Blicavs retirement?

[Pure_Ownage]

Only the most one eyed Blicavs fan wouldn't now concede that this rule change is only going to make his relevance to the team even more uncertain now. He doesn't rack up enough possessions to play as a mid, he isn't good enough defensively to play as a KPD, and he doesn't present as that dangerous marking tall that can move forward to kick a goal regularly.

Unless this off season sees him adding some new weapons then he really can only play as a 2nd ruck. I'm dubious as to whether that really is enough to justify his place in the team.

Blicavs isn't going to get dropped, while he had a down year this year compared to last year he still led our pressure acts basically every week (whether that says good things about his workrate or bad things about the workrate of his teammates I am not sure but either way he is doing well there) and when the coaches continue to pick a perenially lazy player like Motlop (hopefully this year he isn't lazy) they can't on the other side of the coin drop the player who is one of our hardest working on the track and hardest working and most team oriented within games, it would send completely the wrong message to the younger players about the workrate required. There is a legit debate about what role he plays in though and like you I don't agree with the midfield role, to me he either goes back as a key defender (if we drop or move some of our kpds as we don't need more talls back there) goes back to 2nd ruck or they try and turn him into a CHF (which is a vacant spot we have).

Stanley has the tools to be a genuine star but at the moment he goes missing too often. Needs to toughen up, improve his stamina and work on running to the right positions.

I do agree with all of that. My issue with Stanley is he seems to be a better ruck than a forward as he doesn't seem to read the game that well as a forward which is why he probably runs to the wrong spots a lot. I am starting to come around to the view of Peake (who drafted him to St Kilda and who now works for Wells) who thinks he is a better ruck than a forward, and I suspect that was part of the sales pitch to get him here anyway as he never would have played ruck at St Kilda. He looks better in the ruck when he doesn't have to read the game as much as he gets led to the ball but can then use his tap work (which is pretty good) and his superior movement around the ground to burn the opposing ruckman. If you ignore the Dogs game this year which is an outlier as we were dominating the midfield and pumping it in long against such an undersized defence that even Vardy probably would have kicked 5 that day, all his best games for Geelong both in early 2015 and against Jacobs this year have been when he has played primarily in the ruck. The issue is when he injured his foot last year given we knew at that stage McIntosh and Simpson were done and Vardy was coming off yet another injury, we had no choice but to trade in another ruck in case his foot became career ending (and FWIW Smith was a decent buy for picks 50 and 53). But now it leaves us with a situation where both Smith and Stanley are decent ruckmen (I would say Smith is slightly better but it's a marginal call) but neither is a good forward and if we use Stanley as a primary ruckman apart from putting Smith in the vfl we still then have no CHF with all our kpf's going this trade period. The team probably needs Stanley to become a decent forward which isn't out of the question as the Dogs just won a flag with Zaine Cordy at CHF and he is one of the least natural forwards I have ever seen, but Stanley is probably only ever going to reach his real potential at Geelong playing in the ruck.

Don't know about everyone else but I'm sick to death of our CHF's having to pinch hit in the ruck,it's the clubs biggest f--king failure in list management since the demise of Otto.I only want to see Stanley do one or the other next year,preference second ruck.

The issue with that is it still leaves us with no CHF and without that teams will keep triple teaming Hawkins as we are too predictable without a decent second tall as an option to kick to. If Stanley was ruck only we would still need to find a CHF either by playing Blitz there or putting Black or House straight in, unless we move Henderson or Taylor forward (if we had to do that it would be Taylor I move as we will need to build the backline around Hendo in 2-3 years when Lonergan Mackie and Taylor are retired so no point moving Hendo now).

 

[Jhye Clark 13]

Blicavs isn't going to get dropped,

Those 6 words epitomise everything that's wrong with the current day football side and is the reason why we've struggled in finals since 2012.

Complacency.

Certain players know their spot in the side is safe and play accordingly. We'll get to the finals again next year with players out of form and still safely cemented in the side.

 

[Pure_Ownage]

Those 6 words epitomise everything that's wrong with the current day football side and is the reason why we've struggled in finals since 2012.

Complacency.

Certain players know their spot in the side is safe and play accordingly. We'll get to the finals again next year with players out of form and still safely cemented in the side.

But that's the whole thing Blicavs doesn't play with complacency he is one of the hardest workers to chase and pressure and harass and put on blocks for teammates and show the right values, as well as in training and to try and improve his game there. Whether you think he is just in a form slump (although he wasn't horrible this year just down on the peak of last year) is being played in the wrong role or plain doesn't have the ability to be a good standard footballer long term is a valid debate but if he fails it won't be through complacency he works harder than almost all our players bar Joel and Danger. My point was just you can't keep putting up with laziness from guys like Motlop because of their perceived upside and then on the other side drop your hardest working player, that would be wrong for all sorts of reasons. Which is why Blicavs will stay, I just hope they change his role.

 

[Jhye Clark 13]

Which is why Blicavs will stay,

That's a given regardless of performance.

I just hope they change his role.

If they have Taylor groomed for CHF like I indicators in the pre-season suggest, then I see Stanley playing as the back up ruckman and Blicavs continuing on as an under performing midfielder again. Unfortunately our MC refrain from making the hard calls.

Regardless, one of Stanley and Blicavs should get first crack as the back-up ruckman and Stanley I feel has more tricks and is more valuable in other areas.

 

[Pure_Ownage]

That's a given regardless of performance.


If they have Taylor groomed for CHF like I indicators in the pre-season suggest, then I see Stanley playing as the back up ruckman and Blicavs continuing on as an under performing midfielder again. Unfortunately our MC refrain from making the hard calls.

Regardless, one of Stanley and Blicavs should get first crack as the back-up ruckman and Stanley I feel has more tricks and is more valuable in other areas.

CHF and ruck are our two big question marks and I suspect they will be trying a lot of options in both roles over the pre season to see what works, I doubt anything is set in stone for either position yet.

 

[Cronin]

Not mine. I still think Smith or Stanley are best suited when they play the no.1 ruck role all to themselves. They are both similar players to John Barnes who was never the best tap ruckman but he matched you with his endurance around the ground. Smith and Stanley's stats for season 2016 are almost identical. Smith averaged 4 hit-outs more per game.
I think Blicavs is our best backup ruck as he is more agile than Stanley and can mix it as a midfielder while having to ruck. Stanley is going to have to play forward a lot more next season and I suspect that will be the case.

Then again, Smith was absolutely putrid in the finals. One of most embarrassing displays by a bloke proclaimed to be the 'answer to all our rucking woes'.

The reason I like them as a rucking tandem is like you mentioned they're both athletic, big bodied, 26yo, who are more suited to play as the resting forward but IMO neither can hold down that 2nd KPF spot for the whole year, which is something we desperately need.

Another reason is durability because if one goes down during a game then atleast we'd still have the other to do the bulk of the ruck work with Blicavs helping out a bit and we wouldn't have to change our forward setup.

And then you've got team balance because I guarantee the MC are going to want to play;
Lonergan, Taylor, Henderson, Kolodjashnij, Hawkins, Smith, Stanley, and Blicavs all in the same team.

On the flip side, if they decide to play the four talls down back then Stanley WILL have to play as the 2nd KPF and Blicavs 2nd ruck, however if that's the case then I can see all 3 sharing the ruck work, which I don't like because there's no stability or structure.

Hopefully another full pre-season working together, along with the midfield group, will develop them into a fairly lethal combination.

 

[Cronin]

CHF and ruck are our two big question marks and I suspect they will be trying a lot of options in both roles over the pre season to see what works, I doubt anything is set in stone for either position yet.

I give them a little bit of leadway for the instability of the best 22 last year because of so many new faces and players coming off injury.

But there's no excuse this year, they need to workout before round 1 what the best setup is and stick with it.

 

[Spazz Cat]

That's a given regardless of performance.


If they have Taylor groomed for CHF like I indicators in the pre-season suggest, then I see Stanley playing as the back up ruckman and Blicavs continuing on as an under performing midfielder again. Unfortunately our MC refrain from making the hard calls.

Regardless, one of Stanley and Blicavs should get first crack as the back-up ruckman and Stanley I feel has more tricks and is more valuable in other areas.

I agree with a lot the points you've made in this and your previous posts, but it's a tough situation in doing what's better for the team and rewarding players for hard work.
I'm sure Motlop doesn't work as hard as plenty of others but he can and has been a match winner so it's a hard call.
Playing Blitz as a key back certainly is not what is best for our team as we have 1 too many elite talls there already. It simply inventing a position for him that's not there.
Having any player that's undroppable no matter how hard they work isn't great for the team. If it should be like that GHS would play every week.
Dunno about you but I just want to have the best team structure with the best performing players that fit in that structure for most games.
We would be a really hard team to beat if we could do this.

 

[Spazz Cat]

The reason I like them as a rucking tandem is like you mentioned they're both athletic, big bodied, 26yo, who are more suited to play as the resting forward but IMO neither can hold down that 2nd KPF spot for the whole year, which is something we desperately need.

Another reason is durability because if one goes down during a game then atleast we'd still have the other to do the bulk of the ruck work with Blicavs helping out a bit and we wouldn't have to change our forward setup.

And then you've got team balance because I guarantee the MC are going to want to play;
Lonergan, Taylor, Henderson, Kolodjashnij, Hawkins, Smith, Stanley, and Blicavs all in the same team.

On the flip side, if they decide to play the four talls down back then Stanley WILL have to play as the 2nd KPF and Blicavs 2nd ruck, however if that's the case then I can see all 3 sharing the ruck work, which I don't like because there's no stability or structure.

Hopefully another full pre-season working together, along with the midfield group, will develop them into a fairly lethal combination.

We've been lucky that Stkilda already put in the time and effort to see if Stanley is a CHF and he isn't.
I hope we don't go down that track.
If the MC plays all those talls + Mackie in the same team then they are incompetent.

 

[Pure_Ownage]

We've been lucky that Stkilda already put in the time and effort to see if Stanley is a CHF and he isn't.
I hope we don't go down that track.
If the MC plays all those talls + Mackie in the same team then they are incompetent.

Stanley isn't a CHF more than a ruck it isn't his best position but with us losing all of Clark Vardy and Kersten in one year and us being in a flag window the only issue is whether Stanley as a 'manufactured' CHF is better than the next best alternative we have (which realistically can only come from Taylor Henderson Black House or maybe Blicavs) to help us win a flag in 2017. Cordy is not even a key forward he was drafted as and will be a key defender he was just a warm body to plug a gap for them once Redpath went down and sides have won flags with guys like Q Lynch and Hale as their key forwards who are not great but they filled a role in a structure. Stanley might need to do the same.

 

[Spazz Cat]

Stanley isn't a CHF more than a ruck it isn't his best position but with us losing all of Clark Vardy and Kersten in one year and us being in a flag window the only issue is whether Stanley as a 'manufactured' CHF is better than the next best alternative we have (which realistically can only come from Taylor Henderson Black House or maybe Blicavs) to help us win a flag in 2017. Cordy is not even a key forward he was drafted as and will be a key defender he was just a warm body to plug a gap for them once Redpath went down and sides have won flags with guys like Q Lynch and Hale as their key forwards who are not great but they filled a role in a structure. Stanley might need to do the same.

Maybe but I hope not.
He actually could be lethal in a Paegans paddock type situation using his pace but we'd have to clear Tommy out of the forward line which ain't going to happen.
In the 2 tall forward setup he looks quite lost a lot of the time.

 

[Jhye Clark 13]

Maybe but I hope not.
He actually could be lethal in a Paegans paddock type situation using his pace but we'd have to clear Tommy out of the forward line which ain't going to happen.
In the 2 tall forward setup he looks quite lost a lot of the time.

Funnily enough, and I said the same thing last season, Stanley was dangerous when our forwards pushed up the ground and let him run into space. No ruckman is capable of matching him in this area given his pace. He running ability isn't utilised enough.

Playing Blitz as a key back certainly is not what is best for our team as we have 1 too many elite talls there already. It simply inventing a position for him that's not there.

I agree. Blicav's best assets are his endurance, pressure and height. He hasn't displayed any traits that give one confidence that he'd be a consistent goal scorer, he simply doesn't get enough of the ball to be a valuable midfielder if we're to play Scooter as the defensive mid and bearing in mind playing too many defensive midfielders does more harm than good, and we already have an abundance of talls down back who are more qualified and have the runs on the board to prevent him taking up a position in that half of the ground.

Having any player that's undroppable no matter how hard they work isn't great for the team. If it should be like that GHS would play every week.
Dunno about you but I just want to have the best team structure with the best performing players that fit in that structure for most games.
We would be a really hard team to beat if we could do this.

If we're serious then and have learnt anything from the previous season then Mackie and one of Blicavs and Stanley play VFL and we start picking players on merit. If they're not going to play Taylor up forward, or if they do and he struggles, then he joins those kicking up the dew in the early game.

We can't persist with playing players due to past glories.

 

[Spazz Cat]

Funnily enough, and I said the same thing last season, Stanley was dangerous when our forwards pushed up the ground and let him run into space. No ruckman is capable of matching him in this area given his pace. He running ability isn't utilised enough.



I agree. Blicav's best assets are his endurance, pressure and height. He hasn't displayed any traits that give one confidence that he'd be a consistent goal scorer, he simply doesn't get enough of the ball to be a valuable midfielder if we're to play Scooter as the defensive mid and bearing in mind playing too many defensive midfielders does more harm than good, and we already have an abundance of talls down back who are more qualified and have the runs on the board to prevent him taking up a position in that half of the ground.

If we're serious then and have learnt anything from the previous season then Mackie and one of Blicavs and Stanley play VFL and we start picking players on merit. If they're not going to play Taylor up forward, or if they do and he struggles, then he joins those kicking up the dew in the early game.

We can't persist with playing players due to past glories.

Oath. It's about the team and team success not individual players.
Some don't get it and think you're being a campaigner.

 

[Jhye Clark 13]

Oath. It's about the team and team success not individual players.
Some don't get it and think you're being a campaigner.

Don't worry it's becoming a common theme and not just in regards to myself... anyone who doesn't agree with popular opinion and it's dividing the entire board and good contributors are refraining from posting as a result. Now I'll sit here and wait for my post to get moved to the rubbish dump because 1) It featured the word Scooter and 2) will be considered off topic as a result and because it doesn't sit well with certain people who have trouble grasping the truth.

 

[Bobby_]

all this talk about Stanley and Hawkins, I tell ya, it's a shame our midfield is so inconsistent because if we had some decent depth and hardened bodies in there, you could play Dangerfield as a permanent full forward and move Hawkins out of the fifty and he would have absolutely no qualms kicking 80 goals in a season. You always get a half of supporters suggesting it robs Peter to pay Paul but in my view, a dynamic 6ft'2 forward who kicks 4 per game while averaging 16 touches is more valuable to his team than one who averages 32 touches, 1 goal and 1 assist per game.

I understand we experienced this with Gary Ablett Senior but we also came within a bees dick of seeing a premiership in 1989 all mainly due to his exploits up forward. Not saying Dangerfield could do similar but right now, Dangerfield is at the top of his game and there are only a few players like him who could be capable of multiple bags in an era of football dictated by defensive game plans.

..... and Hawkins shits me to tears. His finals record says it all, 4 marks & 1.5 goals is all that he will ever amount to unfortunately.

 

[Pollywaffle]

Lonergan, Taylor, Henderson, Kolodjashnij, Hawkins, Smith, Stanley, and Blicavs all in the same team.

A case of not seeing the 'trees' for the forest perhaps...

 

[you pick one]

The issue with that is it still leaves us with no CHF and without that teams will keep triple teaming Hawkins as we are too predictable without a decent second tall as an option to kick to. If Stanley was ruck only we would still need to find a CHF either by playing Blitz there or putting Black or House straight in, unless we move Henderson or Taylor forward (if we had to do that it would be Taylor I move as we will need to build the backline around Hendo in 2-3 years when Lonergan Mackie and Taylor are retired so no point moving Hendo now).

Forget 2018 and beyond and who might or might not retire, 2017 is where it is at, Stanley rucks with Smith and both spend time in the forward pocket.For the up coming season we are blessed with an abundance of good tall backs so one goes forward my preference is also Taylor and for the same reasons.That structure makes it difficult for Blits and he might have to miss games for team balance,the man is a great story but you cant let that get in the way of what's best for the side and with the third man up gone he falls back in the pack a bit at my selection table.Competition for spots now I like that.Bring it on.

 

[Seeds]

all this talk about Stanley and Hawkins, I tell ya, it's a shame our midfield is so inconsistent because if we had some decent depth and hardened bodies in there, you could play Dangerfield as a permanent full forward and move Hawkins out of the fifty and he would have absolutely no qualms kicking 80 goals in a season. You always get a half of supporters suggesting it robs Peter to pay Paul but in my view, a dynamic 6ft'2 forward who kicks 4 per game while averaging 16 touches is more valuable to his team than one who averages 32 touches, 1 goal and 1 assist per game.

I understand we experienced this with Gary Ablett Senior but we also came within a bees dick of seeing a premiership in 1989 all mainly due to his exploits up forward. Not saying Dangerfield could do similar but right now, Dangerfield is at the top of his game and there are only a few players like him who could be capable of multiple bags in an era of football dictated by defensive game plans.

..... and Hawkins shits me to tears. His finals record says it all, 4 marks & 1.5 goals is all that he will ever amount to unfortunately.

Hawkins was our best finals player in a premiership year. He can produce in finals.

 

[Cursed Cat]

Hawkins was our best finals player in a premiership year. He can produce in finals.

Dragged us back into the game against North in the 2014 Semi too, and was one of our better players in the tight win against Hawthorn in 2016.
Hasn't dominated every final he's played, but has been a very good contributor at times.

 

[Seeds]

Dragged us back into the game against North in the 2014 Semi too, and was one of our better players in the tight win against Hawthorn in 2016.
Hasn't dominated every final he's played, but has been a very good contributor at times.

Was also given a tv by Robert walls for his 2009 prelim performance.

 

[Cursed Cat]

Was also given a tv by Robert walls for his 2009 prelim performance.

underrated game by Hawkins, re-watched that one not long ago, made a big contribution particularly in the first half.

 

[Spazz Cat]

underrated game by Hawkins, re-watched that one not long ago, made a big contribution particularly in the first half.

09 granny. 2 goals in a really low scoring game.

 

[Cursed Cat]

09 granny. 2 goals in a really low scoring game.

1.1
had the big-game presence of mind to 'sell' the poster though!!

 

[Willo_]

Dragged us back into the game against North in the 2014 Semi too, and was one of our better players in the tight win against Hawthorn in 2016.
Hasn't dominated every final he's played, but has been a very good contributor at times.

He almost single handedly pinched that semi for us, was simply enormous in the last quarter and North had no answer for him.

 

[Ricky Vaughn]

He almost single handedly pinched that semi for us, was simply enormous in the last quarter and North had no answer for him.

He's had some great individual finals for sure, but like every player we've got bar Selwood, he just hasn't produced with enough consistency in finals.