Politics Bill 89 - this is a horrifying precedent

[MC Bad Genius]

If transsexuality is (nearly always?) associated with some kind of distress when left untreated, something should be done. The question is what. Whether we call it a disorder or not is just political-- it doesn't actually help inform us on how to deal with it. We're still left with the same controversy (to transition or not).

I agree that it doesn't necessarily change the decision on whether to transition, although I don't think it needs to be considered a controversy. But suggesting that it's a political distinction isn't true at all. Yes, different specialists will have political views that influence their opinions, there is a genuine desire to look at the best way to support trans people e.g. one debate is around whether gender dysphoria is a mental illness vs people with gender dysphoria often having other mental illness. That's not just a semantic difference.

Interestingly, homosexuality was changed in the DSM in 1973 to not be a psychiatric disorder, but was only removed from the DSM altogether in 1987, so similar debates to what have been had recently over gender dysphoria are not unique.

Re: Gays, for the most part they're in a position where just being left alone to pursue their own happiness is enough. Society doesn't have to change dramatically for them to function and have loving relationships, a healthy & realistic identity, purpose etc so it's not really a problem.

Gay people in 2017 in a lot of places in the world are left alone to pursue their own happiness. Gay people in a lot of other places in 2017 and in pretty much all of history were certainly NOT left alone to pursue their own happiness. As mentioned above, homosexuality was considered a psychiatric disorder and gay people had a much higher level of other mental health concerns and higher suicide rates, both of which are still true.

And yes, society hasn't had to change much for the acceptance of gay people, but if you go back not even that long ago, there would've been an eerily similar feeling held that society would have to change dramatically to accept homosexuality in the mainstream.

Being trans is difficult, because to achieve what they want requires society to actively indulge them & their idealized identity 24/7. This is fine if you transition convincingly. If you can't (like most?), society isn't going to play pretend, & you are probably going to have all sorts of problems that simply can't be resolved unless you come to terms with reality, imperfect as it is.

Despite the fact that technology has and will continue to improve so that its harder to know if someone has transitioned, why should the decision on transitioning decided by how much others have to "play pretend"? I'm not denying that it would be unbelievably horrible to not be accepted as your gender, but it would be even worse if you couldn't even be that gender with yourself.

Society doesn't have to "actively indulge" someone's gender. And I'm sure you can see why that language would be deeply offensive to trans people. Society simply has to say "OK, cool" and then continue to not be effected in any way at all by someone else's gender.[/QUOTE]

You only get the beautiful woman treatment if you actually pass as a beautiful woman. You only get the strong man treatment if you actually pass as a strong man. That's just reality, it's how the world works. If you don't pass, & your happiness is dependent on society treating you based on an identity that only exists in your mind, the outcome is not going to be good. So if there's a chance for the person to grow out of their idealism & develop a realistic identity that they can be proud of and happy with don't you think it should be explored?

I'm pretty sure that trans people don't need "beautiful woman treatment", but simply people respecting who they are without judgement. And again, your language about pride in identity is pretty hurtful. I know this thread is about children with gender dysphoria, but your argument seems aimed at trans adults and you're suggesting that they should "grow out" of their gender dysphoria so they can be proud of a "realistic identity".

 

[MC Bad Genius]

I appreciate the honesty.

I am completely on board with adults experiencing GID seeking any form of treatment they deem necessary, whether it's full transitioning, hormone treatment, etc.

Where I personally get a little apprehensive is when the issue of treating minors comes up. I understand that the earlier you start to transition the better you pass and that is better for long term mental health, but if most of the kids outgrow the GID then how do we know which ones to put on hormone blockers (which can have horrible long term effects) and which ones we shouldn't.

Yeah, transitioning is much different for children and raises a lot of questions. I don't want this to seem like I disagree, but more because I'm interested: where did you find info on a) children growing out of gender dysphoria, and b) dangers of hormone blocking? Because what I've read suggests that the children that grow out of it were not really gender dysphoric (not in a pejorative sense, but they might not have been far enough down that spectrum to be diagnosed as that) and that hormone blockers are really helpful for children correctly diagnosed with gender dysphoria.

PS - Sorry if this was already posted in this thread and I missed it somehow!

 

[MC Bad Genius]

Aboriginal kids taken by the state (given away mainly but hey ho) - stolen generation

10k in a year removed - no problem, the state is so benevolent and beyond criticism.

There have been some horrific stories in the UK about parents losing children for spurious reasons with bugger all legal redress. The whole issue could do with a good looking at not just the usual johnnie come lately snowflake nonsense re gender identity or what the trendy term du jour is.



Harm according to who though? Noone has an issue with that but there surely needs to be a reasonable process not just the view of a social worker.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/...e-scandal-that-this-election-will-ignore.html

In the past few years, record numbers of children have been taken into this system, currently almost 100,000 in the UK as a whole

Of late, thanks above all to the heroic efforts of Sir James Munby, the current head of our family courts, some senior judges have been questioning parts of this system more trenchantly than ever before. In one recent judgment, (2015) EWFC 11, Munby went out of his way to highlight some of the methods whereby local authorities and social workers routinely flout basic principles of the law by bringing cases for the removal of children that rely only on unsubstantiated allegations and hearsay, “sometimes at third and fourth han

Child protection is certainly not perfect in 2017, but I can't really comment on the UK system. In NSW there has to be a "significant risk of harm" for FACS to even take the report and if it reaches that threshold, the department is so stretched it can't respond to them all. The threshold for removing children is obviously even higher and there are strict rules in place for how it needs to be justified in court (with appropriate supporting documents not just from a social worker ... although I'd argue that social workers in child protection are experts in their field in most cases) within a certain period of time. Mistakes are surely made, but I've seen a number of times the system work where if children have been removed without enough evidence, they've been returned to the parents by the court.

So I don't know Ontario's system at all either, but from the stuff posted in this thread it seems that it has some similar mechanisms in place as NSW. My reading of it is that if people fail to at least seek help for their child (like in any other situation including not getting medical treatment e.g. Seventh Day Adventists not allowing blood transfusions), then it would be considered neglect ... but it would be very rare for a child to be removed as a first step. It would very much be left as a last resort.

 

[Fryman]

Yeah, transitioning is much different for children and raises a lot of questions. I don't want this to seem like I disagree, but more because I'm interested: where did you find info on a) children growing out of gender dysphoria

Top of page 4 I gave the statistic and provided the link.
But here's a different study https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18981931

As for hormone blockers I think I was confused between hormone treatment and hormone blocking. Can anyone link me any studies that shows there are no long term effects? There seem to be very little research on it. But I would be very cautious about interfering with a physically healthy child's endocrine system when a vast majority of them don't need the treatment in the first place.

As an aside and purely anecdotal, as a father of three and with a wife whose a primary schoolteacher, most kids don't know their arse from their elbow. Kids crave attention and you would not believe some of the things they do to get it. I would be extremely sceptical of any parents that came forward and said that their child was trans. As CM86 posted, the vast majority of GID kids turn out to be gay rather than trans, I worry about the heightened awareness around transgender has more parents jump the gun rather than accepting they have an effeminite son or a tom-boy daughter.

 

[CM86]

As CM86 posted, the vast majority of GID kids turn out to be gay rather than trans

That isn't true. And you know it.

 

[Frank Bunn]

The DSM-5 is a diagnostic tool for the APA...
It isn't just some random opinion... it's the official explanation by the APA, who published the DSM-5... And the reason they've needed to clarify it this way, is probably because people like you keep trying to use it as evidence for something that it isn't...

The APA did not need to clarify. There is greater clarity in DSM-5 than Bockting's Q and A session. Why did he omit the clause 'or impairment in social, school, or other important areas of functioning' from his description of gender dysphoria?

You put up what you considered the authority on the matter... I've shown you that they agree that transsexualism isn't a disorder... and you still refuse to accept it.
Now it's some kind of conspiracy...

As I explained to you earlier, (and you dismissed as simplistic and unsubstantiated), there are mental disorders around being transsexual, like anxiety and depression, that are caused due to being transsexual in our society... but not caused by being transsexual in itself.
And this is the point you are refusing to accept.

Transsexualism isn't a mental disorder... Even the authority you chose backs me up on this.

You are being loose with your terminology. Gender disphoria is a disorder and I described the diagnostic criterion earlier. There is frequent comorbidity with a range of other disorders including autism spectrum disorder. How does society create autism spectrum disorder in a child? And anxiety rates do not correspond to levels of gender-variant acceptance in a particular society.

From DSM-5

The prevalence of mental health problems differs among cultures; these differences may also be related to differences in attitudes toward gender variance in children. However, also in some non-Westem cultures, anxiety has been found to be relatively common in individuals with gender dysphoria, even in cultures with accepting attitudes toward gender-variant behavior.

It's more likely that there is an underlying condition that results in gender disphoria and the other associated disorders.

 

[Frank Bunn]

Wasn't the question, and doesn't actually respond to it.

You realise "asking why you hold a view" is not the same as silencing someone?

It's still an ad-hominem argument. Trying to discredit someone's views by questioning their motives or trying to gain an advantage by citing their own virtuous motives.

As far as silencing goes, that is what has been occurring to psychiatrists who do not hold the gender affirmative viewpoint. Activists fought to remove Zucker from the DSM workgroup on Sexual and Gender Identity Disorders, and celebrated when his clinic was shut down. Other psychiatrists are afraid to express themselves for fear of suffering the same fate.

The other type of silencing is the no-platforming by transgender activists of feminists like Germaine Greer and Sheila Jeffreys for holding views they find objectionable.

 

[Gough]

I'm not sure even Germaine Greer would describe herself as being silenced.

 

[Frank Bunn]

I'm not sure even Germaine Greer would describe herself as being silenced.

Her talk at Cardiff Uni had a no platform campaign and required high security.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2...est-germaine-greer-lecture-cardiff-university

 

[Fryman]

That isn't true. And you know it.

follow-up studies of prepubertal children (mainly boys) who were referred to clinics for assessment of gender dysphoria, the dysphoria persisted into adulthood for only 6-23% of children (Cohen-Kettenis, 2001; Zucker & Bradley, 1995). Boys in these studies were more likely to identify as gay in adulthood than as transgender (Green, 1987; Money & Russo, 1979; Zucker & Bradley, 1995; Zuger, 1984). "

 

[CM86]

follow-up studies of prepubertal children (mainly boys) who were referred to clinics for assessment of gender dysphoria, the dysphoria persisted into adulthood for only 6-23% of children (Cohen-Kettenis, 2001; Zucker & Bradley, 1995). Boys in these studies were more likely to identify as gay in adulthood than as transgender (Green, 1987; Money & Russo, 1979; Zucker & Bradley, 1995; Zuger, 1984). "

Now I know you're trolling.

You posted the original claim. I tried to explain how that claim lacked credence, because they hadn't been diagnosed as transsexual and then later became homosexual... they had only been referred to the clinic...
So there is no evidence they were actually transsexual to begin with...

On the subject of treating children, however, as the World Professional Association for Transgender Health notes in their latest Standards of Care, gender dysphoria in childhood does not inevitably continue into adulthood, and only 6 to 23 percent of boys and 12 to 27 percent of girls treated in gender clinics showed persistence of their gender dysphoria into adulthood.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/25231780/

That's the number of children who were referred to clinics for assessment. It isn't saying they were diagnosed as transsexual.
And this could have been because they were referred by people who didn't know if the child was homosexual or transsexual.
So I don't think that percentage is a fair number to use.

"follow-up studies of prepubertal children (mainly boys) who were referred to clinics for assessment of gender dysphoria, the dysphoria persisted into adulthood for only 6-23% of children (Cohen-Kettenis, 2001; Zucker & Bradley, 1995). Boys in these studies were more likely to identify as gay in adulthood than as transgender (Green, 1987; Money & Russo, 1979; Zucker & Bradley, 1995; Zuger, 1984). "

​

On the other hand, for adolescent children who were diagnosed with "gender dysphoria":

"in a follow-up study of 70 adolescents who were diagnosed with gender dysphoria and given puberty suppressing hormones, all continued with the actual sex reassignment, beginning with feminizing/masculinizing hormone therapy (de Vries, Steensma, Doreleijers, & Cohen-Kettenis, 2010).​

 

[CM86]

Trying to discredit someone's views by questioning their motives

This is what you are doing for the majority of experts and researchers...

Basically you have Zucker vs the rest... and you are claiming he is the only correct expert, and the other's should all be dismissed, because they are being controlled by transsexual activists.

 

[Frank Bunn]

This is what you are doing for the majority of experts and researchers...

Basically you have Zucker vs the rest... and you are claiming he is the only correct expert, and the other's should all be dismissed, because they are being controlled by transsexual activists.

No I'm not. I'm saying there is not enough evidence to hold a conclusive view of one treatment methodology over another. And the DSM supports this.

It is unclear if particular therapeutic approaches to gender dysphoria in children are related to rates of long-term persistence. Extant follow-up samples consisted of children receiving no formal therapeutic intervention or receiving therapeutic interventions of various types, ranging from active efforts to reduce gender dysphoria to a more neutral, "watchful waiting" approach. It is unclear if children "encouraged" or supported to live socially in the desired gender will show higher rates of persistence, since such children have not yet been followed longitudinally in a systematic manner.

Yet clinics are being shut down for holding the wrongs views and laws are being made irrespective of evidence.

 

[CM86]

No I'm not. I'm saying there is not enough evidence to hold a conclusive view of one treatment methodology over another. And the DSM supports this.



Yet clinics are being shut down for holding the wrongs views and laws are being made irrespective of evidence.

A clinic has been shut down, because it was trying to push for a certain outcome. Rather than working out purely what was best for the child.

If you came across a clinic that was pushing kids to become transsexual... You wouldn't have a problem with it being closed down, would you?


You have a view, that you refuse to change regardless of evidence presented to you.

 

[Frank Bunn]

Now I know you're trolling.

You posted the original claim. I tried to explain how that claim lacked credence, because they hadn't been diagnosed as transsexual and then later became homosexual... they had only been referred to the clinic...
So there is no evidence they were actually transsexual to begin with...

FWIW. From DSM-5

Rates of persistence of gender dysphoria from childhood into adolescence or adulthood vary. In natal males, persistence has ranged from 2.2% to 30%. In natal females, persistence has ranged from 12% to 50%.

(skip)

For both natal male and female children showing persistence, almost all are sexually attracted to individuals of their natal sex. For natal male children whose gender dysphoria does not persist, the majority are androphilic (sexually attracted to males) and often self-identify as gay or homosexual (ranging from 63% to 100%). In natal female children whose gender dysphoria does not persist, the percentage who are gynephilic (sexually attracted to females) and self-identify as lesbian is lower (ranging from 32% to 50%)

 

[Frank Bunn]

A clinic has been shut down, because it was trying to push for a certain outcome. Rather than working out purely what was best for the child.

I disagree. I think the clinic had an approach that absolutely valued what was best for the child but had an approach that did not conform to the very recent politics around gender.

Why do you ignore the evidence around comorbidity with gender dysphoria?

 

[DemonTim]

It's still an ad-hominem argument. Trying to discredit someone's views by questioning their motives or trying to gain an advantage by citing their own virtuous motives.

As far as silencing goes, that is what has been occurring to psychiatrists who do not hold the gender affirmative viewpoint. Activists fought to remove Zucker from the DSM workgroup on Sexual and Gender Identity Disorders, and celebrated when his clinic was shut down. Other psychiatrists are afraid to express themselves for fear of suffering the same fate.

The other type of silencing is the no-platforming by transgender activists of feminists like Germaine Greer and Sheila Jeffreys for holding views they find objectionable.

I don't think you understand what silencing is. Mocking you or your point isn't silencing.

Although, it's not ad hominem either. Understanding the motive behind an opinion is pretty standard in any debate.

 

[CM86]

I disagree. I think the clinic had an approach that absolutely valued what was best for the child but had an approach that did not conform to the very recent politics around gender.

It's still an ad-hominem argument. Trying to discredit someone's views by questioning their motives

Why do you ignore the evidence around comorbidity with gender dysphoria?

I don't... I'm the one who has been pointing out that transsexualism isn't a mental illness... but there are mental illnesses connected to it...

You seem to have been saying that transsexualism is the mental illness.

 

[Frank Bunn]

I don't... I'm the one who has been pointing out that transsexualism isn't a mental illness... but there are mental illnesses connected to it...

You seem to have been saying that transsexualism is the mental illness.

Why do you keep changing the terminology?

Gender dysphoria is a mental illness. There is frequent comorbidity with a range of other disorders that are not related to levels of gender-variant acceptance in that society. As such, it's my view that it's more likely that there is an underlying condition that results in gender disphoria and the other associated disorders.

 

[CM86]

Why do you keep changing the terminology?

Gender dysphoria is a mental illness. There is frequent comorbidity with a range of other disorders that are not related to levels of gender-variant acceptance in that society. As such, it's my view that it's more likely that there is an underlying condition that results in gender disphoria and the other associated disorders.

"Gender dysphoria" is a term that reflects more accurately than gender identity disorder when an individual is distressed about a conflict between their sex assigned at birth and their gender identity/role. "Gender identity disorder" suggests that their gender identity is disordered, yet having any gender identity, including a transgender identity, is not a disorder. However, having any gender identity, including a transgender identity, is not a disorder. Rather, the distress that some transgender people may experience at some point in their lives may be of clinical concern and can be alleviated through clinical management. The change in the DSM from gender identity disorder to gender dysphoria was a way to depathologize having a gender identity that differs from one’s sex assigned at birth and recognize the concern and clinical care that transgender individuals may need to achieve comfort with their gender identity, their body and gender role.

http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2015/11/psychology-transgender.aspx


That is it explained... by the people who published the DSM-5. Of which you picked as the authority...


Depression isn't the distress of having depression...
Anxiety disorder isn't the distress of having anxiety...
They are mental illnesses.
Transsexualism isn't a mental illness.
Being distressed about a conflict between their gender identity and their sex assigned at birth... is a disorder... And it can be helped and maybe even cured.
Transsexualism isn't a disorder... it is not something that needs to be helped or cured.


I think I've tried to explain this enough throughout this thread... I think I'm about done.

 

[Frank Bunn]

I don't think you understand what silencing is. Mocking you or your point isn't silencing.

Although, it's not ad hominem either. Understanding the motive behind an opinion is pretty standard in any debate.

I'm happy to argue something mocking me or a argumentative point. I don't give any credence to some anecdotal fallacy which may or may not be true.

 

[Frank Bunn]

"Gender dysphoria" is a term that reflects more accurately than gender identity disorder when an individual is distressed about a conflict between their sex assigned at birth and their gender identity/role. "Gender identity disorder" suggests that their gender identity is disordered, yet having any gender identity, including a transgender identity, is not a disorder. However, having any gender identity, including a transgender identity, is not a disorder. Rather, the distress that some transgender people may experience at some point in their lives may be of clinical concern and can be alleviated through clinical management. The change in the DSM from gender identity disorder to gender dysphoria was a way to depathologize having a gender identity that differs from one’s sex assigned at birth and recognize the concern and clinical care that transgender individuals may need to achieve comfort with their gender identity, their body and gender role.

http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2015/11/psychology-transgender.aspx


That is it explained... by the people who published the DSM-5. Of which you picked as the authority...


Depression isn't the distress of having depression...
Anxiety disorder isn't the distress of having anxiety...
They are mental illnesses.
Transsexualism isn't a mental illness.
Being distressed about a conflict between their gender identity and their sex assigned at birth... is a disorder... And it can be helped and maybe even cured.
Transsexualism isn't a disorder... it is not something that needs to be helped or cured.


I think I've tried to explain this enough throughout this thread... I think I'm about done.

You've just repeated the quote from Bockting's Q and A session with bigger letters and more bold

Why do you keep stating transsexualism when DSM refers to gender dysphoria? DSM refers to the condition being associated with clinically significant distress or impairment in social, school, or other important areas of functioning.

 

[CM86]

You've just repeated the quote from Bockting's Q and A session with bigger letters and more bold

Because you keep ignoring it.

It isn't some Q & A session... It's an official press release from the APA, in regards to the DSM-5...

Why do you keep stating transsexualism when DSM refers to gender dysphoria? DSM refers to the condition being associated with clinically significant distress or impairment in social, school, or other important areas of functioning.

Because you keep using gender dysphoria to mean transsexualism...
It isn't the same thing.
So I'll repeat part of it again...

"Gender dysphoria" is a term that reflects more accurately than gender identity disorder when an individual is distressed about a conflict between their sex assigned at birth and their gender identity/role. "Gender identity disorder" suggests that their gender identity is disordered, yet having any gender identity, including a transgender identity, is not a disorder.

You are taking the term 'gender dysphoria' from the DSM-5... and saying 'it's in the DSM-5, which means that transsexualism is a disorder'.


Or, can you say right now that transsexualism isn't a mental illness?

 

[Frank Bunn]

Because you keep ignoring it.

It isn't some Q & A session... It's an official press release from the APA, in regards to the DSM-5...



Because you keep using gender dysphoria to mean transsexualism...
It isn't the same thing.
So I'll repeat part of it again...

"Gender dysphoria" is a term that reflects more accurately than gender identity disorder when an individual is distressed about a conflict between their sex assigned at birth and their gender identity/role. "Gender identity disorder" suggests that their gender identity is disordered, yet having any gender identity, including a transgender identity, is not a disorder.

You are taking the term 'gender dysphoria' from the DSM-5... and saying 'it's in the DSM-5, which means that transsexualism is a disorder'.


Or, can you say right now that transsexualism isn't a mental illness?

I've consistently used the DSM-5 reference to gender dysphoria ie a mental illness. It requires six of eight listed behavioural criterion for a diagnosis of gender dysphoria in children and that the 'condition is associated with clinically significant distress or impairment in social, school, or other important areas of functioning'.

There is frequent comorbidity with a range of other disorders that are not related to levels of gender-variant acceptance in that society. As such, it's my view that it's more likely that there is an underlying condition that results in gender disphoria and the other associated disorders.

 

[CM86]

I've consistently used the DSM-5 reference to gender dysphoria ie a mental illness. It
requires six of eight listed behavioural criterion for a diagnosis of gender dysphoria in children and that the 'condition is associated with clinically significant distress or impairment in social, school, or other important areas of functioning'.

There is frequent comorbidity with a range of other disorders that are not related to levels of gender-variant acceptance in that society. As such, it's my view that it's more likely that there is an underlying condition that results in gender disphoria and the other associated disorders.

Or, can you say right now that transsexualism isn't a mental illness?