Black Caviar

Remove this Banner Ad

You've missed my point.

Weekend Hussler won 7 G1s. Very good horse, but doesn't seem renowned a 'champion' (at least from the knowledgable racing people that I know).

Mic Mac won 7 of his first 8, of which all but the first were in the city. Was unbeatable for a couple of months there - but despite a very good 3yo season (maybe even 4yo? memory is failing...), he's certainly not a champion.

Pierro must've won 4 G1s, had a winning record of 11/14 I think? Will be considered a very good horse, but not a champion. Along with the 2 horses above him.

With that said, MM wasn't a great example - should've gone with a Hot Danish type from around the same era.

edit: with all that said, I re-read and realised my bias was clear. Group 1s are not equal. Some are better than others, whether it's because of money, because of history, because of where they are... One thing that shouldn't be a consideration is distance.

And yet nearly all of our best G1 races are middle distance horses.

I wonder how many Australian horses over the last 20 years we'd consider great? And I wonder how many of them were sprinters?

Not many I don't think because aside from the Newmarket, there aren't great G1 races for sprinters to win (I wonder whether the average punter had even heard of a lot of the races, including G1s, that Black Caviar won). To be a "champion" in this country, I think you need to win Cox Plates, Doncasters, Epsoms, Caulfield Cups, Vic Derbies etc.

Contrast this with the Golden Slipper which, as a G1 race, is a worldwide abomination.

Perhaps this is the real reason that don't rate Pierro (or maybe under rate him) - he just didn't win the really great G1s.
 
He will be a champion 2yo/3yo much like Miss Finland (But better) but i agree he wont be remembered in 10 years as one of our real champions.

As for sprinters Takeover Target is a champion, probably Miss Andretti too
 

Log in to remove this ad.

hamohawk1 said:
needed one more year to make judgement on it. horse with great potential but was never truly tested to its max
Click to expand...

Ron Reed wrote a good article in the HS last week about BC, but I disagreed with one of his comments - that champions are often raced too long after their best is behind them. Reckon the opposite applies, except with geldings.
The_Doctor said:
Surround is a champion and all her wins came as a 3yo
Click to expand...

Cox Plate/Caulfield Guineas are stallion-making events; take those from her record and she'd probably be short of the champion bracket.

Vain raced for barely a year and has been the benchmark for sprinters ever since.
 
Ron The Bear said:
Ron Reed wrote a good article in the HS last week about BC, but I disagreed with one of his comments - that champions are often raced too long after their best is behind them. Reckon the opposite applies, except with geldings.


Cox Plate/Caulfield Guineas are stallion-making events; take those from her record and she'd probably be short of the champion bracket.

Vain raced for barely a year and has been the benchmark for sprinters ever since.
Click to expand...

Take the 2 Cox Plates off Sunlines record and she probably doesnt look as good either.

In the last 22 years only 5 times has the winner of the Cox Plate has been a colt or stallion (SYT twice) while the other 17 occasions its been won by a mare or gelding. Its the WFA championship of Australasia so of course its going to look good on a stallions resume but its not just a stallion making race
 
Ok,for those who arent old enough to appreciate Surround,enjoy this trip down memory lane.
She was an iron horse who basically was unbeatable when she was fit.
Her trainer the late Geoff Murphy ran her in everything until he broke her down.

In the same season she won from 1200m to 2500m beating the best older horses regularly including future Gp1 stars like Family Of Man,Unaware,How Now & the kiwi Battle Heights

She won 3 Oaks,MV Stakes,C Guineas,Cox Plate,Orr,Blamey & an Alister Clark Stakes.
To this day she is the only 3yo filly to win a Cox Plate & she ran a record doing it.

If you look up the word champion,theres a picture of Surround.

seth
 
The_Doctor said:
Take the 2 Cox Plates off Sunlines record and she probably doesnt look as good either.

In the last 22 years only 5 times has the winner of the Cox Plate has been a colt or stallion (SYT twice) while the other 17 occasions its been won by a mare or gelding. Its the WFA championship of Australasia so of course its going to look good on a stallions resume but its not just a stallion making race
Click to expand...

Mmm, well I wasn't Sunline's biggest fan.

Up until Surround's era the Plate was generally won by entires. Not sure the run of recent mares & geldings winning has done a lot for the race's prestige.
 
BC's effort at Ascot will be remembered even more fondly as the years go by. Everything went wrong and she still got it done. Her comeback from that was simply awe inspiring.
 
KardiniaPark said:
How can you not be a Sunline fan! Its not like she was trained by Waterhouse :D
Click to expand...

A bit sacrilegious but I felt the hype was a bit over the top; wasn't following racing much at the time and didn't think the competition ran very deep. Probably the best horse in the country for a good couple of years, but I don't remember people claiming she hadn't beaten anything as happened with BC (could be wrong).

* opinion may be influenced by Sunline getting up by a nose over a 200/1 shot in the mares' G1 to sink my field/Sunline exacta
 
Ron The Bear said:
A bit sacrilegious but I felt the hype was a bit over the top; wasn't following racing much at the time and didn't think the competition ran very deep. Probably the best horse in the country for a good couple of years, but I don't remember people claiming she hadn't beaten anything as happened with BC (could be wrong).

* opinion may be influenced by Sunline getting up by a nose over a 200/1 shot in the mares' G1 to sink my field/Sunline exacta
Click to expand...

I tend to agree. Thought her performances were enhanced by its affinity with the M Valley track. Wasn't as dominant on the bigger tracks.

Just on great horses where do people rate More Joyous?
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Gavin Excell said:
I tend to agree. Thought her performances were enhanced by its affinity with the M Valley track. Wasn't as dominant on the bigger tracks.

Just on great horses where do people rate More Joyous?
Click to expand...

MJ - Great but not champion. Would easily be in my top 20 since 1990.
 
iluvparis said:
MJ - Great but not champion. Would easily be in my top 20 since 1990.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I've thought about it since the question was posted, and I have to agree.

Hard to argue with 20 wins from 31 starts and 7 group 1 wins. And should earn forgiveness for the fact that I can think of three times she's lost where I felt the rider botched it.

She's \another one of those horses that I talk about, in that she hasn't won the big G1s that are really part of our culture, and that create "champions", apart from that Doncaster.

She doesn't lose points for her Cox Plate runs - but she probably loses points for being entered in the first place. (I didn't hate her run the first time though, where she took it to SYT)

In many ways, her 2yo season is endemic of her career. Won the G2 qualifier, then flopped in the Golden Slipper.

As a 4 yo she won the Toorak, but flopped in the Cox Plate.
Then in the Autumn, she won the Futurity and the QOTT, then flopped in the Doncaster.

As a 5yo, she won the G2 stakes on Caulfield cup day, then flopped in the G1 on Derby Day.

Can't argue with her 5yo Sydney season, she won everything.

As a 6yo she won a couple of lead ups that she had no business being entered in, and flopped in the Toorak.

And this prep? Well, much like when she directed towards the Cox Plate, she's been aimed at some of the the wrong races IMO. I don't know if this is about Gai hedging her bets. I don't know if it's Singo thinking she can beat Pierro... who knows.

I guess I just couldn't see the merit of Gai putting her great, but aging mare up against Pierro, and now up against ATH.

She can't be a champion IMO, because apart from winning the Doncaster as a 5yo, she just doesn't win the GF of her prep.

Which is why she may well win tomorrow - but I wouldn't put stolen money on her against ATH and Epaulette.
 
She loses plenty of points for mine for her two Cox Plate runs where she was nowhere near it - that is what seperates true Champions from just great horses - performing outside their comfort zone.

Hell even So You Think's Melbourne Cup defeat was absolutely heroic giving weight to the majority of the field, whereas MJ quite quckly threw in the towel in her two Cox Plate runs.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Remove this Banner Ad

Back
Top