Politics Bill 89 - this is a horrifying precedent

[Fryman]

Now I know you're trolling.

.

I must be trolling.
Or as Sorted provided I'm right.

FWIW. From DSM-5

Rates of persistence of gender dysphoria from childhood into adolescence or adulthood vary. In natal males, persistence has ranged from 2.2% to 30%. In natal females, persistence has ranged from 12% to 50%.

(skip)

For both natal male and female children showing persistence, almost all are sexually attracted to individuals of their natal sex. For natal male children whose gender dysphoria does not persist, the majority are androphilic (sexually attracted to males) and often self-identify as gay or homosexual (ranging from 63% to 100%). In natal female children whose gender dysphoria does not persist, the percentage who are gynephilic (sexually attracted to females) and self-identify as lesbian is lower (ranging from 32% to 50%)

 

[CM86]

I must be trolling.
Or as Sorted provided I'm right.

No, you claimed that I posted something... I pointed out you were wrong, and you went back and took part of my quote out and posted it... which showed you must have read it...
So, the first time could be an accident... but the second time was definitely deliberate.

 

[DemonTim]

I'm happy to argue something mocking me or a argumentative point. I don't give any credence to some anecdotal fallacy which may or may not be true.

More randomness that doesn't respond

Becoming a theme

 

[Fryman]

More randomness that doesn't respond

Becoming a theme

Mate, why are you posting in this thread? You add literally nothing and only chime in to try and pot blokes. I think there is a pretty good discussion going on about a highly sensitive topic, with some good points being made on both sides. You could try and add something of substance or maybe troll another thread.

 

[DemonTim]

Mate, why are you posting in this thread? You add literally nothing and only chime in to try and pot blokes. I think there is a pretty good discussion going on about a highly sensitive topic, with some good points being made on both sides. You could try and add something of substance or maybe troll another thread.

Because I made a point about his whinging about a question, im trolling

Didn't you just whinge because you got called a troll

It seems common amongst those trying to claim transsexuals are mentally ill.

 

[Fryman]

No, you claimed that I posted something... I pointed out you were wrong, and you went back and took part of my quote out and posted it... which showed you must have read it...
So, the first time could be an accident... but the second time was definitely deliberate.

Probably a fair call. I didn't mean to misrepresent you. I think we got our wires crossed and I thought you were making a point that you weren't. Then I bristled at the accusation of trolling. My apologies.

 

[WeetBixKid]

I agree that it doesn't necessarily change the decision on whether to transition, although I don't think it needs to be considered a controversy. But suggesting that it's a political distinction isn't true at all. Yes, different specialists will have political views that influence their opinions, there is a genuine desire to look at the best way to support trans people e.g. one debate is around whether gender dysphoria is a mental illness vs people with gender dysphoria often having other mental illness. That's not just a semantic difference.

There's no group of people that are happily identifying as another gender without any kind of treatment/intervention. At least in the West, as far as I know. It's not like some have slightly higher rates of anxiety and depression, while others often function just fine without intervention. They practically *always* need treatment. Isn't that proof that, at least in our society, being trans is a mental illness in itself?

Interestingly, homosexuality was changed in the DSM in 1973 to not be a psychiatric disorder, but was only removed from the DSM altogether in 1987, so similar debates to what have been had recently over gender dysphoria are not unique.

I agree it is interesting, & shows mental illness is never black & white-- whether or not you're mentally ill depends on what society you're living in, & how it affects the way you function in that particular environment.

Gay people in 2017 in a lot of places in the world are left alone to pursue their own happiness. Gay people in a lot of other places in 2017 and in pretty much all of history were certainly NOT left alone to pursue their own happiness. As mentioned above, homosexuality was considered a psychiatric disorder and gay people had a much higher level of other mental health concerns and higher suicide rates, both of which are still true.

And yes, society hasn't had to change much for the acceptance of gay people, but if you go back not even that long ago, there would've been an eerily similar feeling held that society would have to change dramatically to accept homosexuality in the mainstream.

The changes required for gays were, at least in my opinion realistic and almost inevitable in western liberal societies. I can't say the same about the changes needed to give a *non passing* trans person what they want. If we get to the point where everyone that wants to can transition cheaply & convincingly, there will be far less of an argument. But when the realistic end point for many is not quite a woman and not quite a man, maybe the best option is not to transition at all rather than to expect society to deny what their eyes & ears are telling them.

 

[GTroit]

I think this debate can be settled rather easily.

1. Scientifically, sex is determined by chromosomes, not by sexual reproductive organs.

2. Some instances of gender dysphoria is, at least in part, a mental illness - it is literally a situation where your physical attributes do not reflect your biological and psychological traits. Treatment to cure this malady is reassignment.

3. Why do we impose a negative stigma on mental illness in the first place? It is literally "a condition which causes serious disorder in a person's behaviour or thinking". Which is exactly what untreated dysphoria embodies.

4. There are innumerable conditions that may contribute to dysphoria. To name a a few: 5 alpha-reductase deficiency, androgen insensitivity, incomplete gene expression (Y chromosome missing the SRY gene), mutated gene expression (X chromosome having an SRY gene when it shouldn't), mutated chromosomal pairing/partnering, etc.
Scientifically, transsexualism is well documented. The world doesn't operate in black and white. Just because the world is simple and binary for you, that is not the reality of it. Stop treating this as if your reality defines external truths.

 

[Frank Bunn]

Introducing transgender policies in schools is a waste of time and taxpayers’ money, and only confuses children further, a leading academic has claimed.

As increasing numbers of children and adults in the UK seek referrals for gender identity clinics, schools are being encouraged to become more inclusive, with many now providing gender neutral toilets, uniforms and language policies.

But putting such policies into practice only encourages more children to question unnecessarily whether they are a boy or a girl, argues Dr Joanna Williams.

When questioned on whether teachers should be given some degree of training in how to approach gender with students, however Dr Williams said no: “My fear being that training would suggest to them that there is a right way to teach it.”

Not all scientists are under the agreement that gender is on a spectrum, she argued.

“In doing more than just supporting transgender children, and instead sowing confusion about gender identity, schools do neither boys nor girls any favours,” she said.​

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/e...f-time-money-dr-joanna-williams-a7805511.html

 

[cannot]

...transgender ideology is not just infecting our laws. It is intruding into the lives of the most innocent among us—children—and with the apparent growing support of the professional medical community.

As explained in my 2016 peer reviewed article, “Gender Dysphoria in Children and Suppression of Debate,” professionals who dare to question the unscientific party line of supporting gender transition therapy will find themselves maligned and out of a job.


I speak as someone intimately familiar with the pediatric and behavioral health communities and their practices. I am a mother of four who served 17 years as a board certified general pediatrician with a focus in child behavioral health prior to leaving clinical practice in 2012.

For the last 12 years, I have been a board member and researcher for the American College of Pediatricians, and for the last three years I have served as its president.

I also sat on the board of directors for the Alliance for Therapeutic Choice and Scientific Integrity from 2010 to 2015. This organization of physicians and mental health professionals defends the right of patients to receive psychotherapy for sexual identity conflicts that is in line with their deeply held values based upon science and medical ethics.​

http://dailysignal.com/2017/07/03/i...rated-field-produced-large-scale-child-abuse/

 

[MC Bad Genius]

...transgender ideology is not just infecting our laws. It is intruding into the lives of the most innocent among us—children—and with the apparent growing support of the professional medical community.

As explained in my 2016 peer reviewed article, “Gender Dysphoria in Children and Suppression of Debate,” professionals who dare to question the unscientific party line of supporting gender transition therapy will find themselves maligned and out of a job.


I speak as someone intimately familiar with the pediatric and behavioral health communities and their practices. I am a mother of four who served 17 years as a board certified general pediatrician with a focus in child behavioral health prior to leaving clinical practice in 2012.

For the last 12 years, I have been a board member and researcher for the American College of Pediatricians, and for the last three years I have served as its president.

I also sat on the board of directors for the Alliance for Therapeutic Choice and Scientific Integrity from 2010 to 2015. This organization of physicians and mental health professionals defends the right of patients to receive psychotherapy for sexual identity conflicts that is in line with their deeply held values based upon science and medical ethics.​

http://dailysignal.com/2017/07/03/i...rated-field-produced-large-scale-child-abuse/

There are some legitimately interesting points that the author raises, but they are really clouded by her bias. Some of the language she uses is incredibly emotive and even when she posits an interesting argument, she undermines it by surrounding it in a really misleading context. One example of the latter problem is referencing the twin study that only 28% of identical twins in the study were both transgender. She compares that to skin colour, which has a 100% similarity between twins ... but not to anything else regarding mental health!

A bit of quick googling found that the American College of Pediatricians (which she is the president of) has a strong stance on traditional family values and is committed to pro-life policies. This isn't an issue in and of itself, but suggests there might be some undeclared bias in the author's pointed rhetoric. Also, the membership of that college is a fraction of the size of the American Academy of Pediatrics (ie a rival organisation), which she off-handedly dismisses as just blindly believing what others have said.

Finally, the website that this article is from has a note to readers at the bottom of the article that makes me think it might not be the most balanced of sources:

Trust in the mainstream media is at a historic low—and rightfully so given the behavior of many journalists in Washington, D.C. Ever since Donald Trump was elected president, it is painfully clear that the mainstream media covers liberals glowingly and conservatives critically.​

All of this just leads me to believe that there isn't being a suppression of debate around gender dysphoria in children at all, rather that she has an opposing view that is just in the incredible minority.

 

[WeetBixKid]

Found this from reddit recently. Warning: it's pretty graphic. I learnt something too- to keep vaginal "depth", for the rest of their life post op MtF's need to keep re-opening their wound/new vagina to keep it from healing over. They call it dilating. We have nowhere near adequate medical technology to be doing this kind of stuff yet but it's still encouraged. Unbelievable.

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

What is dilating?

 

[WeetBixKid]

I think that the new vagina is basically a deep wound that's trying to heal itself. To prevent that they need to spend time keeping it open, which is called dilating

 

[Frank Bunn]

What is dilating?

https://www.susans.org/wiki/index.php/Vaginal_dilation

 

[tandino]

Jesus Christ. Genuinely eye watering.

 

[Fryman]

Jesus Christ. Genuinely eye watering.

Now imagine when all these people end up in old folks homes unable to care for themselves, some poor person is going to have to do the dilation for them.

 

[cannot]

There are some legitimately interesting points that the author raises, but they are really clouded by her bias. Some of the language she uses is incredibly emotive and even when she posits an interesting argument, she undermines it by surrounding it in a really misleading context. One example of the latter problem is referencing the twin study that only 28% of identical twins in the study were both transgender. She compares that to skin colour, which has a 100% similarity between twins ... but not to anything else regarding mental health!

A bit of quick googling found that the American College of Pediatricians (which she is the president of) has a strong stance on traditional family values and is committed to pro-life policies. This isn't an issue in and of itself, but suggests there might be some undeclared bias in the author's pointed rhetoric. Also, the membership of that college is a fraction of the size of the American Academy of Pediatrics (ie a rival organisation), which she off-handedly dismisses as just blindly believing what others have said.

Finally, the website that this article is from has a note to readers at the bottom of the article that makes me think it might not be the most balanced of sources:

Trust in the mainstream media is at a historic low—and rightfully so given the behavior of many journalists in Washington, D.C. Ever since Donald Trump was elected president, it is painfully clear that the mainstream media covers liberals glowingly and conservatives critically.​

All of this just leads me to believe that there isn't being a suppression of debate around gender dysphoria in children at all, rather that she has an opposing view that is just in the incredible minority.

no ones perfect mate ...

Bill Nye’s Emmy nod shows how far science has fallen

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jul/17/bill-nyes-emmy-nod-shows-how-far-science-has-falle/

Scientist Bill Nye used to be respected — and then came “my vagina has its own voice.”
That’s a line from one of Nye’s “Saves the World” Netflix segments, which just picked up an Emmy Award nod, as noted by Breitbart. The series itself is billed as a get-together of “experts and famous guests” at Nye’s on-air lab to explore “scientific issues that touch our lives.”
But it’s devolved at times into outright political activism. His “Sexual Spectrum” episode, for example, blared forth the promo: “Sex is complex! Billexplores the ever-evolving science of sexuality with help from a panel of experts and ‘Crazy Ex-Girlfriend Star’ Rachel Bloom.” The focus? Legitimizing transgenderism.
Among the imparted bits of wisdom was this rocking line: “Drag king, drag queen. Just do what feels right.”
Evidently, this is what passes for Emmy worthy these days.

 

[cannot]

utube one of the most influential vehicles in known human history, do they not have better 'causes' to be pushing on the unwashed masses as opposed to this? Very noble of course but you'd think they could be doing something more productive?

 

[cannot]

 

[kirsti]

The science on transgender not being a mental illness is far from settled and neither is the definitive treatment, especially in children.

Gender dysphoria affects a very small number of children and as has been shown the majority will outgrow it.

The trans movement is a very vocal and aggressive group as a whole. They are very good at demonising anyone who recommends a cautious approach when dealing with the issue.

I am a transgender woman who is not aggressive.

 

[kirsti]

I appreciate the honesty.

I am completely on board with adults experiencing GID seeking any form of treatment they deem necessary, whether it's full transitioning, hormone treatment, etc.

Where I personally get a little apprehensive is when the issue of treating minors comes up. I understand that the earlier you start to transition the better you pass and that is better for long term mental health, but if most of the kids outgrow the GID then how do we know which ones to put on hormone blockers (which can have horrible long term effects) and which ones we shouldn't.

A trans person that experiences puberty of the gender they dont identify as faces far more negative long term effects. Australia has the most stringent process in place for trans children to be administered puberty blockers.

 

[kirsti]

Found this from reddit recently. Warning: it's pretty graphic. I learnt something too- to keep vaginal "depth", for the rest of their life post op MtF's need to keep re-opening their wound/new vagina to keep it from healing over. They call it dilating. We have nowhere near adequate medical technology to be doing this kind of stuff yet but it's still encouraged. Unbelievable.

i am 11 years post operative and have not had to dilate for over 10 years, many genetically born females have to dilate. every chemist in Australia sells dilation kits.

 

[kirsti]

Now imagine when all these people end up in old folks homes unable to care for themselves, some poor person is going to have to do the dilation for them.

many genetically born females have to dilate.

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

A trans person that experiences puberty of the gender they dont identify as faces far more negative long term effects. Australia has the most stringent process in place for trans children to be administered puberty blockers.

At what age do people realise that they're transgender?

Are there many cases where people believe so early on and change their minds later?