Keeper Lg. Big Footy Dynasty - 2013 List Managment Thread

[mrpez]

I'd like to make a suggestion for the 2014/2015 off-season. I think we should introduce some form of draft lottery for the teams that miss out on the finals.

My reasoning: The difference in value of having pick 1 versus pick 6 is quite substantial. I don't think any coach in this league would deliberately lose games or tank to get the number 1 pick, but I do believe it is feasible that coaches would not do everything in their power to win games. In my own case, i wonder that if i am mathematically unable to make the finals by round 14, i would simply be better off delisting a player such as Dempster who will unliklely still be playing in 2015.

 

[StAnselm]

Final draft results have been updated on page 1

Thanks. You've doubled up on 43-56, though.

 

[StAnselm]

Final draft results have been updated on page 1

Oh, and it's missing 29-42.

 

[L_W_P]

Will fix up shortly.

 

[L_W_P]

I'd like to make a suggestion for the 2014/2015 off-season. I think we should introduce some form of draft lottery for the teams that miss out on the finals.

My reasoning: The difference in value of having pick 1 versus pick 6 is quite substantial. I don't think any coach in this league would deliberately lose games or tank to get the number 1 pick, but I do believe it is feasible that coaches would not do everything in their power to win games. In my own case, i wonder that if i am mathematically unable to make the finals by round 14, i would simply be better off delisting a player such as Dempster who will unliklely still be playing in 2015.

My only issue with a lottery in our league is that I can't see a way to make it transparent.

We can use online number generators but how can we ensure the results?

 

[mrpez]

My only issue with a lottery in our league is that I can't see a way to make it transparent.

We can use online number generators but how can we ensure the results?

I think there are a few fun ways to do it. Just of the top of my head, grand final crowd.

14th place gets last two digits of crowd number ending in: 00 to 15, 13th place gets 16 to 30, 12th place gets 31 to 45 etc. We could even load it, so that teams nearer to the bottom have more chance of getting the no.1 pick.

 

[Rockford]

Oh, and it's missing 29-42.

No one important got picked between 29 and 42 though

 

[Rockford]

I think there are a few fun ways to do it. Just of the top of my head, grand final crowd.

14th place gets last two digits of crowd number ending in: 00 to 15, 13th place gets 16 to 30, 12th place gets 31 to 45 etc. We could even load it, so that teams nearer to the bottom have more chance of getting the no.1 pick.

I don't mind the idea but at the same time I think it's better that whoever finishes last gets the #1 pick etc... No one is going to tank, and if they did they'd get called on it. If you get to round 14, think you're not going to make Finals and then de-list Dempster then I think that's fair enough. You need to do what's right for your list longer term, and it wouldn't make sense to keep someone like Dempster for the remaining 5 H&A games when there's potentially a FA out there that'll improve you long term. The only time I think anyone would get called up on it is if they were leaving known stat producers on their bench for less likely stat producers. And even then there's extenuating circumstances (players returning from injury and likely to get the vest etc..).

 

[Drew23]

I think there are a few fun ways to do it. Just of the top of my head, grand final crowd.

14th place gets last two digits of crowd number ending in: 00 to 15, 13th place gets 16 to 30, 12th place gets 31 to 45 etc. We could even load it, so that teams nearer to the bottom have more chance of getting the no.1 pick.

How would the other picks then be decided

 

[L_W_P]

Draft has been fixed.

I think bringing forward the cut off for list changes (trades, FA moves etc) to round 11 or 12 would also make tanking alot harder. If people weren't picking their best players it would be pretty obvious.

Happy to do a lottery IF we can make if tranparent for all.

 

[Zim^zuM]

I don't mind the idea but at the same time I think it's better that whoever finishes last gets the #1 pick etc... No one is going to tank, and if they did they'd get called on it. If you get to round 14, think you're not going to make Finals and then de-list Dempster then I think that's fair enough. You need to do what's right for your list longer term, and it wouldn't make sense to keep someone like Dempster for the remaining 5 H&A games when there's potentially a FA out there that'll improve you long term. The only time I think anyone would get called up on it is if they were leaving known stat producers on their bench for less likely stat producers. And even then there's extenuating circumstances (players returning from injury and likely to get the vest etc..).

We can only sign 5 players anyways. By the time somone is mathematically out they may have used some too. And it's not all one way. If you delist Dempster a top side then has a chance to add some depth. And as rockford said anyone tanking will get pulled up very quick

 

[Zim^zuM]

I don't mind the idea but at the same time I think it's better that whoever finishes last gets the #1 pick etc... No one is going to tank, and if they did they'd get called on it. If you get to round 14, think you're not going to make Finals and then de-list Dempster then I think that's fair enough. You need to do what's right for your list longer term, and it wouldn't make sense to keep someone like Dempster for the remaining 5 H&A games when there's potentially a FA out there that'll improve you long term. The only time I think anyone would get called up on it is if they were leaving known stat producers on their bench for less likely stat producers. And even then there's extenuating circumstances (players returning from injury and likely to get the vest etc..).

We can only sign 5 players anyways. By the time somone is mathematically out they may have used some too. And it's not all one way. If you delist Dempster a top side then has a chance to add some depth. And as rockford said anyone tanking will get pulled up very quick

 

[mrpez]

My odds of making the finals are probably pretty slim. Where is my incentive to win as many games as I can, when there is such a large carrot dangling in front of me not to. Why should a team with better younger talent, and better long-term prospects, who is not fielding a side to be as competitive as possible in 2014, get better access to the best of the 2015 draftees? (talking hypothetically of course)

In round 15 I play Drew (who is competing for a top 2 spot) with Dempster, trying my hardest to win so I can scrape into finals.
In round 17 I play Rockford (who is competing for a top 2 spot) without Dempster, who I have delisted in order to 'prepare' for the new season, and thus Rockford has an easier time disposing of me.

Besides, a draft lottery just adds to the off-season excitement!

 

[mrpez]

How would the other picks then be decided

Good point! First pick crowd in Semi-final 1, 2nd pick crowd in semi-final 2 etc.

 

[Zim^zuM]

My odds of making the finals are probably pretty slim. Where is my incentive to win as many games as I can, when there is such a large carrot dangling in front of me not to. Why should a team with better younger talent, and better long-term prospects, who is not fielding a side to be as competitive as possible in 2014, get better access to the best of the 2015 draftees? (talking hypothetically of course)

In round 15 I play Drew (who is competing for a top 2 spot) with Dempster, trying my hardest to win so I can scrape into finals.
In round 17 I play Rockford (who is competing for a top 2 spot) without Dempster, who I have delisted in order to 'prepare' for the new season, and thus Rockford has an easier time disposing of me.

Besides, a draft lottery just adds to the off-season excitement!

Dont think its that much of an issue tbh. If someone did something against the spirit of the game like delribatly fielding donuts they would probably be replaced. In the issue of dropping dempster it's just how the cookie crumbles lol. Dempster could also get injured and not play. A 50/50 call by an opponent or yourself can go wrong. Subs. In fact Rockford could trade dempter in and his stats might be the difference. Too many variables not worth worrying about.

The only time it's an issue if players are delribatly losing games. To which everyone would know and take action. Having a lottery could also be insentive for someone in 8th coming into the last round to lose. Because instead of just being bundled out in week one they can try score 1st spot in the draft.

Though majority rules I guess. If 13 coaches dont agree with me a lottery could be possible lol. In the event of that I would only make the first round a lottery. Then round 2 etc continues with ladder position not lottery position.

 

[Rockford]

In round 15 I play Drew (who is competing for a top 2 spot) with Dempster, trying my hardest to win so I can scrape into finals.
In round 17 I play Rockford (who is competing for a top 2 spot) without Dempster, who I have delisted in order to 'prepare' for the new season, and thus Rockford has an easier time disposing of me.

Besides, a draft lottery just adds to the off-season excitement!

Based on that theory though we should all have to play exactly the same side as we field in round 1?

I don't think it's so big an issue as to need "resolving" with a draft lottery. I think it could be fun though and wouldn't have an issue with it in that respect. I think any perceived lack of fairness that might come from someone trying to shave their stats to lose matches is more than off-set by the potential of the guy who narrowly missed out on Finals (richcogs) ending up with the first pick in the draft and the guy who didn't win a game all season and finished last (L_W_P) ending up with the 6th pick in the draft as a result of the lottery. Those of us who have finished bottom 4 for consecutive seasons don't need things to be more interesting while we're trying to claw our way off the bottom

 

[Zim^zuM]

Based on that theory though we should all have to play exactly the same side as we field in round 1?

I don't think it's so big an issue as to need "resolving" with a draft lottery. I think it could be fun though and wouldn't have an issue with it in that respect. I think any perceived lack of fairness that might come from someone trying to shave their stats to lose matches is more than off-set by the potential of the guy who narrowly missed out on Finals (richcogs) ending up with the first pick in the draft and the guy who didn't win a game all season and finished last (L_W_P) ending up with the 6th pick in the draft as a result of the lottery. Those of us who have finished bottom 4 for consecutive seasons don't need things to be more interesting while we're trying to claw our way off the bottom

Like I have thought with the REAl debate in the afl I would group the lottery into a few groups. Wouldnt work as well in our league but id have a lottery with the bottom 3 for pick one then the next 3 for picks 4-6. Meaning only the bottom 3 can get pick one and not a team that just missed finals. But with the nature of the draft and its purpose there is always going to be grey areas. Because then 4th last has a reason to tank. I think you just deal with it lol. If a problem arises it would get noticed for sure, atm I see no problem. Pick one is a nice bonus. But it's not like pick 2,3,4,5 arent any good either.

To add in order for a lottery to work together with equalisation bottom teams would have to have a better chance at the lottery. So if you had a hat 9th would get one spot, 10th 2, 11th 3 and so on. Meaning you still can tank to get a better chance. And if you dont go that way the equalisation part gets lost in it and thats the whole point in a draft. Well in the AFL anyways.

 

[mrpez]

All good arguments guys. I'll get off my soapbox, and leave it into the hands of our fellow league members and dear leader to decide the fate of the lottery.

Those of us who have finished bottom 4 for consecutive seasons don't need things to be more interesting while we're trying to claw our way off the bottom

Don't forget that i'm well entrenched in that group, whereas i suspect you'll be leaving us this season for good to go and play with the cool kids

 

[Rockford]

All good arguments guys. I'll get off my soapbox, and leave it into the hands of our fellow league members and dear leader to decide the fate of the lottery.

Don't forget that i'm well entrenched in that group, whereas i suspect you'll be leaving us this season for good to go and play with the cool kids

Oh mrpez, I'll never really leave you guys. There'll always be a part of the Raiders in the bottom 4. I thought last season I might get to see a top 8 finish, that didn't work out so well. Maybe 2014 is there year

 

[Zim^zuM]

in a few seasons I think rockford wont see the bottom until his kids are in uni

 

[L_W_P]

The other thing to remember is that we are playing a fantasy game so Pick 1 means alot of different things to people. Martin could turn out to be a super start player in the AFL, but he may be no better than Kolodjashnij or Billings or even Lewis Taylor from a fantasy perspective. Wait a sec.....

This is a hard game to predict even at the best of times. TomFC picked up Ablett, Mumford and McPharlin after winning the flag and then fell to 7th the next year. and while draft picks are nice, we all value things on a different scale. Drew got the #9 pick in Salem at 24 (a great get on paper) but then took a gamble on a kid from the Lions academy (Freeman) with his next pick at 29 when there were plenty of 'rated' players still sitting there.

Trading is more important in this game than drafting in my opinion. Even the FA choices can make or break a club - I cut Lewis Johnston and Mitch Grigg during last season

 

[Rockford]

The other thing to remember is that we are playing a fantasy game so Pick 1 means alot of different things to people. Martin could turn out to be a super start player in the AFL, but he may be no better than Kolodjashnij or Billings or even Lewis Taylor from a fantasy perspective. Wait a sec....

I almost posted something very similar earlier with respect to the difference between pick 1 and pick 6. Pick 1 as the ultimate "reward" is a bit of a misnomer anyway, there's as much likelihood that Aish will supersede Martin, Hogan, Boyd, McDonald, Kolodjashnij and Kelly as the best player in those top 6 picks as there is that Martin will be the best. All pick 1 or 2 (or any pick really) gives you is the option to take a given player before the player after you makes their selection.

Trading is more important in this game than drafting in my opinion. Even the FA choices can make or break a club - I cut Lewis Johnston and Mitch Grigg during last season

Definitely agree. I think once you've got a core group of players (and that comes through trading if not the original draft) then the FA list and draft can help you keep it fresh and topped up as players retire or cease to be fantasy relevant. Losing LJ and Grigg hurt your output last season, but there's nothing to say they'll go on to be best 22 in the long run.. and you got Jesse White off the FA list after I dropped him and his trade currency would have to be very, very high at the moment with the Pies being very public about not wanting to be too Cloke centric, and he being their next best option (not to mention his NAB cup form). There'll be great FA picks available this season too (there always is) for the teams in the bottom half of the table to contend for... TW got Nicholls from the FA list last season, and I'd have thought he could pretty much have named his price during the pre-draft trading.

 

[mrpez]

The other thing to remember is that we are playing a fantasy game so Pick 1 means alot of different things to people. Martin could turn out to be a super start player in the AFL, but he may be no better than Kolodjashnij or Billings or even Lewis Taylor from a fantasy perspective. Wait a sec.....

I almost posted something very similar earlier with respect to the difference between pick 1 and pick 6. Pick 1 as the ultimate "reward" is a bit of a misnomer anyway, there's as much likelihood that Aish will supersede Martin, Hogan, Boyd, McDonald, Kolodjashnij and Kelly as the best player in those top 6 picks as there is that Martin will be the best. All pick 1 or 2 (or any pick really) gives you is the option to take a given player before the player after you makes their selection.

But clearly there is a value of having pick 1 versus pick 6 when it comes to pre-draft trading. Melbourne has squandered oodles of early draft picks, while Geelong has nailed theirs in the 30s and 40s, but pre-draft Melbourne's picks were worth a hell of a lot more on the trade table.

 

[tenderwarrior]

TW got Nicholls from the FA list last season, and I'd have thought he could pretty much have named his price during the pre-draft trading.

I picked up Nicholls in the original draft, delisted him, picked him up, delisted him, I think Angels picked him up, delisted him then I picked him up again

Funnily enough I didn't have any suitable offers in the off-season Rockford. I guess nobody values him as highly as I do

 

[tenderwarrior]

Free Agent signings during the season is one of the best things about this game. Having them limited to 5 makes it quite a big call to use one.

I think my 5 last year were Nicholls, Merrett, B.Murdoch, Burbury and Williams - three of which are still on my list, while the other two were used in trades that ultimately assisted me to trade for O'Shea and Swallow. I would be interested to see others FA picks. Maybe we should have a peer-based award at the end of the season for the coach who is deemed to have been the most astute