Politics Black Lives Matter

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ExcitementMachine

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I'm not "asking" anyone because that's not a sensible metric for anything. I'm applying a broad criteria for what constitutes a nation state.

You seem to have sympathy for indigenous folks declaring themselves a separate nation along racial/ethnic/tribal lines.

Would you have similar sympathy for a bunch of white Australian bogans in Cronulla doing the same?

We had a White Australia policy. Do you support that kind of ethnonationalism?
No, but he sympathises with han chinese ethno nationalism because he stands for being woke and edgy thats it.
 

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Sweet Jesus

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No, I understood your post.


That is your point of view - and that is a 'sensible metric'
1) a defined territory, 2) a permanent population, 3) a government and 4) a capacity to enter into relations with other states.

That's not "my point of view". That's international law. It's the declarative theory of statehood under the 1933 Montevideo Convention.

Or do you think any group of people that simply declares themselves a nation automatically becomes a nation? We should just ask them and that's all that matters?

Just pause for a second and take a deep breath before you say something stupid.
 

ferball

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I'm not "asking" anyone because that's not a sensible metric for anything. I'm applying a broad criteria for what constitutes a nation state.

You seem to have sympathy for indigenous folks declaring themselves a separate nation along racial/ethnic/tribal lines.

Would you have similar sympathy for a bunch of white Australian bogans in Cronulla doing the same?

We had a White Australia policy. Do you support that kind of ethnonationalism?
Nations and states are two different things. A nation state is a state with the ability to broadly identify with a nation. but a nation isn't necessarily a state. This isn't a controversial definition either, its pretty well accepted.

I've got a mate who was a 'Bra Boy and is probably still affiliated with them. Not from Cronulla but close enough to what you are getting at. I don't object to that stuff unless it starts down the road to ethnic cleansing.

My dad was black and arrived here during the White Australia policy. He couldn't become a citizen until it ended.

1) a defined territory, 2) a permanent population, 3) a government and 4) a capacity to enter into relations with other states.

That's not "my point of view". That's international law. It's the declarative theory of statehood under the 1933 Montevideo Convention.

Or do you think any group of people that simply declares themselves a nation automatically becomes a nation? We should just ask them and that's all that matters?

Just pause for a second and take a deep breath before you say something stupid.
You're talking about a state, but not necessarily a nation.
 

Verdun

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1) a defined territory, 2) a permanent population, 3) a government and 4) a capacity to enter into relations with other states.

That's not "my point of view". That's international law. It's the declarative theory of statehood under the 1933 Montevideo Convention.

Or do you think any group of people that simply declares themselves a nation automatically becomes a nation? We should just ask them and that's all that matters?

Just pause for a second and take a deep breath before you say something stupid.
Sorry mate you are putting forward a point of view, quaint as it is.
 

Sweet Jesus

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Nations and states are two different things. A nation state is a state with the ability to broadly identify with a nation. but a nation isn't necessarily a state. This isn't a controversial definition either, its pretty well accepted.

I've got a mate who was a 'Bra Boy and is probably still affiliated with them. Not from Cronulla but close enough to what you are getting at. I don't object to that stuff unless it starts down the road to ethnic cleansing.
And if these knuckleheads declared themselves a breakaway nation would you be on board with that?

My dad was black and arrived here during the White Australia policy. He couldn't become a citizen until it ended.
And presumably we should reject that kind of ethnonationalism.

You're talking about a state, but not necessarily a nation.
What standard do you propose for the establishment of a nation? Simply saying so?
 

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Verdun

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It ain't up to you mate, settle down with your preciousness.

Your metrics are your metrics, not facts.

Not sure why you are so fired up - take a deep breath and chill out.
 

Verdun

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Agreed. That's why we have international law.

Consider how dumb your position must be that you have to renounce international law to defend it.
Why are you so angry, just pointing out that you have a point of view....chill enjoy it stop with the cheap shots. I read your posts and think jeeez he knows his law, knows what he is talking about - interprets is so well must know their jurisprudence. We are very lucky to have the insight provided by your posts.
 

ferball

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And if these knuckleheads declared themselves a breakaway nation would you be on board with that?
Breakaway nation implies they will be creating a separate state and all the associated institutions. Its not gonna happen for the Bra Boys. Bundjalung might be in a position to do it. Some of their institutions still exist.

And presumably we should reject that kind of ethnonationalism.
One that uses excluisivity as the basis for discrimination? Sure.

What standard do you propose for the establishment of a nation? Simply saying so?
This is the generally accepted definition of a nation:

A nation is a group of people who share the same culture, history, language or ethnicity.


That's "or" not "and". So it doesn't have to be all of those things. (Obviously or the "ethno" in ethnonationalism would be redundant.)

So yeah, basically saying so.
 

Sweet Jesus

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Why are you so angry, just pointing out that you have a point of view....chill enjoy it stop with the cheap shots. I read your posts and think jeeez he knows his law, knows what he is talking about - interprets is so well must know their jurisprudence. We are very lucky to have the insight provided by your posts.
You've done your dash.
 

Sweet Jesus

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Breakaway nation implies they will be creating a separate state and all the associated institutions. Its not gonna happen for the Bra Boys. Bundjalung might be in a position to do it. Some of their institutions still exist.
What's the difference between the Bundjalung nation and the Bra Boys becoming a nation?

One that uses excluisivity as the basis for discrimination? Sure.
Could I as a white fella show up to the Bundjalung nation and become a citizen?

Isn't that exclusion/discrimination?

This is why we shouldn't be breaking up the Australian nation state into our own separate "nations" based on race/ethnicity/ancestry.

You've got your Bundjalung nation based on shared heritage. So now we have to acknowledge the "Cronulla nation" where there are no brown people allowed.

Is that what we want?

This is the generally accepted definition of a nation:

A nation is a group of people who share the same culture, history, language or ethnicity.

That's "or" not "and". So it doesn't have to be all of those things. (Obviously or the "ethno" in ethnonationalism would be redundant.)

So yeah, basically saying so.
That's too general to be meaningful.

Under that definition, the Bra Boys are absolutely eligible to declare themselves a nation and you'd presumably consider the assertion legitimate?
 
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ferball

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What's the difference between the Bundjalung nation and the Bra Boys becoming a nation?
Effectively? Their ability to maintain themselves.

Could I as a white fella show up to the Bundjalung nation and become a citizen?
If you just rocked up? Of course not. Did you miss the bit about sharing something? Something cultural, historical or maybe you've been exposed to their language and it genuinely moves you.


That's too general to be meaningful.

Under that definition, the Bra Boys are absolutely eligible to declare themselves a nation and you'd presumably consider the assertion legitimate?
Of course its legitimate. They aren't a state but they do control some territory. I dunno if they are an official micronation but it could apply informally. If they made that assertion. AFAIK they haven't.
 

Sweet Jesus

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Effectively? Their ability to maintain themselves.
What does that mean?

If you just rocked up? Of course not. Did you miss the bit about sharing something? Something cultural, historical or maybe you've been exposed to their language and it genuinely moves you.
How would I qualify for Bundjalung citizenship?

Of course its legitimate. They aren't a state but they do control some territory. I dunno if they are an official micronation but it could apply informally. If they made that assertion. AFAIK they haven't.
What a load of rubbish. This renders the term meaningless.
 

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