Blake's stats

[Cohzee]

Can you ladies get a private room or something, please?

 

[Cattery]

Can you ladies get a private room or something, please?

Naw let it go, it's an interesting discussion.
Both make good points, catempire in saying bringing other players into it doesn't change Byrne's performances, and rooie's point that it always seems to be the same bloke that cops crap whenever he plays poorly.

Nothing to do with "whipping boy". Credit has and will be given by me when it has been and is due. By the same token though, I don't see the point of sugar coating everything. A player plays poorly, I'll call it like it is.

Sounds fair enough, but in reality you only call it if the player happens to be named Byrnes.
A few weeks back it was because someone had the audacity to be a bit effusive in his praise of what was an excellent game by him, this time it's because rooie "kinda" stuck up for him, either that or because he was less they complimentary in his assessment of Trav.

By the way, yes Byrne's was ordinary on Friday night [ so was Varcoe ] and had a shocker the previous week.

Oh yeah and to avoid you having to ask, I watched the game so I'm going on my own observations and not just stats.

In plain English: what matters most, is how players perform against the best, because that's what happens in finals. Byrnes has performed poorly against such sides this year.

Agree 100% but again have to ask, why is Byrne's the only one singled out in this regard.
Check Varcoe's stats against the four better quality sides he's come up against [ Pies, Saints, Hawks and Crows ] and you'll find his disposal count and goal average are down, and apart from the Collingwood game he's performed average to poor in all of them; his game against the Saints was almost as bad as Byrne's against Hawthorn, but did he cop any flak for it, not bloody likely.

And if we're talking about performing in big games how about the biggest game of all, last years GF where Trav didn't bother the scorers and was among the bottom six worst performed players.

They [ Byrnes and Varcoe ] have had remarkably similar seasons so far IMO, Byrne's gets a bit more of the pill and kicks a few more goals, Varcoe lays more tackles, both have played some very good games, both are at their best when we demolish the opposition but more often then not are found wanting when the heats applied.

The biggest disparity between them is how they're viewed on these boards, when Byrne's plays a bad game or two he's hammered, when Varcoe does the same he avoids criticism, heck he doesn't only avoid criticism he often gets votes, as evidenced by last week when I think at least ten posters had him among the best, some as high as number three.



Yeah I know, I never disappoint.

 

[catempire]

Thought it would only be a matter of time before you popped in Cattery.

It's not complicated, I wouldn't of thought...

rooie posted something about Byrnes and I responded about Byrnes. I made no other claim about any other player.

I don't think a relevant response to a criticism about a player is that other players are also flawed. If you and rooie feel aggrieved that other players don't receive the same criticism, open up a new thread "Byrnes v X v Y" and have the discussion there. Or if someone raises an issue about Varcoe or stokes or whoever, vent your spleen there.

Otherwise, I feel it is perfectly reasonable to respond to a post about a particular player without bringing others into it.

 

[Cattery]

Thought it would only be a matter of time before you popped in Cattery.

It's not complicated, I wouldn't of thought...

rooie posted something about Byrnes and I responded about Byrnes. I made no other claim about any other player.

I don't think a relevant response to a criticism about a player is that other players are also flawed. If you and rooie feel aggrieved that other players don't receive the same criticism, open up a new thread "Byrnes v X v Y" and have the discussion there. Or if someone raises an issue about Varcoe or stokes or whoever, vent your spleen there.

Otherwise, I feel it is perfectly reasonable to respond to a post about a particular player without bringing others into it.

Like I said, I'm never one to disappoint.

Valid points, but let's be honest, how often do threads stay on track, if we have to open a new thread every time one morphs off in other directions the board would sink under the weight of threads, so I just thought it reasonable to question your claim about "calling it like it is" regarding players playing poorly on here, when it seems to me that you're only critical if that players name happens to be ........ well I guess you know who.

I'm not aggrieved about anyone escaping criticism, bewildered would probably be a better word at how Varcoe not only skates straight past any but actually gets praise [ and votes ] when he plays crap games, yet others, you know who in particular, are "liabilities" when they under perform.

 

[catempire]

Like I said, I'm never one to disappoint.

Valid points, but let's be honest, how often do threads stay on track, if we have to open a new thread every time one morphs off in other directions the board would sink under the weight of threads, so I just thought it reasonable to question your claim about "calling it like it is" regarding players playing poorly on here, when it seems to me that you're only critical if that players name happens to be ........ well I guess you know who.

I'm not aggrieved about anyone escaping criticism, bewildered would probably be a better word at how Varcoe not only skates straight past any but actually gets praise [ and votes ] when he plays crap games, yet others, you know who in particular, are "liabilities" when they under perform.

Everyone has their own view of the game and they notice some players differently from others - some players rub people up the wrong way, others have only their good things noticed. It's human nature.

It's not incumbent on me or anyone else to give equal coverage in posts to all players. I've got no issue with healthy debate with what I do post, but I don't see the point of complaining that criticism isn't forthcoming in relation to particular players. You are one voice - if you are critical of someone, say so! I'll be sure to do the same.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

I've fallen right off the Byrnes bandwagon now. He needs to be kicking lots of goals each week to counterbalance his shortcomings. Because he is so terribly onesided he turns the ball over. He really needs to improve his handballing, so does Hogan. They seem to have no power in them and more often than not are done in a panic and they invariably end up in opposition hands.

Yes there were a lot of bad players last Friday night but these two have been guilty of this on numerous occasions this season.

I think Blake has improved a fair bit this season as far as around the ground play goes. It's still not enough IMO but it's a lot better.

 

[Nasma]

One thing that often isn't taken into account is that both Byrnes and Varcoe require a similar type of defender. If the opposition has only one quick backman then whoever gets the slower guy is going to perform much better.

 

[Boxhead_31]

How did a thread about Blakes stat's turn into a Trav vs Shannon thread?

 

[Junk Time]

Is Blakey going to make another appearence on 'coach killers' this week on before the bounce?

 

[Belisarius]

I've fallen right off the Byrnes bandwagon now. He needs to be kicking lots of goals each week to counterbalance his shortcomings. Because he is so terribly onesided he turns the ball over. He really needs to improve his handballing, so does Hogan. They seem to have no power in them and more often than not are done in a panic and they invariably end up in opposition hands.

Yes there were a lot of bad players last Friday night but these two have been guilty of this on numerous occasions this season.

I think Blake has improved a fair bit this season as far as around the ground play goes. It's still not enough IMO but it's a lot better.

I have been critical of Blake for a few years. However this year he has improved and if he continues to improve he could be a good ordinary player. He still needs to do more around the ground but is making better position to receive the ball in the mid-field - and his tap work is fine.

Byrnes I thought after last year was safe - but his year has not been as good as last year. He does need to kick goals to be his most effective.

I must say I like the look of Mitch Duncan. He is not as good Byrnes yet and so therefore cannot replace him - but given another year he might well do. Just has better balance and is a better kick.

Perhaps Menzel may even make it - so Byrnes maybe under the pump next year unless he gets back to the standard he set last year.

 

[catempire]

One thing that often isn't taken into account is that both Byrnes and Varcoe require a similar type of defender. If the opposition has only one quick backman then whoever gets the slower guy is going to perform much better.

This is a great point. I think what you see is the player who is in the best form at the time getting the best defender. I'd expect over the next couple of weeks Stokes will get more attention than Byrnes and Varcoe and this will provide the opportunity for those two to break free.

But that doesn't change the point about performing against the best. All the best teams have multiple good defensive midfielders and backmen. It's not possible just to hope to get a weak defender - good players must be able to perform against the best.

 

[AM]

Bomber's pre-game comments about the reason for Blakey's omission were interesting. As much team related (ie not entirely playing role) as form related.

 

[Schmegg]

Very interesting comments indeed. Blake has always been backed to the hilt by Bomber, maybe this is the end of the affair, wasn't declared a resting move but that he needed (Blake that is) to work out if he wanted to play finals. Four weeks left and a big blockbuster next week, he may not get back in.

 

[CF]

I didn't think he played that bad last week for him. Makes me wonder what has happened during the week at training. Maybe a little chat about what he needs to do was met with some attitude.

 

[Brasil2007]

Very interesting comments indeed. Blake has always been backed to the hilt by Bomber, maybe this is the end of the affair, wasn't declared a resting move but that he needed (Blake that is) to work out if he wanted to play finals. Four weeks left and a big blockbuster next week, he may not get back in.

Not quite true, Bomber has been critical at times (eg after the Saints game last year).

It's clear though that we need to know who can ruck and who can't, in case we lose a ruckman going into the finals. It's worth remembering too that fringe players that come into the side at this time of year are often being put on display for trade.

 

[AM]

I didn't think he played that bad last week for him. Makes me wonder what has happened during the week at training. Maybe a little chat about what he needs to do was met with some attitude.

I'd reckon it's been a more enduring issue than just one week. It seemed to me from Bomber's comments that he's been asking Blakey to perform some team oriented things for some time and he hasn't got the message.

 

[Vdubs]

I didn't think he played that bad last week for him. Makes me wonder what has happened during the week at training. Maybe a little chat about what he needs to do was met with some attitude.

Agree, last week was a lot better than the Crows game, and other games before that were ok. Blake's had a bad week- he was called useless / overrated by Grant Thomas on TF Mon pm. Now dropped and from what Bomber said, it's going to be near impossible for him to get back in. There's nothing he could do in the 2's to redeem himself. I think what we have seen from him is as good as it gets this year. To convert him into a mobile tackling machine and marking in the goalsquare is not going to happen this year. I'm a fan, but it appears they have decided a fit Hawkins, Ottens, Pods, Mooney, +/_ Max is our solution.

I'm really glad he has at least 1 premiership medal anyway.

I still hold out hope for him to continue a slow improvement. Interesting to see how he handles this setback, a true test of character.

 

[Pure_Ownage]

Bomber's pre-game comments about the reason for Blakey's omission were interesting. As much team related (ie not entirely playing role) as form related.

Very pointed comments they were about him needing to play 'our way'. I thought Blake's omission was really just Bomber's desire to fit Hawkins in, but there's obviously more to it than that. If we take him at his word about what he said last week about Moons and Pods being locks, and the fact that he said he was happy with West and Hawkins after the game tonight, I'd say Blake is firmly on the outer.

TBH I wonder what he's talking about. When you say not playing our way, it makes me think of not playing to instructions, maybe lack of tackles, defensive pressure, work for teammates etc, but Blake's never been good at that stuff, so surely it would have been brought up before round 18? Maybe's it's attitude on the training track rather than in game stuff for all we know. Anyway, the coaches know much more than we do so I'll back their judgement, and I hope Blakey doesn't drop his bundle, and can do his best to try and force his way back in.

It was also interesting that he said after the game that the coaches were very happy with two of the boys they bought in, which I think is a reminder to Byrnes that he needs to lift or he could well be joining Blakey in the twos.

 

[AM]

Agree, last week was a lot better than the Crows game, and other games before that were ok. Blake's had a bad week- he was called useless / overrated by Grant Thomas on TF Mon pm. Now dropped and from what Bomber said, it's going to be near impossible for him to get back in. There's nothing he could do in the 2's to redeem himself. I think what we have seen from him is as good as it gets this year. To convert him into a mobile tackling machine and marking in the goalsquare is not going to happen this year. I'm a fan, but it appears they have decided a fit Hawkins, Ottens, Pods, Mooney, +/_ Max is our solution.

I'm really glad he has at least 1 premiership medal anyway.

I still hold out hope for him to continue a slow improvement. Interesting to see how he handles this setback, a true test of character.

Putting into practice what Bomber has been asking him to do would be a good start. Run harder to get to contests. Putting in 2nd and 3rd efforts. Maybe?

 

[Pure_Ownage]

Not quite true, Bomber has been critical at times (eg after the Saints game last year).

It's clear though that we need to know who can ruck and who can't, in case we lose a ruckman going into the finals. It's worth remembering too that fringe players that come into the side at this time of year are often being put on display for trade.

Of course, we're not going to play Dawson or Vardy, or even West in a final. I think the significant thing about Bomber's pointed (he volunteered them, it wasn't like he was pressed about the reasons's for Blake's omission) comments tonight is that they indicate he's clearly not happy with Blake for some reason, and thus he probably won't get back unless Bomber HAS to pick him (i.e. there's an injury to someone else).

As for your final comment, I'm a little confused? Who would be 'put on display for trade'? Are you talking about West? I would argue that it might be something clubs who aren't in finals contention do (Freo did it with Marcus to boost his trade value) but I highly doubt a team pushing for a flag like us would even think about that when it comes to selection. I think West played tonight because his form has been good, and because Bomber wanted to ease Hawkins back in...I don't see it as a shop window exercise.

 

[Casey Cat]

I was gobsmacked by Bomber's pre-game comments. I don't think he's ever given one our players such a public and humiliating spray before. To me, it was very out of character. He also looked pretty stressed at different times of the night and kept hitting the lollies! Maybe he was in a bad mood?

As for Blake - this has been his best season with marked improvement in every area - contested marks, hard ball gets, shepherding. The only thing I personally would pick up on is a need to tackle more. That's it. My guess is that if he just lays tackle after tackle in the VFL and manages to bag a a goal or 2 for a few weeks they'll have to look at him because honestly, Ottens' form is not great, West is just so-so as a player (and not as good as Blake as a ruckman for that matter) and if tonight is anything to go by Hawkins is an absolute spud in the ruck when he goes up against a genuine ruckman.

If we went up against a team in the finals with 2 genuine ruckmen and we only had Hawkins and Ottens..... we'd most likely get smashed. Mummy tore Ottens, Hawkins and West a new one tonight and yet he only broke even against Blake earlier in the year.

Re Byrnes, he still seems out of touch and he would struggle to hold his place when Bartel returns. His work ethic is a real credit to him but a few times tonight he didn't look anywhere near it.

Whatever happens with Blake (whether he plays again with us or not) he has been a major contributor to our success. His hard work and durability allowed King the time to get his body right in 07 and Ottens for the last 3(?) years. Simply put, he has carried the load at the club during the period of our greatest success. Perhaps Bomber feels he has other options he can publicly chip at Blake, but honestly, Hawkins against a real ruckman is no option, West is a goer but raw and no where near as good at centre bounces as Blake and Ottens is, well, fragile.

 

[Conan Troutman]

I'm not so sure Blake is improving myself. Not enough anyway, for someone now in their 6th season playing seniors.

Compared to last year his averages for hitouts and tackles have dropped. His average tackles per game are actually the worst they've been since 2005, and his hitouts not only lower than last year, but also 2008.

His average kicks, marks and goals have not changed from last year. Kicks and marks are both are lower than 07 and 08 too.

He has improved average handballs, bringing his average disposals up higher than last year, but still only up to the same level he was at in 2008.

I know stats aren't everything, but surely there'd be a bit more of an indicator there somewhere?

Personally I thought Bomber's comments were great. Was about time. Blake has been very lucky that Ottens has been injured this year, and that Mummy left. I thought Mumford getting games last year may have given a him scare/wake up call, and shown him up a bit with Mumford happy to go in hard when following up his ruck work, but it doesn't seem like it to me.

 

[Pure_Ownage]

I was gobsmacked by Bomber's pre-game comments. I don't think he's ever given one our players such a public and humiliating spray before. To me, it was very out of character. He also looked pretty stressed at different times of the night and kept hitting the lollies! Maybe he was in a bad mood?

As for Blake - this has been his best season with marked improvement in every area - contested marks, hard ball gets, shepherding. The only thing I personally would pick up on is a need to tackle more. That's it. My guess is that if he just lays tackle after tackle in the VFL and manages to bag a a goal or 2 for a few weeks they'll have to look at him because honestly, Ottens' form is not great, West is just so-so as a player (and not as good as Blake as a ruckman for that matter) and if tonight is anything to go by Hawkins is an absolute spud in the ruck when he goes up against a genuine ruckman.

If we went up against a team in the finals with 2 genuine ruckmen and we only had Hawkins and Ottens..... we'd most likely get smashed. Mummy tore Ottens, Hawkins and West a new one tonight and yet he only broke even against Blake earlier in the year.

Re Byrnes, he still seems out of touch and he would struggle to hold his place when Bartel returns. His work ethic is a real credit to him but a few times tonight he didn't look anywhere near it.

Whatever happens with Blake (whether he plays again with us or not) he has been a major contributor to our success. His hard work and durability allowed King the time to get his body right in 07 and Ottens for the last 3(?) years. Simply put, he has carried the load at the club during the period of our greatest success. Perhaps Bomber feels he has other options he can publicly chip at Blake, but honestly, Hawkins against a real ruckman is no option, West is a goer but raw and no where near as good at centre bounces as Blake and Ottens is, well, fragile.

No I don't think so. The "bad mood" reason is observed for when coaches get pressed on the same question repeatedly in a presser and answer it out of furstration, being more blunt than you'd expect in the process. It was a 'friendly' on ground chat with the TEN people, they didn't even press him on Blake, he volunteered the fact. So whatever is going on, one thing is that Bomber was deliberately trying to make a point, it wasn't his mood or anything. Even for those of us who don't understand it, we ought to give the coach the benefit of the doubt, for his record shows he knows what he's doing.

As for the lollies....some people just have weaknesses...me too with lollies

You make some other decent points, the only real thing is Hawkins didn't ruck much tonight so it's hard to judge him in that role. He'll ruck more next week I'd say (when Pods returns for West) and we'll get a better line then...he'd want to be able to beat Leigh Brown if he's going to have an impact for us as a ruckman in the finals.

Blake has served the club well, and I personally wouldn't have dropped him, but I can see the rationale behind it. People like you forget that for what we lose without Blake as a tap ruckman, we gain in so many other areas by the change, so it might be a net nil all draw if not a win. If that is, IF, Otto's body is up to shouldering 70 + %, which is what I worry about. Time will tell.

Byrnes tried tonight, but made some real errors, particularly with handballs, and didn't put in heaps of defensive pressure. I think he may well be the other one to miss out.

 

[JUBJUB]

I didn't think he played that bad last week for him. Makes me wonder what has happened during the week at training. Maybe a little chat about what he needs to do was met with some attitude.

Missed a spot on his car ?
Don't worry Bomber,Byrnesy will do a better job at cleaning the car

 

[_Me_]

Thought we saw last night why Bomber wanted mummy so much. Blake does not do the small 1% that result in great work. I didn't think West was awesome but i liked his attack and endeavor, that tap to Varcoe was awesome.

As for Byrnes, Lloyd did say he was having an awesome year. He looks out of sorts, and is not providing the excitement he did last year. He could also be struggling with his role and Varcoe's role in the forward line.