And no, wasn't talking about the stadium $, the fact that Melbourne teams are forced to sell home games because of sh*te stadium deals is the problem...it gives non-Melbourne teams a leg-up in H&A, the stats bear this out.

If you believe in home advantage it becomes pretty obvious that will be the result when you dilute the advantage of a small subset of teams only.
The stats actually show North and Hawks have a greater winning % vs Non Victorian sides in Tasmania than they do in Melbourne. Gone through this before a million times

They also show Victorian sides have been slightly over represented in the top 8 over the last decade pre - Covid

Then they show Victorian sides still seem to be gaining home ground advantage in grand finals due to crowd influence, as they haven’t lost a free kick count against a non Victorian opponent since 2001 - that’s 11 grand finals in a row. A key indicator to measuring the effect of hga.
 

Kwality

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LoL, even your wowser mate posted a link that detailed
  • Travel fatigue — there is no real difference in winning percentage based on distance traveled
And will you WA wowsers make your mind up.

You also claim that teams like Hawthorn and Melbourne supposedly enjoy an advantage when they sell "home" games and end up travelling?? The old advantageous travelling!!

Do Chelsea enjoy a home advantage at Stamford Bridge against Arsenal?? Clearly the answer is yes, and it is because "home advantage" and the "away disadvantage" is not a result of travel.

What you clearly articulate: they sell "home" games and end up travelling?
The 1920s version of home & away is long gone, e.g the Suns home game in China, didnt the Saints play a home game there ? The away team was always Port.
How was that recorded in your 'home' & away' stats . Nothing to see there??

Are you simply stuck in the days of Vic Park, Prince's Park, when travel was a ride down the highway in an old bus ?
I am well aware my own clubs advantage is playing 10 games against travelling clubs where minimal crowd support is a factor - remember the brothers Scott complaining about the passion of the crowds in Perth.
 

Coolangatta

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If I had it my way, it'd be 2023 AO, 2025 SCG or Accor, 2027 Gabba, 2029 Optus, 2031 AO, 2033 SCG, Accor or new stadium, 2035 new Gabba. MCG every other year.

Derby GFs in teams home state, doable if backup preparations begin as early as August and bye before GF.

It'd be fairer because roughly half the teams are Vic and there'll be more non-Vic teams.

But it ain't gonna happen.
 

Stabby McGee

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Geelong have been working for a similar model at Sleepy Hollow - nearly there.
I’m quite neutral in this. I live in rural NSW these days and work weekends so getting to H&A games is a once in a blue moon thing, and a grand final almost impossible. But if I did manage to fluke a ticket I’d go to watch my boys no matter where it was played. I thought Perth put on a great spectacle and would have loved to have been there.
The MCG - as much as I love it - isn’t the sacred cow it once was... but the contract is signed and that’s that. It’s a pure waste of energy wishing otherwise
 

Kwality

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I’m quite neutral in this. I live in rural NSW these days and work weekends so getting to H&A games is a once in a blue moon thing, and a grand final almost impossible. But if I did manage to fluke a ticket I’d go to watch my boys no matter where it was played. I thought Perth put on a great spectacle and would have loved to have been there.
The MCG - as much as I love it - isn’t the sacred cow it once was... but the contract is signed and that’s that. It’s a pure waste of energy wishing otherwise

I'm not so sure ... many hope its that simple. The ball is in the hands of the Commission & one day it will be held to account. It cant continue to hide in the same closet as the AFL media.
With HQ in Melbourne the administration have a good reason to want to protect their own patch.
 

Papa G

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Any evidence?
Of course not. You never do.

The one where I reckon that was true was the Richmond vs GWS Grand Final. But Richmond support would have massively outweighed GWS where ever the game was played.

Here is the allocation of the last GF at the MCG


Forget that its GWS, the allocations are the same, let's go back 2 years and say it was Adeaide v Richmond. Adelaide even have the bigger supporter base.

17,000 go to each clubs members. Fine. Even Keel so far.

Now it gets interesting

MCG membership: 23,000 according to that article. How many Richmond supporting MCG member are their compared to Adelaide? Sure there definitely would be a fair few neutrals in the MCC but you'd think every Tigers MCC member would find a way to get in. Lets give them half the MCC Reserve Lets call it 11,500 tigers fans to say 500 Crows fans and the other 11,000 neutrals.

Okay now we're sitting at 38500 to 17500.

Lets halve the Allocation to of AFL members to 18,000. From the article Gold AFL Members of competing clubs are given preference. How many AFL members do you reckon Adelaide have compared to Richmond? AFL members are also transferable. So how much easier is it for a Richmond supporter, living in the same city as 99% of AFL members, find someone friend family or otherwise to give them their ticket?

Let's give 11500 to Richmond, 500 to Adelaide and 6000 to the neutrals.

Now we are sitting at 50,000 Richmond supporters to 18,000 Adelaide supporters

4000 Medallion club members. Being a Melbourne thing, you expect almost all of these would be Melbourne based. I'm sure these tickets too could be farmed out to a local you know if you, as a say Saints supporter doesn't want to go. Are you more likely to have friends or family that are Tigers or Crows supporters? Exactly. So let's give 2000 of these tickets to Tigers fans, 1800 to neutrals and 200 to Crows fans.

52,000 to 18,200 now.

5000 to competing clubs? They tend to resell a lot of these. Lets split this so let's give this 1500 to each of the Tigers and Crows and 2000 neutrals.

53500 to19700.

Lets give 2000 to Government, Dignitaries and Sponsors, which whilst a lot of neutrals, given the Vic Govts running of the show there would be a heavy bias to the local side. Lets 1400 neutrals, 500 Richmond, 100 Adelaide.

54000 to 19700.

Leaving 12,000 Corporate seats

Hard to judge but again a bias to the locals because they're in town any rate. Lets go with 4000 Tigers, 2000 Crows and 6000 neutrals.

58000 tigers, 21700 Crows and the rest neutrals. Whilst educated guesstimates im pretty sure I wouldn't be far off the mark. So in this instance, and pretty much every instance when a WA or SA team plays a Vic MCG Tennant club, that Tennant club supporters will outnumber them 3 to 1. Which my Chimpy friend equals massive home ground advantage.
 

Rob

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The AFL succeeded in killing off suburban amateur football.

It is now a commercially driven beast, where "BLOCKBUSTERS" are given stand alone TV slots to cater for the majority of the national audience.

And no, wasn't talking about the stadium $, the fact that Melbourne teams are forced to sell home games because of sh*te stadium deals is the problem...it gives non-Melbourne teams a leg-up in H&A, the stats bear this out.

If you believe in home advantage it becomes pretty obvious that will be the result when you dilute the advantage of a small subset of teams only.

I assume by "shite stadium deals" you mean the inability of some Melbourne clubs to fill seats in Melbourne? When you're only expecting 15k a game, most of which are paying GA prices (or less thanks to cheap memberships), it's not the fault of the stadium deal that you can't turn a profit. Especially when you're paying no rent.

Although are you actually agreeing with me that the AFL should not be the primary entity signing stadium deals? Let each club negotiate with stadium operators, or even pool with other clubs and build their own.
 

Senor M

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Lets halve the Allocation to of AFL members to 18,000. From the article Gold AFL Members of competing clubs are given preference. How many AFL members do you reckon Adelaide have compared to Richmond? AFL members are also transferable. So how much easier is it for a Richmond supporter, living in the same city as 99% of AFL members, find someone friend family or otherwise to give them their ticket?

AFL membership is not transferable.

Thanks for proving that you have no idea how the membership works mate :thumbsu:
 

The_Wookie

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I can see the side of the argument for keeping the grand final in victoria from a tradition and commercial standpoint, but the idea that Victorian clubs dont have a home ground advantage at the MCG against non vic clubs in a grand final is patently nonsense and the worst argument that is made against the grand final moving.
 
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