Biglands

[Alex99]

you really do have a very extreme view on this....

I can't work out whether you actually believe it or if you are just baiting C98.

Me either, that’s why I am not biting anymore.

 

[Mad Dog]

no it doesn't - but using the same facts to argue contradicting points is a little silly

 

[maccas_no1]

you really do have a very extreme view on this....

I can't work out whether you actually believe it or if you are just baiting C98.

So if I have an extreme view on this, why do you think Im baiting C98????

That is my opinion and the reasons for thinking that I have explained and others have brought the same concerns as I up in this thread.

 

[maccas_no1]

Me either, that’s why I am not biting anymore.

No you have shut up because every other person has brought across the same arguement I have, but you listen to nobody, well dont go crying at seasons end when you are proven wrong.

 

[Mad Dog]

No you have shut up because every other person has brought across the same arguement I have, but you listen to nobody, well dont go crying at seasons end when you are proven wrong.

Exhibit A

 

[maccas_no1]

no it doesn't - but using the same facts to argue contradicting points is a little silly

I think his point is valid, C98 is saying yep right we have two young ruckmen thats the end of biglands, when neither Maric nor Meeson have proven anything at AFL level, is that not correct??

In 2007 they will have that opportunity to prove themselves and until the 2007 season draws to a close then nobody can say yes they have made the grade or no they havent, until that day comes Biglands is a required player and the suggestion by C98 that the AFC should have asked him to retire is utter rubbish and would have been an unwise move by the AFC, is that not correct???

 

[Alex99]

No you have shut up because every other person has brought across the same arguement I have, but you listen to nobody, well dont go crying at seasons end when you are proven wrong.

We will see.

 

[maccas_no1]

Exhibit A

C'mon MD be more mature than that, if that baiting then ******** me this place has gone up ******** creek


Try and have a discussion about the Biglands and suddenely because one doesnt agree with the other then it's baiting

Have a read of the thread and tell me how many people agree with my thoughts.

 

[Alex99]

I think his point is valid, C98 is saying yep right we have two young ruckmen thats the end of biglands, when neither Maric nor Meeson have proven anything at AFL level, is that not correct??

In 2007 they will have that opportunity to prove themselves and until the 2007 season draws to a close then nobody can say yes they have made the grade or no they havent, until that day comes Biglands is a required player and the suggestion by C98 that the AFC should have asked him to retire is utter rubbish and would have been an unwise move by the AFC, is that not correct???

And what happens in 2008 if they can not prove themselves, do we send them back to the SANFL and give the ruck spot back to Rhett Biglands?

How are we any closer to a premiership if that happens? Because that is the crux of my whole argument, I want to win a premiership ASAP and I appreciate we have to go though a cycle but by going back to Rhett Biglands in 2008 will dramatically slow this cycle down.

 

[swanfan]

Suspect rucks, well because Clarke has gone, Biglands wont play this year, and is 30 for the 2008 season, Hudson is making a return from a knee reco & he'll be 28 for the 2007 season, Meesen has played 0 AFL games, and Maric has played 8 AFL games, Griffin has played 0 AFL games and Tippett, a rookie, already has a neck injury

To me that adds up to suspect rucks for 2007.

No key position depth, well this too is a simple one to answer.
Hentschell wont play in 2007
Bassett is 30, BP
Bock is okay, CHF or CHB
Gill is a 24 yo rookie forward
McGregor is a 26 yo who can't make the team ahead of Perrie, nuff said
Perrie, at 28 with bricks for hands
Ricciuto will be your 32 yo 183cm FF or FP
Rutten is a fine FB
Sellar is a rookie forward
Stevens is a stop gap CHB
Welsh is your 28 yo, 188cm when fit, only worth a one year contract, forward

So for a game, you need 2 rucks, 3 tall forwards, 3 tall backs, as a general guide. You're already missing Hentschell, you have no key position prospects on the Rookie List. What happens if you get the usual 2 or 3 serious injuries to your taller players?

Hence to me that adds up as a lack of key position depth.

Lack of pace, well this comment hasn't only come from me, you can find many here on your own board saying the same thing, if you did a search.
Hence because of a lack of leg speed, the Crows will rely on making the ball do their running, eg ball speed. This style of game is one requiring high levels of skill, and as we all know, pressure is the biggest test for skill. As most other teams will have greater leg speed, they, if they are motivated enough, will be able to close down their Crow opponent, putting him under pressure, creating more chances for the Crow skills to diminish.

THAT is how I see the Crows will lose some games.

Fair enough Swanfan?

Yes, you raised some valid points.

 

[Mad Dog]

C'mon MD be more mature than that, if that baiting then ******** me this place has gone up ******** creek

please excuse me while I have a little chuckle while you pose for a photo opportunity next to your old mate "maturity".....

Try and have a discussion about the Biglands and suddenely because one doesnt agree with the other then it's baiting .

....you know better than that....

Have a read of the thread and tell me how many people agree with my thoughts.

I've read it mate - unfortunately I have to..... - the repetition is frightening.
FWIW - I don't care how many people agree with your thoughts and how many don't......that is not the basis for what is closer to the truth and what is not.....nor is it the basis on which I form my opinion.......I happen to agree that we've lost golden opportunities in 2005 and 2006.....no big statement there.....but I don't think we will "bottom out" before having another crack.....nor do I think we have "no chance of winning the flag" this year or next. Our position relative to other sides will not change much this year given that there are not a heap of other sides bursting to snatch a top 4 spot.

 

[Alex99]

surely, even you, appreciate that almost everyone will be looked at regardless?

Absolutely because a club will delist a player because of talent not age.

my one and only comment on this debate is this:
when you start calling for delistings to make way for our young ruckman to get opportunities in future you ignore 2 basic realities:
1. we do not know how they will develop in the next 2 - 3 years. we hope, but don't know
2. I don't know - and neither do you - whether our lead ruckman in 2009 is even our list right now.

In 2 or 3 years the odds will be a lot stronger for Maric and Meesen being better player than Rhett Biglands.

And you are correct that we do not know who will be in the team in 2 or 3 years but the AFC premiership odds would not be good if Rhett Biglands was still in the ruck.

 

[macca23]

I've read it mate - unfortunately I have to..... - the repetition is frightening.
FWIW - I don't care how many people agree with your thoughts and how many don't......that is not the basis for what is closer to the truth and what is not.....nor is it the basis on which I form my opinion.......I happen to agree that we've lost golden opportunities in 2005 and 2006.....no big statement there.....but I don't think we will "bottom out" before having another crack.....nor do I think we have "no chance of winning the flag" this year or next. Our position relative to other sides will not change much this year given that there are not a heap of other sides bursting to snatch a top 4 spot.

Correct on all counts.

Time to get that lock out, I think, MD.

The arguments are so circular they've worn a groove in the thread, methinks.

 

[Alex99]

Correct on all counts.

Time to get that lock out, I think, MD.

The arguments are so circular they've worn a groove in the thread, methinks.

Then explain it to me because I totally confused as I do not understand how we can go into a season and just tread water.

Assuming we cannot win the premiership this season (that debatable and another topic all together) IYO how should the AFC tackle the next few years so we can become a premiership contender again?

I would like to hear the views from Mad Dog, Macca23, PC, Crow_mo basically anyone bar Macca_no1 as we already know your POV.

 

[Mad Dog]

Then explain it to me because I totally confused

I would like to hear the views from Mad Dog, Macca23, PC, Crow_mo basically anyone bar Macca_no1 as we already know your POV.

I had my say a minute ago......

There are many parts of our game that will improve - ie midfield depth - Roo's fitness....

some will stay the same - ie - no star forwards who can at times make you want to take a bite out of the teal bucket seat in front of you.....

again some that will stay the same - ie - a dominant backline....

we have a very favourable draw.....

our injuries on average should be more favourable....

....there aren't many sides dramatically on the improve to snatch a top 4 spot

relatively speaking - we are a big chance to finish Top 4 again after 22 Rounds.

Thanks to making some tough decisions on some older players we are managing the demographic of our list well so I don't subscribe to the "bottom out" theory as we are well resourced and well healed in terms of Rookies and an excellent feeder competition for our squad.

For those throwing shyte at Perrie, Welsh, etc etc..... saying that we won't win a flag until these guys are turned over - yes they have their moments - yes I'm also critical - no I don't see them being a huge part of 2007.....but guess what - they weren't a massive part of 2006 either and we made a Prelim final so there is no empirical evidence correlating the two.

I remember most here thought we would drop off in 2006 after a successful 2005 because the rest of the competition would catch up to us and sit on our movers more and that we'd have crap luck with injuries.........well No ! - that didn't happen did it.......and there's no reason to say that it will happen in 2007 as some are asserting so definitively.

In 2007 we're still a real show.....

 

[macca23]

Then explain it to me because I totally confused as I do not understand how we can go into a season and just tread water.

Assuming we cannot win the premiership this season (that debatable and another topic all together) IYO how should the AFC tackle the next few years so we can become a premiership contender again?

I would like to hear the views from Mad Dog, Macca23, PC, Crow_mo basically anyone bar Macca_no1 as we already know your POV.

It's just that you and maccas have opposing points of view which have been regurgitated in umpteen different ways. Same point, slightly different packaging.

Below is a part of a post I posted on this topic many many many posts ago on this thread

Sadly for Biglands, this injury has occurred at a critical stage of his career. He is contracted until the end of this year only, by which time he will be 30, and if Maric Meesen and Griffin all blossom and sign on for longer, his AFL career might well be over.

Now that's not a definitive statement, as it's heavily qualified.

The young chaps have to firstly

a) improve

b) sign on again

Even then it's not a given that Biglands would be delisted - but he could be.

Let's just watch Meesen and Maric with interest and watch it all unfold.

Craig and crew will get it right IMO, whatever that right proves to be.

 

[jmorg1]

Suspect rucks, well because Clarke has gone, Biglands wont play this year, and is 30 for the 2008 season, Hudson is making a return from a knee reco & he'll be 28 for the 2007 season, Meesen has played 0 AFL games, and Maric has played 8 AFL games, Griffin has played 0 AFL games and Tippett, a rookie, already has a neck injury

To me that adds up to suspect rucks for 2007.

No key position depth, well this too is a simple one to answer.
Hentschell wont play in 2007
Bassett is 30, BP
Bock is okay, CHF or CHB
Gill is a 24 yo rookie forward
McGregor is a 26 yo who can't make the team ahead of Perrie, nuff said
Perrie, at 28 with bricks for hands
Ricciuto will be your 32 yo 183cm FF or FP
Rutten is a fine FB
Sellar is a rookie forward
Stevens is a stop gap CHB
Welsh is your 28 yo, 188cm when fit, only worth a one year contract, forward

So for a game, you need 2 rucks, 3 tall forwards, 3 tall backs, as a general guide. You're already missing Hentschell, you have no key position prospects on the Rookie List. What happens if you get the usual 2 or 3 serious injuries to your taller players?

Hence to me that adds up as a lack of key position depth.

Lack of pace, well this comment hasn't only come from me, you can find many here on your own board saying the same thing, if you did a search.
Hence because of a lack of leg speed, the Crows will rely on making the ball do their running, eg ball speed. This style of game is one requiring high levels of skill, and as we all know, pressure is the biggest test for skill. As most other teams will have greater leg speed, they, if they are motivated enough, will be able to close down their Crow opponent, putting him under pressure, creating more chances for the Crow skills to diminish.

THAT is how I see the Crows will lose some games.

Fair enough Swanfan?

Well, if you want to look at the glass as completely half-empty, then sure, ok. Not saying you don't have some valid points, but it looks like you went through the entire list and tried hard to come up with any excuse possible to explain why that player just cannot possibly perform well enough.

 

[swanfan]

Well, if you want to look at the glass as completely half-empty, then sure, ok. Not saying you don't have some valid points, but it looks like you went through the entire list and tried hard to come up with any excuse possible to explain why that player just cannot possibly perform well enough.

Agreed, thank-you for putting it into written form more clearly than what I probably would have.

 

[Alex99]

At least we are now getting some healthy football debate going over a few threads now, the draft games were good and a bit of fun for a few weeks but (can not speak for others) I lost interest in that few weeks ago.


Football is almost back and now we can start the examination of the actual game again.

 

[Asgardian]

Well, if you want to look at the glass as completely half-empty, then sure, ok. Not saying you don't have some valid points, but it looks like you went through the entire list and tried hard to come up with any excuse possible to explain why that player just cannot possibly perform well enough.

I can't help they way you see it, any more vise-a-versa.

To sum it up, I believe the Crows still lack pace, and they are vulnerable in some positions if injuries occur. You may think that is a case for every club, in some respects yes, however in my opinion, Craig has left the Crows in an especially exposed condition if a couple of things go wrong.

 

[- PC -]

Then explain it to me because I totally confused as I do not understand how we can go into a season and just tread water.



I would like to hear the views from Mad Dog, Macca23, PC, Crow_mo basically anyone bar Macca_no1 as we already know your POV.

I think your confusing our position as treading water. Who knows what will happen. The issue I have is that you have accepted a position that football is cyclical and you must drop lower to go higher. I dont agree, I know others dont agree with me and thats fine.

Assuming we cannot win the premiership this season (that debatable and another topic all together) IYO how should the AFC tackle the next few years so we can become a premiership contender again?

As much as we may say we hate the mob across the road they have one positive that gets them through. They EXPECT to win premierships. I dont believe the AFC should devise a strategy to become a premiership contender in a couple of years....because I expect the AFC to contend this year.

Who knows what it will take to win a flag this year...will WC handball happiness still be good enough? Will Sydneys tight man on man checking style be good enough again?

I think the answer to your question lies in the drafts of the last 3 years and in that regard I think the AFC have done some good work. Its not a perfect science but I think we are better off.

 

[- PC -]

To sum it up, I believe the Crows still lack pace, and they are vulnerable in some positions if injuries occur. You may think that is a case for every club, in some respects yes, however in my opinion, Craig has left the Crows in an especially exposed condition if a couple of things go wrong.

Following on from my previous post, will it be pace that wins a flag this year?

Does anyone think that a team that can move the ball from one end of the ground to the other lacks pace?

Your second point is interesting, can you expand on what things need to go wrong for the AFC to be exposed?

 

[- PC -]

Suspect rucks, well because Clarke has gone, Biglands wont play this year, and is 30 for the 2008 season, Hudson is making a return from a knee reco & he'll be 28 for the 2007 season, Meesen has played 0 AFL games, and Maric has played 8 AFL games, Griffin has played 0 AFL games and Tippett, a rookie, already has a neck injury

To me that adds up to suspect rucks for 2007.

Just to note, Griffin and Tippet would not expect to play as rucks this year. Going back to schoolyard football will cover any issues we have in this regards...not ideal but liveable.

No key position depth, well this too is a simple one to answer.
Hentschell wont play in 2007

Its funny . I recall many posters on here trying to fit 4 into 3 and until Hentschell went down it was argued week in week out where McGregor would play, would Welsh play, is Perrie good enough etc etc ...

Gill is a 24 yo rookie forward

This is a red herring. Porplyzia, Douglas and Vince are also rookie forwards. Gill is a year older than Porps

So for a game, you need 2 rucks, 3 tall forwards, 3 tall backs, as a general guide. You're already missing Hentschell, you have no key position prospects on the Rookie List. ?

Why is the rookie list important? Hentschell did his injury before the draft which gave the AFC time to draft for Hentschells replacement. Maybe Tippet or Disco Sellar is the replacement.

What happens if you get the usual 2 or 3 serious injuries to your taller players
Hence to me that adds up as a lack of key position depth.

What happens if we dont?

Lack of pace, well this comment hasn't only come from me, you can find many here on your own board saying the same thing, if you did a search.
Hence because of a lack of leg speed, the Crows will rely on making the ball do their running, eg ball speed. This style of game is one requiring high levels of skill, and as we all know, pressure is the biggest test for skill. As most other teams will have greater leg speed, they, if they are motivated enough, will be able to close down their Crow opponent, putting him under pressure, creating more chances for the Crow skills to diminish.

What if the ball speed is slowed down? Why does it need to be fast? I think the beauty of all this is that we are aware as is the coaching staff of the AFC and appropriate scenarios can be played out

( takes off rose coloured glasses)

Yes it will be difficult, but only if aproached as difficult. No rucks? Rove to the opposition rucks. No pace? Slow the game down to your pace. Ugly football? Yes, and as long as it wins games we will grumble but accept it

 

[Asgardian]

Following on from my previous post, will it be pace that wins a flag this year?

Does anyone think that a team that can move the ball from one end of the ground to the other lacks pace?

Your second point is interesting, can you expand on what things need to go wrong for the AFC to be exposed?

Pace helps

Yes, leg speed and fast ball movement are 2 different things, but with greater leg speed you will be more likely to evade pressure, hence you will have more time to execute foot and hand skills accurately.

IF Hudson goes down, the Crows are badly exposed in the ruck

IF Ricciuto & Welsh cannot stay fit, options are limited, so if plan A aint working, where is plans B C etc, without robbing Peter to pay Paul?

Percentage wise I believe that due to history, these "possibles" are not just wild rantings.

 

[maccas_no1]

Pace helps

Yes, leg speed and fast ball movement are 2 different things, but with greater leg speed you will be more likely to evade pressure, hence you will have more time to execute foot and hand skills accurately.

IF Hudson goes down, the Crows are badly exposed in the ruck

IF Ricciuto & Welsh cannot stay fit, options are limited, so if plan A aint working, where is plans B C etc, without robbing Peter to pay Paul?

Percentage wise I believe that due to history, these "possibles" are not just wild rantings.

I dont believe they are either too many IF's for my liking

I would love to come out and say 'yes the AFC will take all before us' maybe its because of the disasters of the last two seasons that doesnt have me brimming with confidence, but my passion for the AFC will never change whether we are at the top or the bottom.