Bill Shorten - how long?

[Baltimore Jack]

His ADF discharge certificate lists any awards, medals etc the member receives during their service. His Certificate would have shown exactly what he received, as well as the lid of the box the medal was sent to him in!

View attachment 538429

Not quite right
He may have been discharged prior to the ADM being awarded in 2007/8??
If so, his Discharge Certificate would not show it, however, if that is the case, he would have had to apply for the Award and then he must have clearly known what it was to fill out the application

 

[Procrastinator35]

Then neither is Malc

This thread aint about Mal.

It doesn't gain politicians anything of value to put Israel offside.

Any country claiming to be a Democracy, that shoots & kills unarmed protestors should be roundly condemned, no matter who it is....Ergo my coward quip.

What a Pathetic argument.

 

[Taylor]

Any country claiming to be a Democracy, that shoots & kills unarmed protestors should be roundly condemned, no matter who it is....Ergo my coward quip.

What a Pathetic argument.

I wasn't passing judgement on the politicians, I was saying they have nothing to gain from condemning it.

 

[Procrastinator35]

I wasn't passing judgement on the politicians, I was saying they have nothing to gain from condemning it.

But they do.....Honouring the principles of what it means to be a Democracy & a decent society & human being, prefaced upon human rights.

As I said, craven coward.

 

[Demosthenes]

The Greens running Labor out of town is one of the funniest things I have ever read or heard!

It is inevitable. The union movement will never relinquish their control of the ALP, and the more irrelevant the former becomes the more divorced the party will become from its real constituency. It's a decrepit and dying party.

If you had an ounce of vision, this would be obvious.

 

[Gough]

It is inevitable. The union movement will never relinquish their control of the ALP, and the more irrelevant the former becomes the more divorced the party will become from its real constituency. It's a decrepit and dying party.

If you had an ounce of vision, this would be obvious.

Your scenario is one that would please me no end but the Greens support looks to have plateaued at around ten percent while the ALP looks set to take government with a decent sized majority. It won't be happening any time soon.

 

[Rob R]

Then neither is Malc

why would the leaders of either party want to come out in favour of the terrorist palestinian leadership?

 

[Demosthenes]

I'm talking pretty long term. It won't happen in my lifetime.

The Greens have not really developed a level of professionalism commensurate with their vote, and the union movement is not completely dead yet.

Labor will eventually cut its own throat as the unions become poorer and more divested of talent, without a corresponding loosening of their grip on the party machine. Certified spuds like Shorten and Dastyari will look like superstars compared to what will be thrown up in a decade or two.

 

[GreyCrow]

This thread aint about Mal.
.

Correct. But when you posit an argument best you make sure its an outlier and not the norm

 

[GreyCrow]

why would the leaders of either party want to come out in favour of the terrorist palestinian leadership?

Thats not my argument. The dog whistling is meant to portray Shorten in a bad light yet its both sides. Classic dog whistling

 

[Procrastinator35]

Correct. But when you posit an argument best you make sure its an outlier and not the norm

My argument was that Shorten was gifted the opportunity to stand up & be counted in contra-distinction to the Murdoch lackey in Turdbull…..and he welched on it.

 

[DivideandMultiply]

I'm talking pretty long term. It won't happen in my lifetime.

The Greens have not really developed a level of professionalism commensurate with their vote, and the union movement is not completely dead yet.

Labor will eventually cut its own throat as the unions become poorer and more divested of talent, without a corresponding loosening of their grip on the party machine. Certified spuds like Shorten and Dastyari will look like superstars compared to what will be thrown up in a decade or two.

I disagree.

Worker militancy and union membership will likely increase in the future. We are seeing grass root worker activism and a resurgent left in the US and UK, similar will happen here.

 

[GreyCrow]

I disagree.

Worker militancy and union membership will likely increase in the future. We are seeing grass root worker activism and a resurgent left in the US and UK, similar will happen here.

I'm not sure. I've seen the death of militant unionism ( for the good) and the change under Howard . Howard was clever by not dismantling the unions but making another level of workforce. Unions relied on core strengths in manufacturing and construction and transport.

Manufacturing died under Johnny and construction couldnt change its bully ways. Construction along with transport changed from a top down model to a contractor model so that every person became their own boss ie tradies.

Cant unionise tradies that have their own business

 

[DivideandMultiply]

I'm not sure. I've seen the death of militant unionism ( for the good) and the change under Howard . Howard was clever by not dismantling the unions but making another level of workforce. Unions relied on core strengths in manufacturing and construction and transport.

Manufacturing died under Johnny and construction couldnt change its bully ways. Construction along with transport changed from a top down model to a contractor model so that every person became their own boss ie tradies.

Cant unionise tradies that have their own business

Millitancy in the US has been from the public sector and independant of leadership. The wave of wildcat teachers strikes were glorious.

 

[Demosthenes]

I'm not talking about teachers, I'm talking about real workers.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

It is inevitable. The union movement will never relinquish their control of the ALP, and the more irrelevant the former becomes the more divorced the party will become from its real constituency. It's a decrepit and dying party.

If you had an ounce of vision, this would be obvious.

But the ALP is the Political Arm of the Union Movement....they are the same organisation

 

[Gough]

I guess you were just naturally gifted and didn't learn from anyone.

 

[Reynolds Number]

I'm not talking about teachers, I'm talking about real workers.

What do you define as a 'real worker'?

 

[Kram]

Ones that don't get 10 weeks a year holiday

I guess you were just naturally gifted and didn't learn from anyone.

Mate some of the teachers we were given out in the country you pretty much did have to teach yourself, not that easy when people like myself aren't overly gifted in the brains department

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

Ones that don't get 10 weeks a year holiday

Mate some of the teachers we were given out in the country you pretty much did have to teach yourself, not that easy when people like myself aren't overly gifted in the brains department

The government is aware of how hard it is to attract talent rurally, so incentivises teachers to go out there. It can also help advance people's careers, seeing as there is less competition for senior roles. The latter doesn't impact the teachers you would've seen in class so much, but I'm sure at their barest they gave you the curriculum so you knew what you were meant to be learning.

Great teachers are worth far more than they are paid, and poor teachers generally get found out in the early years when they don't have a guaranteed role. Given your jokey comment about holidays, you may be happy to hear in the early years they are often 'sacked' at Christmas and re-employed in Feb/March. The life of a contract worker. If you had a particularly bad teacher you should talk to the school and get the PTA onto it. With enough pressure, they'll get moved if they won't go themselves.

 

[Badesumofu]

As a delegate of one of the larger unions - I'd say we're going to see more workers become more 'militant'. Hearing simultaneously that the economy is improving and also that 'the age of 3% pay rises is over' while the cost of living keeps going up - more and more workers are realising that they are worth more than they are being paid. It's too easy for employers to simply offer something s**t like 1.5% and then just say take it or piss off. Or worse yet do that and also try to remove conditions and threaten to go to the award if the workers don't accept it. Or only offer a crappy pay rise and only if the workers will give up some conditions. I mean yay who doesn't want to give up conditions for a 'pay rise' that is actually a pay cut?

Meanwhile you have respected economists telling us that the biggest problem with the economy in this country is stagnant wage growth (in fact real wages went down in Q1 this year) and people start to realise they aren't getting a fair deal. And this is to say nothing of rampant wage theft by employers who simply lie to their staff about what they are entitled to.

You have dickheads like Turnbull telling people working in vital jobs liked aged care that they have to 'get a better job' if they want to aspire to any kind of financial security or a comfortable retirement (which won't come until you are at least 70 in many cases). Things are already warming up and closer to really heating up than a lot of people realise.

 

[Demosthenes]

I guess you were just naturally gifted and didn't learn from anyone.

Teachers are lovely, but most of them live in a bubble. The minority who take it up as a second career generally have a far more realistic attitude to things like workloads.

Mind you, they're not the only ones. If you ever want a laugh, ask a nurse why their profession consistently take 3 times the sick leave that doctors and allied health do.

Public sector culture.

 

[Kram]

Teachers are lovely, but most of them live in a bubble. The minority who take it up as a second career generally have a far more realistic attitude to things like workloads.

Was actually kind of thinking about this the other day, in the noticeable difference between the teachers from my years in regular school and the ones I had in electrical trade school. The later usually seemed far more, for lack of a better word 'normal' and 'balanced' as people. Then I realised that the majority of school teachers have just spent their whole lives at school, to uni, then back to school. Whilst the latter have often spent 20+ years out in the broader workforce before entering a classroom again.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Was actually kind of thinking about this the other day, in the noticeable difference between the teachers from my years in regular school and the ones I had in electrical trade school. The later usually seemed far more, for lack of a better word 'normal' and 'balanced' as people. Then I realised that the majority of school teachers have just spent their whole lives at school, to uni, then back to school. Whilst the latter have often spent 20+ years out in the broader workforce before entering a classroom again.

I believe "Institutionalised" is the word you are looking for.

 

[pazza]

As a delegate of one of the larger unions - I'd say we're going to see more workers become more 'militant'. Hearing simultaneously that the economy is improving and also that 'the age of 3% pay rises is over' while the cost of living keeps going up - more and more workers are realising that they are worth more than they are being paid. It's too easy for employers to simply offer something s**t like 1.5% and then just say take it or piss off. Or worse yet do that and also try to remove conditions and threaten to go to the award if the workers don't accept it. Or only offer a crappy pay rise and only if the workers will give up some conditions. I mean yay who doesn't want to give up conditions for a 'pay rise' that is actually a pay cut?

Meanwhile you have respected economists telling us that the biggest problem with the economy in this country is stagnant wage growth (in fact real wages went down in Q1 this year) and people start to realise they aren't getting a fair deal. And this is to say nothing of rampant wage theft by employers who simply lie to their staff about what they are entitled to.

You have dickheads like Turnbull telling people working in vital jobs liked aged care that they have to 'get a better job' if they want to aspire to any kind of financial security or a comfortable retirement (which won't come until you are at least 70 in many cases). Things are already warming up and closer to really heating up than a lot of people realise.

Wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.