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List Mgmt. Big key forward

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sirlothie said:
I'm guessing we had a higher overall total goals in 2018 than 2010 or maybe even 2011 considering others made a significant contribution in goals too. All of them 25+ pretty much.
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Nup.

2010: 395 goals (26 games)
2011: 415 goals (25 games)
2018: 345 goals (26 games)
 
76woodenspooners said:
Nup.

2010: 395 goals (26 games)
2011: 415 goals (25 games)
2018: 345 goals (26 games)
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Wow. We must have got a lot of goals out of our midfield in the glory days. My memory is foggy now. I suppose we had Didak too who was actually leading goalkicker in 2010 with just 41. Must have been a good spread that year.
 
76woodenspooners said:
Sure. But then we get to the question of salary cap and what clubs are prepared to pay for the player’s services. Even if Cameron wants to come and play for Collingwood for peanuts, as a RFA GWS can still match.

And yeah, if players really want to leave they can go into the draft, but how often does that happen? There was Luke Ball around 10 years ago, any others?
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Just look at what happened when Beams left, we didn’t get get to ask them for Rich or Zorko etc. We had to accept the pick and steak knives. I’m not saying you can’t get fair value or they’ll be bent over, it’s just highly unlikely GWS will be walking away with a player of similar quality if they lose Cameron.
 
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Star player for star player trade just don't happen. When's the last time it happened? It's always picks and picks aren't guaranteed to work out so I would do anything to hold onto him and even if I got the pick of Adelaide's list I still couldn't find anything worth Grundy.
 
Soups said:
Smart by the dogs. Will be one hell of a player. And everyone was worried about his kicking.
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Not me. I wanted him.
 
76woodenspooners said:
Absolutely!

Pop Quiz: Who kicked more goals in these years?

(A) Travis Cloke in our Premiership year of 2010

(B) Will Hoskin Elliott in 2018

WHE kicked more (42 goals in 26 games versus Travis Cloke 38 goals in 24 games)

Pop Quiz 2: Who kicked more goals in these years?

(A) Combination of Travis Cloke and Chris Dawes in our Blitzkrieg year of 2011, the year we only lost to one team :(

(B) Combination of Jordan DeGoey and Will Hoskin Elliott in 2018

Cloke (69 goals in 25 games) + Dawes (27 goals in 18 games) = 96 goals in 43 games, did kick more than JDG (48 goals in 21 games) + WHE (42 goals in 26 games) = 90 goals in 46 games, but there isn’t much in it especially when you consider how much of our salary cap we must have been paying Cloke at the time.
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Now put all the other factors in that KP size players provide vs what they do. Goals is only a single factor of why you want a genuine KPF.

Every dominant era team (Lions, Hawks, Geelong) ie a team that doesn't just "pinch" a flag has had genuine KPP filling its spine.

Teams who had short fwd lines tend to be 1 and done. Dogs (AFL umpire sponsored), Richmond.
 
loki04 said:
Now put all the other factors in that KP size players provide vs what they do. Goals is only a single factor of why you want a genuine KPF.
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Cox brings the Ball to ground as well as anyone.

Anything else?

Every dominant era team (Lions, Hawks, Geelong) ie a team that doesn't just "pinch" a flag has had genuine KPP filling its spine.
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Plenty of dud teams had KPF’s too. How many Premierships did Richardson, Lockett and Fevola win?

Teams who had short fwd lines tend to be 1 and done. Dogs (AFL umpire sponsored), Richmond.
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As I keep saying, if we can pick up a KPF cheaply (eg Mihocek, Cox) then I’m on board, why wouldn’t we do it?

If GWS will part with Jeremy Cameron for Aish, JT, Greenwood and whoever else happens to be the BigFooty whipping boys du jour, and if Jeremy Cameron is happy to sign for the kind of money that will allow us to hold onto our untouchable players plus fill whatever else our list needs to win a Premiership every year for the next 10 years ... then hell yeah, let’s do it!

But unfortunately that’s not the world we live in.
 
sirlothie said:
As good as Stevo has been Naughton now projects to be the better player. There will always be more pacy flankers than key forwards who can clunk them like Naughton can.
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I reckon you're falling into the trap of recency trumping all. Stephenson by a mile in my book. I think he'll be an elite game changing player.
 

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sr36 said:
I reckon you're falling into the trap of recency trumping all. Stephenson by a mile in my book. I think he'll be an elite game changing player.
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My biggest problem with Stevo is that he only has 1 strength and a lot of weaknesses.

Strength is obviously speed.

So hope I am wrong.
 
Tbone McGraw said:
My biggest problem with Stevo is that he only has 1 strength and a lot of weaknesses.

Strength is obviously speed.

So hope I am wrong.
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Nah. Kid's got it all other than size - at this stage.
 
Tbone McGraw said:
So you rate his kicking?
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Don't mind it. It's a bit like Daisy's was, can exucute off half a step, can execute at full pace, can do the really tricky stuff, but can be sloppy with the bread and butter stuff. But he's improving there and think it'll become good.
 
So Stevo has a lot of weaknesses?
wow

That's tough judgement on a kid that's played one season, won the Rising Star and played in a Granny in his first year as well as kicking a whole heap of goals.

How'd you rate Bucks after his first year?
 
sr36 said:
I reckon you're falling into the trap of recency trumping all. Stephenson by a mile in my book. I think he'll be an elite game changing player.
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sr36 said:
I reckon you're falling into the trap of recency trumping all. Stephenson by a mile in my book. I think he'll be an elite game changing player.
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I'll admit what I have seen of Naughton is limited but he looks to have all the makings of a gun key forward for over a decade. Stevo has a worrying case of 2nd year blues.
 

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76woodenspooners said:
Cox brings the Ball to ground as well as anyone.

Anything else?



Plenty of dud teams had KPF’s too. How many Premierships did Richardson, Lockett and Fevola win?
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Provide a genuine consistent marking presence both inside 50 and as an outlet kick on flanks wings.

Set up goals directly (kicks, hand passes, nock ons through repetitive contests and winning them) and indirectly. Nick and Jack Reiwoldt C.Tarrant (01-03) Franklin Roughead

Follow up after contesting, throw their weight around both in air and on ground.

Spread the defence through their leading and presence.


Cox is very inconsistent and is useless 90% of the time when the ball hits the deck, struggles to take uncontested marks on leads with any regularity as is too slow to get separation, and also if the defender is smart struggles with contested marks. Imo he gets flat out beaten too often.


Plenty of dud teams had champion mids too...should we look to get only rookies and project players in to fill these roles up as well?


Also why keep raving about other teams KPF? Im talking about actually dropping a 1st rounder on KPFs for once and developing our own.
 
sirlothie said:
As good as Stevo has been Naughton now projects to be the better player. There will always be more pacy flankers than key forwards who can clunk them like Naughton can.
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Except without Stephenson last year we don’t make the Gf in my opinion.
He changed the whole dynamic.
 
At the end you take the best player available in the draft in my view.

Example do you take a projected (in recruiters view) an A grade onballer or a B grade key position player?

My view, A grade every time.

No point passing in who you think might be a top player for a nice key position player.
 
Apex36 said:
Sorry but you’re seriosly undervaluing both JDG and Grundy in those scenarios. As for your reasoning on JDG vs Cameron’s value, we’d be getting Cameron to replace Cox in the forward line, not him. Why would we get him when we have Jordy? Two guns are better than one my friend.
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Mate this is up there with knightmare’s trade scenarios for the 16 yo Lukosius in 2017! Cameron is someone I rate, make no bones about that, but he’s borderline best 5 at GWS. I would 100% not take him ahead of Kelly, Coniglio, Whitfield or Greene (in any order) and would flip a coin over him and Davis. At best if you were doing a deal on him which involved JDG or Grundy steak knives like Sier or Phillips might be needed, but that’s it.

The type of deal 76 put forward is the Richmond offer to GWS on Treloar where you know the player isn’t keen, but your attitude is “**** it” let’s shit the bed on a deal for him anyway!
 
Saintly Viewed said:
At the end you take the best player available in the draft in my view.

Example do you take a projected (in recruiters view) an A grade onballer or a B grade key position player?

My view, A grade every time.

No point passing in who you think might be a top player for a nice key position player.
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Of course if the gap is stupid and evident, but you cant tell me over the last 10 years all the KPF taken in the first rounds have been B grade and below standard of the mids in first rounds?


And then also you become an imbalanced team through having too many of same types. This may build a side capable of a one off flag but not a dominant team that will have multiple years success'.


Outside Moore all our tall fwds have come from rookie drafts, cat b/internationals, or very late draft picks.
 
Scodog10 said:
Mate this is up there with knightmare’s trade scenarios for the 16 yo Lukosius in 2017! Cameron is someone I rate, make no bones about that, but he’s borderline best 5 at GWS. I would 100% not take him ahead of Kelly, Coniglio, Whitfield or Greene (in any order) and would flip a coin over him and Davis. At best if you were doing a deal on him which involved JDG or Grundy steak knives like Sier or Phillips might be needed, but that’s it.

The type of deal 76 put forward is the Richmond offer to GWS on Treloar where you know the player isn’t keen, but your attitude is “**** it” let’s shit the bed on a deal for him anyway!
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He isn't coming anyway, he is GWS through and through, also very very doubtful Grundy goes anywhere either. Both are likely 1 club types.
 

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