Politics Bill 89 - this is a horrifying precedent

[kirsti]

At what age do people realise that they're transgender?

Are there many cases where people believe so early on and change their minds later?

most pf the trans people I know realises they were different around 4 or five years of age. Most children know if they are a little boy or girl very early on a trans person is no different. I knew at 3.5 years of age.

 

[strung_out7]

Canada also has gender neutral passports. What a wonderful place

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

most pf the trans people I know realises they were different around 4 or five years of age. Most children know if they are a little boy or girl very early on a trans person is no different. I knew at 3.5 years of age.

How do you know at that age?

Gender roles for children of that age aren't that pronounced. I guess they might be in terms of children's toys.

That just seems like a very young age, for instance, I couldn't even speak until I was 4.

 

[kirsti]

I think this debate can be settled rather easily.

1. Scientifically, sex is determined by chromosomes, not by sexual reproductive organs.

2. Some instances of gender dysphoria is, at least in part, a mental illness - it is literally a situation where your physical attributes do not reflect your biological and psychological traits. Treatment to cure this malady is reassignment.

3. Why do we impose a negative stigma on mental illness in the first place? It is literally "a condition which causes serious disorder in a person's behaviour or thinking". Which is exactly what untreated dysphoria embodies.

4. There are innumerable conditions that may contribute to dysphoria. To name a a few: 5 alpha-reductase deficiency, androgen insensitivity, incomplete gene expression (Y chromosome missing the SRY gene), mutated gene expression (X chromosome having an SRY gene when it shouldn't), mutated chromosomal pairing/partnering, etc.
Scientifically, transsexualism is well documented. The world doesn't operate in black and white. Just because the world is simple and binary for you, that is not the reality of it. Stop treating this as if your reality defines external truths.

unfortunately determining sex by chromosomes isn't that easy there are many variables of chromosomal makeups.

 

[kirsti]

How do you know at that age?

Gender roles for children of that age aren't that pronounced. I guess they might be in terms of children's toys.

That just seems like a very young age, for instance, I couldn't even speak until I was 4.

i have seven grandchildren my youngest grand son is 5 try and tell hi he isn't a boy, I remember a particular incident at three and a half years of age where I first realised I felt different. In the 60,s and 70,s I had no where to turn to for help.

 

[kirsti]

Canada also has gender neutral passports. What a wonderful place

so does Australia and also non gender specific birth certificates.

 

[kirsti]

Do you support gender reassignment surgery then for minors?

that doesn't happen.

 

[Bennett.]

that doesn't happen.

Um yeah ok

 

[kirsti]

Um yeah ok

in Australia a court order is required to access puberty blockers and cross hormone therapy.

 

[kirsti]

Um yeah ok

do you have any links to your claim?

 

[kirsti]

How do you know at that age?

Gender roles for children of that age aren't that pronounced. I guess they might be in terms of children's toys.

That just seems like a very young age, for instance, I couldn't even speak until I was 4.

I was aware of my gender dysphoria at three and a half years of age that was back in 1968. Not once in any of my counselling was I told that a magic wand would be waved and one day I would wake up and be a genetically born female. I was provided with all the pros and cons and I made the personal decision at 33yrs of age that I could no longer keep living my life as a male.

I pretty much had the male body and life that most men would only ever dream of having but internally I could not relate to my body. I commenced my transition in 2000 having undergone gender confirmation surgery in 2006 later that year I applied for and was granted a Nsw Female Birth Certificate.

Having this birth certificate didn't change my past or suddenly make me a genetically born female. What this certificate enabled me to achieve was great self relief and happiness and also the ability under every law in Australia to be treated as a female.

 

[tandino]

A

I was aware of my gender dysphoria at three and a half years of age that was back in 1968. Not once in any of my counselling was I told that a magic wand would be waved and one day I would wake up and be a genetically born female. I was provided with all the pros and cons and I made the personal decision at 33yrs of age that I could no longer keep living my life as a male.

I pretty much had the male body and life that most men would only ever dream of having but internally I could not relate to my body. I commenced my transition in 2000 having undergone gender confirmation surgery in 2006 later that year I applied for and was granted a Nsw Female Birth Certificate.

Having this birth certificate didn't change my past or suddenly make me a genetically born female. What this certificate enabled me to achieve was great self relief and happiness and also the ability under every law in Australia to be treated as a female.

Any subsequent second thoughts or regrets?

 

[kirsti]

A

Any subsequent second thoughts or regrets?

i have no regrets with my decision to transition. Transitioning is massively hard I lived my life for four years as a woman prior to having my first surgery being breast augmentation and facial fem surgeries.

I would recommend a trans person living their life as their preferred gender for at least two years prior to undergoing any surgeries.

As far as my gender confirmation surgery I have absolutely no regrets.

 

[Bennett.]

in Australia a court order is required to access puberty blockers and cross hormone therapy.

Which mean it DOES happen?

 

[kirsti]

Which mean it DOES happen?

Not surgery puberty blockers and cross hormone therapy.

 

[Fryman]

most pf the trans people I know realises they were different around 4 or five years of age. Most children know if they are a little boy or girl very early on a trans person is no different. I knew at 3.5 years of age.

What is your definition of a woman?

We're being told it can't be sex organs, it can't be the ability to reproduce, it's not chromosomes and it can't be because you like girly girl things (as all of us enlightened people know that gender roles are cultural and not biological).
So how do you know you're a woman and not just mentally ill.

 

[kirsti]

What is your definition of a woman?

We're being told it can't be sex organs, it can't be the ability to reproduce, it's not chromosomes and it can't be because you like girly girl things (as all of us enlightened people know that gender roles are cultural and not biological).
So how do you know you're a woman and not just mentally ill.

what is your definition of a Woman?

 

[Gough]

what is your definition of a Woman?

Someone who usual lies tantalisingly out of his reach.

 

[kirsti]

http://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html

 

[Taylor]

I'm not sure the statistics would be readily available or accurate but if it were a result of a mental illness I would expect that the number of people "choosing" reassignment would tend towards the more desirable gender in that society, assuming the mental illness is generated out of a complex of inferiority compared against the other gender - like young girls born in China not being as valued as the boys (except when they are older and the men want a wife) perhaps growing to yearn for happiness in that other skin.

If the statistics were available then we could walk that path and explore it, but if they are 50/50 on a sizable enough scale then it kinda shoots that mental illness theory in the foot, which is the direction I am leaning towards.

 

[Fryman]

what is your definition of a Woman?

This the part where I give my definition using chromosomes and reproductive organs but then you'll bring up statistically insignificant exceptions like intersex. And claim that these genetic mutations invalidate any biological definition of what makes a woman.

Am I on the right track?

 

[kirsti]

I would love for you to

This the part where I give my definition using chromosomes and reproductive organs but then you'll bring up statistically insignificant exceptions like intersex. And claim that these genetic mutations invalidate any biological definition of what makes a woman.

Am I on the right track?

I would love for you to enlighten me with your definition using chromosomes and reproductive organs.

 

[Fryman]

I would love for you to

I would love for you to enlighten me with your definition using chromosomes and reproductive organs.

You don't need me. Just look in a dictionary.

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

kirsti, I have some further questions.

I've heard in the past that women are more likely to stay with a man-to-woman reassignment (I'm unaware of the correct term) than a man is to stay with a woman-to-man change. Is this accurate in your experience? If so, would this be due to the prevalent machismo in male society?

 

[dumb]

At what age do people realise that they're transgender?

Are there many cases where people believe so early on and change their minds later?

apologies for the self-quote... i looked into this somewhat in another thread. reading the links below again reminded me of the various ways people overcome this issue / move away from transitioning and it hasn't always been with surgery.
i've also seen this site before which mentions some numbers, including %20 - link - but there's a kind of shrill tone to it and links to some extremely old articles.

i can't seem to find any accurate stats on 'sex-change regret', people who are post-op and regret it, and want to return to their birth gender. it exists but can't find anything solid, though did read up to one fifth.
you come across the odd story about a person who has undergone 'detransitioning' (not necessarily all the way, just moving away from what they perceived to be their proper gender).

it seems there are often concurrent psychiatric/psychological conditions that take place alongside any gender dysphoria - you'd think it would medically be best to attempt to treat such things first if at all possible before going down the path of any invasive surgical intervention, should it be necessary - the same thing you'd do with cosmetic surgery addicts often experiencing body dysmorphia. some people report stopping their transition when their mental health issues were resolved. i suppose my opinion falls along those lines - their health and happiness is the top of the tree rather than becoming a gender - it just so happens that gender re-assignment may be needed for them to be that healthy happy person.
i don't think counselling/therapy for any concurrent psychiatric conditions should take the tack of a 'pray the gay away' type thing, 'avoid at all costs', but rather a holistic approach where their gender is a small part of the overall picture that may need to be addressed but not as first port of call.
that may already take place, i have no idea.

link
http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2016/06/17166/