Bluemour Discussion Thread III

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Dylan Shiel Vs Ed Curnow last year. Look how similar they are, note Ed lays far more tackles, has a better disposal efficiency and spends far longer on the field. I just don't see Shiel as a gun, he's surrounded by guns and has plenty of guns to rotate with so he doesn't get as tired. Think he's a good midfielder made to look exceptional in an exceptional team.

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He was voted by his peers as the 24th best player in the comp for a reason.

He is also a critical part of the Giants' centre bounce set-up, and is the second-most influential player in the AFL for attendances at centre clearances (that is, when he is present in the square, the Giants tend to get the footy).
http://www.afl.com.au/news/2017-03-06/afl-players-top-50-is-dylan-shiel-the-greatest-giant-of-all

The explosive midfielder missed just one game last year and was the GIANTS' best game-breaker, with his speed and ability to carry the ball his biggest weapon. Shiel gathered 639 possessions at an average of 27.8 a game, kicked 13 goals and was ranked second at the club for total metres gained. Was elevated into the GWS leadership group last year, finished sixth in the best and fairest and is one of the emerging stars capable of helping the GIANTS to their first flag this year.
http://www.gwsgiants.com.au/player-profile/dylan-shiel

He is an A grade attacking and rounded inside/ outside Mid, bordering on elite, 24 years of age, and barracked for us as a kid.

He is precisely the kind of player we need. Comparing him to Curnow is ridiculous.
 

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Iamcarlton

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Front loaded contract extensions for the kids. See: Cripps and Weitering last year.

"Hello first/ second year player on 75-90k. Please extend your contract for 3 years. We'll pay you 1 million, with 600k coming in year one."

Then you stagger the front loaded years for each player, and it leaves you plenty of space later on.
Overpaying players to their value where have i heard or seen that before :rolleyes:
 

Jabba73

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Comparing him to Curnow is ridiculous.
It is constructive because it shows a number of things:
1. Ed gets enough of the ball
2. He is not as damaging as Shiel
3. Ed is more aware of his opponents
4. Shiel is more attacking

Both serve a purpose for their respective sides. Also raises a couple of questions:

1. Would Shiel be as effective for us if only getting the same number of possessions?
2. Would he have the freedom to be as attacking in our side?
3. Is he capable of paying attention to his opponent as well as hunting/finding the ball?
4. Would he get the heavy tag in our side rather than being left free to do as he pleases?

Given the choice, most teams would take Shiel over Ed, doesn't make the comparison irrelevant.
 
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It is constructive because it shows a number of things:
1. Ed gets enough of the ball
2. He is not as damaging as Shiel
3. Ed is more aware of his opponents
4. Shiel is more attacking
Attacking high impact inside/ outside A grade 24 year old mids are exactly what we are looking for.

Both serve a purpose for their respective sides. Also raises a couple of questions:

1. Would Shiel be as effective for us if only getting the same number of possessions?
2. Would he have the freedom to be as attacking in our side?
3. Is he capable of paying attention to his opponent as well as hunting/finding the ball?
4. Would he get the heavy tag in our side rather than being left free to do as he pleases?
Seeing as Shiel more or less tops the competition for presence at stoppages, and inside those stoppage we will have one Patrick 'handball' Cripps feeding the ball out to him, and also taking into account Shiel is an attacking and damaging mid who rates through the roof in metres gained once he gets the ball, then that is a resounding YES.

He would be deadly effective playing with us.

Given the choice, most teams would take Shiel over Ed, doesn't make the comparison irrelevant.
Given the choice every team would take Shiel over Ed (presuming the could afford the formers salary). Its not even debatable.
 
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Repeat after me: We wont be challenging till 2021 onwards.

Trying to fast track this time-frame (and our rebuild) is the worst thing we can do in our current situation; we'll just fall flat on our face again once that window opens and crash and burn again, and need to start all over. Again.

We need to get the foundations right this time.

We want to get in players who will be contributing 2021-2025 (and onwards). 24 year olds and under.
Yep and if we get a freak hawks 08 prem on the way through - so be it.
 

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Have you not been listenting to Bolton the last two years?

We are on a journey. Green shoots. Yada Yada.

We are not going to be challenging for a flag at any time over the next 3-4 years (Fyfes playing career). Not only would it be impossible to assemble a flag capable list in that time (considering where we are coming from) doing so would involve trades, and artificially inflating our ladder position on the back of a gun player who wont be there when the window does open.

Look at GWS. You think we are any chance of assembling a team capable of knocking them off any time soon?

We are better served using those 3-4 years sitting back, assembling a list capable of sustained success post GWS (2021-2025 and onwards). Stockpiling draft picks, building talented depth all over the park, picking off free agents and want-away players from the expansion teams and interstate clubs squeezed out, and selectively targeting free agents who will be at the peak of their powers during the 2021-2025 window.

Getting games into the kids. Getting them to that magical 50-100-150 game mark, playing together as a team, used to the game plan and structures and each other, all as the 2021 window opens.

Repeat after me: We wont be challenging till 2021 onwards, and wont make the eight till 2020. We need a team with talent all across the park, and young enough that they are in the peak of their powers from 2021-2025 to ensure the best possible chance of a flag.

Everything from now till then is the Journey. Be happy with 'green shoots'. If you expect anything else, you are going to be bitterly disappointed.
Say it again the landscape has changed because of FAgency and other factors we can continue to build our side as well as add FA at the same time . In our position we could add quality FA for the next 3 years and not effect our rebuild . Not that thats going to happen .
We will be adding FA next year whether thats a fyfe or similar or a delisted FA or older mature player (silvagni wright ) its called list balance .
As far as not challenging say that to the bulldogs 2 years ago when they were on their knees . With the crop of young players we have now with a midfield of fyfe cripps murphy gibbs and E Curnow playing his best role of a hard tagger again you might be surprised at what our youngsters could do even this early . You have your opinion i have mine at the end of the day they are both irrelevant to the football club . But id much rather be a little more positive about our chances over the next
couple of years because i believe in my view like you do . Then peddle your pessimism as fact!!...
*As for our coach he will say what his contract or lack thereof and the current situation of the side warrants him saying . Hes not going to come out and say we are shooting for the 8 this year is he ? You dont actually believe what coaches say to the media do you ?
 
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Say it again the landscape has changed because of FAgency we can continue to build our side as well as add FA at the same time . In our position we could add quality FA for the next 3 years and not effect our rebuild . Not that thats going to happen .
Free Agents dont go to bottom teams, and if they do they come at an absolute premium.

Additionally, a Free agent would be at least 26 years old (you need 8 consecutive years on a list to qualify).

Finally, adding a few Free agents does affect our rebuild, It eats into our ability to front lead contracts for our young guns now (which frees up cap space later on, and thus also impacts on our ability to get free agents later on when we will be actually needing them). It also artificially inflates our ladder position, thus affecting our draft order.

Your method of rebuilding Carlton is to buy players, and not draft and develop our own. Need I remind you of what got us into this mess in the first place 20 years ago?

As far as not challenging say that to the bulldogs 2 years ago when they were on their knees .
Remind me again how they rebuilt? Was it:

A) Through free agency, or
B) Via trading out experienced players or letting them leave as F/A (Cooney, Griffen, Ward, Jones, Lake, others) and then stockpiling those picks on kids (and trading in a young gun KPF) via the draft (Stringer, Bontempelli, Morris, Hunter, Mcrae, Daniel, Libratore, Johansen, etc etc)?

I'm sorry mate, I can see you love the club, but you're advocating rubbish. If the club did what you're suggesting we would be back on our knees in a few years time circa 2002.
 

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Attacking high impact inside/ outside A grade 24 year old mids are exactly what we are looking for.



Seeing as Shiel more or less tops the competition for presence at stoppages, and inside those stoppage we will have one Patrick 'handball' Cripps feeding the ball out to him, and also taking into account Shiel is an attacking and damaging mid who rates through the roof in metres gained once he gets the ball, then that is a resounding YES.

He would be deadly effective playing with us.



Given the choice every team would take Shiel over Ed (presuming the could afford the formers salary). Its not even debatable.
Yet you say no to Fyfe because we have a messiah complex?

Fyfe is the best in the competition and you don't want him, yet there is only a couple of years age difference between him and Shiel. Confusing.

We could only afford the salary for Shiel because we have the likes of Ed getting paid what he does. That is why the debate about their output is worthwhile.
 
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can cut the condescension with a knife
I try not to, but it just irks me to see people argue that we should repeat the mistakes of the past to somehow get ourselves out of this mess.

Fortunately the club is on point, and clear in its message. Green shoots. The Journey. Depth all over the ground. Age profile. Dont expect anything soon. Working on consistency. Embrace the draft. and so forth.
 

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Yet you say no to Fyfe because we have a messiah complex?

Fyfe is the best in the competition and you don't want him, yet there is only a couple of years age difference between him and Shiel. Confusing.

We could only afford the salary for Shiel because we have the likes of Ed getting paid what he does. That is why the debate about their output is worthwhile.
Dude, Im not dissing Ed. Im just stating the obvious that Sheil is clearly the better player. Im pretty sure that he would agree with me on this one.
 

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Not sure why people bring up the bulldogs as evidence of a 2-year rebuild/turnaround when discussing our rebuild. Totally different situations - they already had heaps of young talent on their list but the club seemed to be dysfunctional due to infighting between coaching staff and senior players.

What it took was someone to come in and unite the club, empower the kids who already had talent & a couple of years development under their belts and introduce better systems and game plan.

When Bolts came to us the list was (and still is to a much lesser extent) a complete shambles.

It's taken St. Kilda 3 years of not making finals 2014, 2015, 2016 under Richardson and finally they will be pushing for top 8 this year. And imho we are coming from further back than they were. I think 2021 is realistic.

As others have stated, people that are impatient and want this to happen sooner by taking the cheap way out again will find us right back at square one. I don't know about you guys, but I'd much rather take an extra year or two and get it right than find ourselves starting at another 5-year rebuild in 2022. That would be just plain depressing. Or worse - get ourselves into Footy Hell - that place of mediocrity between 5th - 12th every single year with no end in sight like Richmond.
 
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Iamcarlton

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Free Agents dont go to bottom teams, and if they do they come at an absolute premium.

Additionally, a Free agent would be at least 26 years old (you need 8 consecutive years on a list to qualify).

Finally, adding a few Free agents does affect our rebuild, It eats into our ability to front lead contracts for our young guns now (which frees up cap space later on, and thus also impacts on our ability to get free agents later on when we will be actually needing them). It also artificially inflates our ladder position, thus affecting our draft order.

Your method of rebuilding Carlton is to buy players, and not draft and develop our own. Need I remind you of what got us into this mess in the first place 20 years ago?



Remind me again how they rebuilt? Was it:

A) Through free agency, or
B) Via trading out experienced players or letting them leave as F/A (Cooney, Griffen, Ward, Jones, Lake, others) and then stockpiling those picks on kids (and trading in a young gun KPF) via the draft (Stringer, Bontempelli, Morris, Hunter, Mcrae, Daniel, Libratore, Johansen, etc etc)?

I'm sorry mate, I can see you love the club, but you're advocating rubbish. If the club did what you're suggesting we would be back on our knees in a few years time circa 2002.
I didnt suggest buying a premiership at all i used it as an example and qualified it by saying not that it would happen . So well done pal for putting those words in my mouth good stuff . What the western bulldogs have done is exactly what we are doing at long last yes . But correct me if im wrong but isnt that Travis Cloke and Stewart Crameri running around in their forwardline this year ?? . So again well done keep peddalling your pessemism whilst at the same time putting anyone and everyone down who dares to challenge your beliefs .
You might need to rejig your thinking football has changed FA is a lot different to trading theres more ways to build a side these days than ever before . I would have thought sos has already proven that to you .
 

Moe B

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Dude, Im not dissing Ed. Im just stating the obvious that Sheil is clearly the better player. Im pretty sure that he would agree with me on this one.
Are people really comparing Ed Curnow to Sheil?? Wow... Ed Curnow should not be on an afl list and Sheil is a pure a grader, why is there confusion on this thread, couldn't care less if Curnow got the ball 40 times a game, he cannot use it at all, that outweighs his ok tagging imo
 
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But correct me if im wrong but isnt that Travis Cloke and Stewart Crameri running around in their forwardline this year
Yeah. They loaded up on Free agents once they were in a position to be challenging. Like all clubs (Hawks etc) do. They'll do it again next year.

We aren't challenging. We're 3-4 years away from that. We can start looking at free agents in 2019ish onwards. At present they are not needed.

So again well done keep peddalling your pessemism whilst at the same time putting anyone and everyone down who dares to challenge your beliefs .
I'm not being pessimistic. I'm just telling you what direction the club is heading in. We are not planning on finals any time soon. We are hitting the draft hard and increasing depth over the ground. We are bringing in players in a certain age bracket (it'll be 24 and under this year) into the club. We are on a 'Journey'. Its not about wins and losses its about Green shoots. We're setting ourself up for a tilt post 2020 and then sustained success from then on. And so on.

And I'm not putting you down. I just don't agree with you and am explaining why. Chill out.
 

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Calling the quality senior players is a bit of a stretch...
That's actually adding to my argument. (and I listed them because they are best 22)

Salary cap can be an issue, especially when we are still dealing with players with inflated contracts and little to offer for them (Thomas, Jones, Jaksch, etc.)...
We won't be after this year.

In this case, I would rather get Shiel.
Get both Shiel and Fyfe. ;)


Other clubs are also going to receive a massive salary cap boost, and some will have access to quality Academy and Father/son inclusions for the foreseeable future. I just don't see where the players are going to come from without Free Agency, given we're expected to lose Gibbs, Thomas, Jones, Jaksch, Boekhorst, Gorringe etc.
 

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Are people really comparing Ed Curnow to Sheil?? Wow... Ed Curnow should not be on an afl list and Sheil is a pure a grader, why is there confusion on this thread, couldn't care less if Curnow got the ball 40 times a game, he cannot use it at all, that outweighs his ok tagging imo
No.

Comparing their output and salaries. Can't have 20 Dylan Shiel's on a list, salary cap won't allow it.

Simple comparison of statistics show Ed is a few tackles a game ahead and a few disposals behind but with better efficiency.

Debate worth having over value as we have to pay the minimum salary somehow. If we don't chase a FA, someone needs to get paid more.

Probably should read the previous posts for context before jumping in.

BTW, Ed is on an AFL list because he adds value to a team. Saying he doesn't belong says more about you than him.
 

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Yeah. They loaded up on Free agents once they were in a position to be challenging. Like all clubs (Hawks etc) do. They'll do it again next year.

We aren't challenging. We're 3-4 years away from that. We can start looking at free agents in 2019ish onwards. At present they are not needed.



I'm not being pessimistic. I'm just telling you what direction the club is heading in. We are not planning on finals any time soon. We are hitting the draft hard and increasing depth over the ground. We are bringing in players in a certain age bracket (it'll be 24 and under this year) into the club. We are on a 'Journey'. Its not about wins and losses its about Green shoots. We're setting ourself up for a tilt post 2020 and then sustained success from then on. And so on.

And I'm not putting you down. I just don't agree with you and am explaining why. Chill out.
Give it one more year and we'll be going after every quality free agent available .
The club has been fast tracking the rebuild in the past 2 drafts and trade periods 1 more year of younger kids coming in then its the old carlton you will see . But it'll be through FA for quality not so much trading .Dont be fooled with the patience garb . Thats my opinion of what will happen not my wish .
 
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Rate higher than Shiel?
Not ATM. When are you talking about getting Shiel though? Wait for FA or trade for him? The latter would take a Treloar like deal, I'm a firm no to that, for many reasons you've stated already actually.

As for Hopper, I just imagine pairing him with Cripps. Physically very intimidating, something we haven't been in years. He's 20 odd & has big scope for improvement.
 
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The club has been fast tracking the rebuild in the past 2 drafts and trade periods 1 more year of younger kids coming in then its the old carlton you will see
Thats exactly what I dont want. No fast tracking the rebuild and no Carlton of Old.

Short cuts and Carlton of Old is what got us into this mess.

We spend the next 3-4 years acquiring 5-6 x A grade mids (with at least one being elite), 1 more 60 goal plus KPF, and 1 A grade ruck. We do this via the draft primarily so the players selected are hitting their straps from 2021 onwards.

Any trades (instead of drafts) must be 24 and under this year (so they can contribute when the window opens). Next year 25 and under. In 2019, they should be 26 and under (and F/A enters the equation to plug any holes that we failed to fill via the draft).

We trade out (or let go of) Gibbs and Kruezer for extra draft picks. Murphy and Simmo can stay for experience and leadership. Cripps to take over when Murph goes (circa 2020 when we're first pushing for the eight).
 

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Yeah and they're going terribly. No evidence to suggest that bringing a superstar into a bottom side does that side any good. You're just kidding yourself and denying your side the good draft picks that your side really needs. Fyfe might make us finish mid table when we're really mid bottom 10 and that will hurt us 3-5 years down the track.

We're out to win a flag, not to finish mid table.
You miss my point. Having a superstar player such as fyfe or GAJ can make a huge difference to the teams performance. Sure they are going terribly because GAJ cant get on the park. The difference between GCS with and without GAJ is night and day. I would even speculate that with Fyfe in our side we would make the 8. Sure if he got injured like GAJ then our performance would struggle. But that is not a reason to ignore free agency. All sides are embracing free agency these days- even the Hawks
 
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