International Club Rugby Bledisloe 2: Eden Park - 25th August

[LukeParkerno1]

Bombers, if you actually read what I posted, you would know that I was critical of his selections in the first test. We were never going to beat them at Eden Park. As I said before, and I'll repeat again, it isn't simply a matter of Cooper is selected = the team wins. That's idiotic and you're borderline trolling if you actually think thats how it works (and i suspect that you are a troll). What I was suggesting that unless Deans changes the whole structure of team, which happened to include the inclusion of both Cooper and Moore. Deans has been screwing up team selections long before last weeks game.

Firstly, yes, I wanted Cooper to play at flyhalf. Did Cooper play flyhalf? I don't recall him being a first receiver once, so no. Yes, I totally agree that he was completely useless, but it was part of a gameplan bombers, a very bizarre gameplan that had Cooper as decoy in every set play. In the end, he probably rated better because he didn't touch the ball. At least he wasn't playing like Berrick Barnes. As I said before, you probably can't remember, Barnes doesn't make good decisions out of flyhalf and the game showed exactly why; his first instinct is to kick, when put under pressure he's going to kick regardless of the percentages. He's a good goal-kicker but very average in general play.

Secondly, Moore had a good game apart from some miscommunication in the lineout and it's no surprise that his inclusion resulted in a better scrum, one of the few positives to come out of the game. Watch from the 20minute mark to the 60 minutes mark. Moore was immense. TPN is a flashier type of player but Moore has him covered in every other aspect.

Thirdly, I said before, and I'll say it again and you seem incapable of remembering, without the proper structures and players at his disposal, Cooper is ineffective. We didn't get front foot ball, partly due to lack of work ethic. Timani, Dennis, Higginbotham and Samo once again anonymous at breakdown. No flyhalf can play without front foot ball.

Fourthly, we improved from Sydney (it's hard not to), partly due to the games played by Moore, Sharpe, Timani and Hooper. I'm not sure why you're so biased against these players, but out of all the players you could've criticised you went with the two players who had the least to do with our troubles. If you want a serious discussion about rugby, don't act so stupid and one-sighted.

Deans didn't stuff up selections in the first test and we were MUCH closer in the first test as a result. You put a 'flaky' no 10 back in the side and you wreck what was achieved in the first test. How lovely that you call an 8 point loss WORSE than a 22 point loss....only you would think we played better in the 2nd test, the scoreboard tells the story, that is the bottom line in rugby.

Cooper was fly half half the match and he was ordinary at everything, from field kicking to direction he was beyond rubbish and I am sorry that you love your QLD reds, I want what is best for Australian rugby. What is best for Australian rugby is Barnes at 10 and one of McCabe/O'Connor/Faainga at 12. Keep it simple, keep the structures in place. If you must have Quade it is on the bench ONLY but only if we move from a 5-2 split.

 

[Lions1024]

Deans didn't stuff up selections in the first test and we were MUCH closer in the first test as a result. You put a 'flaky' no 10 back in the side and you wreck what was achieved in the first test. How lovely that you call an 8 point loss WORSE than a 22 point loss....only you would think we played better in the 2nd test, the scoreboard tells the story, that is the bottom line in rugby.

Cooper was fly half half the match and he was ordinary at everything, from field kicking to direction he was beyond rubbish and I am sorry that you love your QLD reds, I want what is best for Australian rugby. What is best for Australian rugby is Barnes at 10 and one of McCabe/O'Connor/Faainga at 12. Keep it simple, keep the structures in place. If you must have Quade it is on the bench ONLY but only if we move from a 5-2 split.

Which half, bombers? I'm starting to think you didn't watch the game. First saying that Moore had an average game, than saying that Cooper was flyhalf for only half the game and then saying that we played better in the first test. You do realise we played with 14 men and kept New Zealand to only 3 points at Eden Park. We restricted the AB's to 9 points till half-time before all hell broke loose due to ridiculous game strategy. We played a very good first half and if we had no coach we would've pushed them.

If you think that having Barnes at 10 is best for Australian rugby after Saturdays game, I personally don't understand how you can be so harsh on Cooper. I'll say this once, Cooper has never in his career had a game as bad as Barnes.

The best thing that could ever happen to Australian Rugby is for John O'Neill to go, Robbie Deans to go and Nucifora to go. Regardless of who plays at 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 we're not going to win another Bledisloe with Deans in charge.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Which half, bombers? I'm starting to think you didn't watch the game. First saying that Moore had an average game, than saying that Cooper was flyhalf for only half the game and then saying that we played better in the first test. You do realise we played with 14 men and kept New Zealand to only 3 points at Eden Park. We restricted the AB's to 9 points till half-time before all hell broke loose due to ridiculous game strategy. We played a very good first half and if we had no coach we would've pushed them.

If you think that having Barnes at 10 is best for Australian rugby after Saturdays game, I personally don't understand how you can be so harsh on Cooper. I'll say this once, Cooper has never in his career had a game as bad as Barnes.

The best thing that could ever happen to Australian Rugby is for John O'Neill to go, Robbie Deans to go and Nucifora to go. Regardless of who plays at 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 we're not going to win another Bledisloe with Deans in charge.

They basically did a 50-50 split of the playmaking duties and it was fine, it isn't Deans' fault that Quade was playing touch foorball. Cooper is a rubbish kicker and was found out severely in that regard. We STILL lost by more, say it whatever way you want to love Quade, we lost and it was purely because Deans didn't just stick with a formula that almost worked in Sydney! Moore was good at what he is- average. Around the paddock he was ordinary and that is TPN's strength.

Check Cooper's WC semi final, that game was that bad it was not funny! Deans may go, but no Australian coach is good enough. If you think McKensie is great....good on you, but he was terrible in the final this year putting Genia at fly half!

 

[Lions1024]

They basically did a 50-50 split of the playmaking duties and it was fine, it isn't Deans' fault that Quade was playing touch foorball. Cooper is a rubbish kicker and was found out severely in that regard. We STILL lost by more, say it whatever way you want to love Quade, we lost and it was purely because Deans didn't just stick with a formula that almost worked in Sydney! Moore was good at what he is- average. Around the paddock he was ordinary and that is TPN's strength.

Check Cooper's WC semi final, that game was that bad it was not funny! Deans may go, but no Australian coach is good enough. If you think McKensie is great....good on you, but he was terrible in the final this year putting Genia at fly half!

You're a Deans fan? Ha. Credibility lost.

Ever consider the fact that the player on bench hadn't played a full game in 10+ weeks? He wasn't going to last the full game, I'd say it was a smart move. I'll admit replacing a prop 2 minutes after half-time was a pretty terrible move though.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

You're a Deans fan? Ha. Credibility lost.

Ever consider the fact that the player on bench hadn't played a full game in 10+ weeks? He wasn't going to last the full game, I'd say it was a smart move. I'll admit replacing a prop 2 minutes after half-time was a pretty terrible move though.

Where on EARTH did I say I was a Deans fan, please point me. I said Deans has done as well as he can this year and we were close in the 1st test with the right team, only the 2nd test I disagreed with the selections. If we are to change him Jake White is the man for the job, not McKensie. McKensie replaces a fly half with a hooker, not even Deans would do that!

 

[Lions1024]

Where on EARTH did I say I was a Deans fan, please point me. I said Deans has done as well as he can this year and we were close in the 1st test with the right team, only the 2nd test I disagreed with the selections. If we are to change him Jake White is the man for the job, not McKensie. McKensie replaces a fly half with a hooker, not even Deans would do that!

You seem to be defending Deans selections.

Eh, what? Are you okay?

 

[LukeParkerno1]

You seem to be defending Deans selections.

Eh, what? Are you okay?

The first test selections were fine considering who was unavailable. People should understand we don't have the depth we had 15 years ago. Our centres have minimal depth, and Barnes is our best no10.

 

[Lions1024]

The first test selections were fine considering who was unavailable. People should understand we don't have the depth we had 15 years ago. Our centres have minimal depth, and Barnes is our best no10.

It might be all irrelevant now. Deans is apparently gone according to twitter.

Edit: I reckon his position became untenable when he went missing after the game. Didn't talk to the player, officials or anything.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

It might be all irrelevant now. Deans is apparently gone according to twitter.

Edit: I reckon his position became untenable when he went missing after the game. Didn't talk to the player, officials or anything.

I don't mind him going but if the replacement is McKensie then we are worse off.

 

[Lions1024]

I don't mind him going but if the replacement is McKensie then we are worse off.

Explain?

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Explain?

He is just as bad without anywhere near the coaching pedigree as Deans, including completely fluffing up a semi final by moving Genia to fly half! If Jake White was the man anointed I would have no issues as the bloke has a better pedigree

 

[S120]

Your criteria for disliking McKenzie is pretty shallow. One bad call (that involved putting his faith in a champion player - not a hangable offence) and he shouldn't be Wallabies coach?

You'd have to think White and McKenzie would be the top 2 candidates at his stage.

 

[Mint Condition]

There's no way White should be Wallabies coach. The last thing we need to do is try and play south african style rugby. Plus, when White won with South Africa in 2007, the brains behind the whole operation was Eddie Jones...and I doubt anyone in Australia is going to be calling for his return.

McKenzie is the man I think. Rumour is that Deans will be gone at the end of this rugby championship and then become coach of the Waratahs!!

 

[Lions1024]

He is just as bad without anywhere near the coaching pedigree as Deans, including completely fluffing up a semi final by moving Genia to fly half! If Jake White was the man anointed I would have no issues as the bloke has a better pedigree

Jake White is s**t.

 

[Lions1024]

In all seriousness though and ignoring bombersno1 ridiculous logic, Jake White will never be coach of the Wallabies. He burnt too many bridges at the ARU when he went and poached Eddie Jones for the RWC2007 and I doubt they want anyone associated with Eddie, let alone Jake, back at the helm of the Wallabies. Past coaching experiences counts for absolutely nothing, Jake White is a shining example, when he was appointed to the Springbok position he essentially had nothing to his name and Deans, had all the credentials yet failed miserably. I don't Jake White is the answer, nor do I think Link is the answer. Link might turn out to be another Eddie Jones, a coach at the forefront of new tactics and strategies who experimented a lot, much to the detriment of the team. The one main difference is that Link is a master manager of players.

Did anyone consider the fact that during Deans coaching career he only really used the one gameplan?

 

[LukeParkerno1]

If we don't want Jake White then look overseas, the coaches are not here, there are in New Zealand especially and South Africa to a lesser degree. White has transformed a terrible Brumbies side that if they didn't lose their starting team they would have made the finals and been hard to beat in the finals. Whether Jones played a role in the 2007WC is irrelevant, this year shows that White has been able to move forward with the game and change tactics. He would be perfect for the Wallabies.

 

[Lions1024]

If we don't want Jake White then look overseas, the coaches are not here, there are in New Zealand especially and South Africa to a lesser degree. White has transformed a terrible Brumbies side that if they didn't lose their starting team they would have made the finals and been hard to beat in the finals. Whether Jones played a role in the 2007WC is irrelevant, this year shows that White has been able to move forward with the game and change tactics. He would be perfect for the Wallabies.

Brumbies got beaten by the Blues at home = White fluffed up the Brumbies final hopes! Jake White is s**t.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Brumbies got beaten by the Blues at home = White fluffed up the Brumbies final hopes! Jake White is s**t.

Yes with a 5th string side, with injuries galore. The Brumbies had more injuries than the Reds. McKensie was worse in replacing a fly half with a halfback!

 

[Lions1024]

Yes with a 5th string side, with injuries galore. The Brumbies had more injuries than the Reds. McKensie was worse in replacing a fly half with a halfback!

Results are results. You out of all people understand that. McKenzie > Eddie Jones > White.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Results are results. You out of all people understand that. McKenzie > Eddie Jones > White.

Under what criteria, if the criteria is results, White has been MUCH better, and you know it. Whether Jones had a say in the WC is irrelevant, all assistant coaches do, not just Jones. The fact is on the world stage Jake White has better credentials. Spin it whatever way you wish, but those are the facts.

 

[Lions1024]

Under what criteria, if the criteria is results, White has been MUCH better, and you know it. Whether Jones had a say in the WC is irrelevant, all assistant coaches do, not just Jones. The fact is on the world stage Jake White has better credentials. Spin it whatever way you wish, but those are the facts.

Calling Jake White a liar? He no lie!

Fact: Eddie Jones was the main reason the Boks won in 2007, Jake White even admitted it himself and the players admitted it. I wonder who SArugby approached to help advise the team in 2011? Hmmmmm...

Fact: Link>White. International record: Link 100%, White 52% (I don't know I made that up)

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Calling Jake White a liar? He no lie!

Fact: Eddie Jones was the main reason the Boks won in 2007, Jake White even admitted it himself and the players admitted it. I wonder who SArugby approached to help advise the team in 2011? Hmmmmm...

Fact: Link>White. International record: Link 100%, White 52% (I don't know I made that up)

Assistant coaches help win premierships/world cups. The head coach has the final say. Put a good strategist as White's assistant if that is the right model that he used. Either way spin it whatever way you want, Internationally White has the most success out of the available candidates, assuming Graham Henry is unavailable

 

[Lions1024]

Assistant coaches help win premierships/world cups. The head coach has the final say. Put a good strategist as White's assistant if that is the right model that he used. Either way spin it whatever way you want, Internationally White has the most success out of the available candidates, assuming Graham Henry is unavailable

Ah, finally bombers. You present a reasoned and objective view. For the record, I actually quite like Jake White and on the topic of next Wallabies coach, I'm indifferent between White and Link. You keep saying international record, but the fact is Link hasn't had a chance to coach an international team so we can only use his previous coaching experience as a guide and unless you've got a TARDIS, I doubt you would have a clue on how Link is going to coach. There isn't a more qualified coach going around and considering how quickly he shot down an approach for the England job, I think he's already been anointed as the next Wallaby coach. Jake White was appointed to the Boks without any senior coaching experience!

As you stated above, in the end there's only so much a head coach can do. That's why the argument that Link is not a very good coach because he shifted Genia to flyhalf is an extremely stupid argument and should be saved for the trolling. He performed a miracle by getting the Reds to the finals considering the injury list.

One of the failings of Deans is his inability to pick decent assistant coaches. Richard Graham and Michael Foley were arguably his best assistants and it's no surprise that when they were involved, the Wallabies were flying circa 2009-2010. But every since the departure of both, the Wallabies have struggled in all areas especially the backline.

The main problem I see with Jake White is that he isn't the greatest tactician and nowhere near Link in terms of innovation of tactics and strategy. I wouldn't go near White unless he's bundled with Eddie Jones or Larkham or a half-decent attacking coach. On the other hand Link is at the forefront of innovation. You look today at his innovations tactically and that's where you'll find the success of the Reds. The likes of the 5-2 bench split, 2 props on the bench, defensive fullback/flyhalf, the roaming winger, the Higginbotham flanker, defensive pods, the quick flick lineout and his variety of first phase backline plays. Nearly every team shifted to a roaming winger this year after the Reds success. The most impressive feature of Link is that he tailors a gameplan to the players he has available, Jake White will try get the players to play his gameplan, similar to Deans. But in saying that there's no doubting that if Jake White gets the right players, and history shows he's a good eye for talent, the Wallabies would a be force.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Ah, finally bombers. You present a reasoned and objective view. For the record, I actually quite like Jake White and on the topic of next Wallabies coach, I'm indifferent between White and Link. You keep saying international record, but the fact is Link hasn't had a chance to coach an international team so we can only use his previous coaching experience as a guide and unless you've got a TARDIS, I doubt you would have a clue on how Link is going to coach. There isn't a more qualified coach going around and considering how quickly he shot down an approach for the England job, I think he's already been anointed as the next Wallaby coach. Jake White was appointed to the Boks without any senior coaching experience!

As you stated above, in the end there's only so much a head coach can do. That's why the argument that Link is not a very good coach because he shifted Genia to flyhalf is an extremely stupid argument and should be saved for the trolling. He performed a miracle by getting the Reds to the finals considering the injury list.

One of the failings of Deans is his inability to pick decent assistant coaches. Richard Graham and Michael Foley were arguably his best assistants and it's no surprise that when they were involved, the Wallabies were flying circa 2009-2010. But every since the departure of both, the Wallabies have struggled in all areas especially the backline.

The main problem I see with Jake White is that he isn't the greatest tactician and nowhere near Link in terms of innovation of tactics and strategy. I wouldn't go near White unless he's bundled with Eddie Jones or Larkham or a half-decent attacking coach. On the other hand Link is at the forefront of innovation. You look today at his innovations tactically and that's where you'll find the success of the Reds. The likes of the 5-2 bench split, 2 props on the bench, defensive fullback/flyhalf, the roaming winger, the Higginbotham flanker, defensive pods, the quick flick lineout and his variety of first phase backline plays. Nearly every team shifted to a roaming winger this year after the Reds success. The most impressive feature of Link is that he tailors a gameplan to the players he has available, Jake White will try get the players to play his gameplan, similar to Deans. But in saying that there's no doubting that if Jake White gets the right players, and history shows he's a good eye for talent, the Wallabies would a be force.

There are better options, I am sorry but I do not rate McKensie in tight situations as time and again he makes the wrong call and Genia to fly half was the single worst decision of the lot. Now whether that was his call, I am not sure, but in the end the head coach has the final word, and any sane person wouldn't move the world's best halfback to fly half.

There are many issues with Deans, but it does centre around his inability to find an Aaron Mager-like inside centre. He is the person that made that Crusaders side impossible to stop, we just don't have that player, and that has killed us. In the end Deans must live and die by his decisions and the results obviously.

I don't believe you need a tactician as a head coach. Sure it can help, but my personal belief is that being a motivator is by far and away the most critical thing. Would you call Hansen a great tactician? De Villers? etc, I just don't see them as tacticians, rather they are motivators. I can see the thought behind it, at the highest level you have the best players, why not get the best motivator to "coach" the team and have 2-3 tactians as assistants. I would have no issue with McKensie as as assistant, but I have an issue as a head coach. I would also think about a full time head coach, similar to Deans, no coach can be affiliated with a State side.

 

[Lions1024]

I don't there's a lot a coach can do in tight situations especially in rugby union. It's all up to the players at that point, a coach can only do so much and you're forgetting that the Reds were never in the game. Regardless of the injury we weren't going to win. The most you could you could extrapolate from that decision is that Link was naive in thinking that Genia could effortlessly slip into flyhalf, but in saying that Link is well known to experiment so it isn't unusual. What would you do differently bombers if you were in the same situation?

I think you've hit the nail in the head. Deans was in some ways carried by the worlds best development system and had access to the all-time greats. No doubting that Deans is a decent coach, but he's effectively a one-trick pony. He can't adapt and that's not a quality that you want in a coach. It's no slight on Deans record, it's simply a case of Deans gameplan doesn't fit well with the structures and the players that he has at his disposal. We've seen evidence of that throughout his tenure, his continual selection of players who don't deserve selection (Ma'afu, Timani, Alexander, S Faingaa & Neville). We need a lot more than one inside centre, we had a pretty good one until Deans decided to play him out of position and then cut him loose.

I don't agree with you on that point. The best coaches are tacticians, it helps if their naturally charismatic but you don't often see a coach with limited knowledge be successful. PdV? Haha... One of the worst coaches of all-time, he was purely picked because he had a different skin colour. Steve Hansen is a brilliant tactician, one of the best and certainly better than Graham Henry. The biggest concern with picking a foreing born coach is that he can't fully rev up the players like a domestic coach can. Deans can't go and say " We're going to * up those ******* Kiwis tonight." He's a Kiwi... I was hoping that the appointment of Steve Hansen, who has throughout his career trashed Deans, would bring out the aggressive side of Deans and really rev the boys up, but he's gone the complete opposite direction. The fact that he complemented the All Blacks is just bizarre considering the rivalry between them. I think he himself has lost faith.

Link wouldn't be affiliated with any state side?