Bluemour Discussion Thread IX

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Just read that Choco Williams has announced he is stepping down from his current role.

Any chance of taking over from where Neil Craig left off in a mentoring role for Bolts?
Bolts doesn't need a senior assistant for mentoring purposes. Next year will be his 4th year and this is after multiple senior coaching jobs. By all means get a better Barker as the senior assistant but that is certainly not Choco.
 

AT97

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I was listening to the "road to the draft" podcast featuring the gws list manager. When the discussion come to the topic of dylan sheil and his future beyond this year, found it interesting when the opportunity to knock any speculation on the head it wasn't. may mean nothing none the less found it interesting.
 

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I was listening to the "road to the draft" podcast featuring the gws list manager. When the discussion come to the topic of dylan sheil and his future beyond this year, found it interesting when the opportunity to knock any speculation on the head it wasn't. may mean nothing none the less found it interesting.
It must mean he's coming to Carlton. :D
 

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I don't know what paying TPP has to do with it. Henderson, Bell, Yarran were all already out the door so that would've freed up plenty of money which it obviously did because we took salary cap dumps.
The point is people were saying North were delusional for not bottoming out and trying to top up because of the state of their list just 5 months ago. Now they are a couple of good decisions or a little bit of luck away from pushing back up the ladder again.

Who knows maybe we should've been trying to attract good best 22 players rather than unproven kids.
The theory behind that path is pretty simple. People are of the belief that players develop when in a winning environment. Hence you don't need 15 first rounders because you can develop players taken with latter picks when you are in a successful side. When you are uncompetitive they don't develop into what they should be.
The theory is maybe in two years McKay, Pickett and Cuningham all become busts because they were in a poor environment for development. They believe that if a Geelong or Sydney ect took them they would of all became B graders simplify because of being part of a winning successful environment.

I have actually agreed with most of the clubs decisions but I think we may have gone too far down the youth path and now with this idea that we won't overpay anyone we are incapable of attracting good AFL level players to the club. We really don't have any other options other than play a very long patience game and the hard part is we still have no idea if we are just another Melbourne pre Roos yet.
No point overpaying for player if that hinders our chance to really go hard for an elite talent. Maintain the strength of the cap and if we get more kids then no issue.

GWS have shown that your kids will improve with a minimal number of senior players - as a side they got flogged constantly for there first couple of years.

Melbourne failed in there first rebuild because of multiple reasons, poor selections, poor coach and delisted the wrong veterans.

Of course its easier to be or become a good player in a good side however cats/swans/hawks have all had a core of guns players that in the main were all recruited at the same time and grew together. We never had the quality of core players those sides had.

Stick with the plan and keep getting good young kids and supplement with good senior, at the right price, player from outside.
 

Funk

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I don't know what paying TPP has to do with it. Henderson, Bell, Yarran were all already out the door so that would've freed up plenty of money which it obviously did because we took salary cap dumps.
The point is people were saying North were delusional for not bottoming out and trying to top up because of the state of their list just 5 months ago. Now they are a couple of good decisions or a little bit of luck away from pushing back up the ladder again.

Who knows maybe we should've been trying to attract good best 22 players rather than unproven kids.
The theory behind that path is pretty simple. People are of the belief that players develop when in a winning environment. Hence you don't need 15 first rounders because you can develop players taken with latter picks when you are in a successful side. When you are uncompetitive they don't develop into what they should be.
The theory is maybe in two years McKay, Pickett and Cuningham all become busts because they were in a poor environment for development. They believe that if a Geelong or Sydney ect took them they would of all became B graders simplify because of being part of a winning successful environment.

I have actually agreed with most of the clubs decisions but I think we may have gone too far down the youth path and now with this idea that we won't overpay anyone we are incapable of attracting good AFL level players to the club. We really don't have any other options other than play a very long patience game and the hard part is we still have no idea if we are just another Melbourne pre Roos yet.
There are so many holes in this argument I'm not sure where to start.

We couldn't really afford a big name player because we had so many overpaid hacks on our list I.e. Paying full TPP while on the bottom of the ladder.

Bell, Yarran, Henderson, Tuohy all left because our team was crap - so who were all these "good best 22 players" that were going to come to the same crap team that other players were leaving?

Tigers will sign FA Lynch because Reiwoldt etc are prepared to be paid "unders" - every time we overpay one player it stops us getting quality in somewhere else on the list.

So to to "overpay" recruits would take us all the way back to the very first point I made - we would have a mediocre team while paying full TPP - and no serious chance of winning a flag.

I'm satisfied with the strategy the club is following.

I completely agree it is "high risk" but IMHO we had no alternative if are serious about not wanting to be stuck in "no mans land" (6-12th on the ladder) but instead actually win a flag.

Better to have a red hot go than die wondering what might have been.
 

Funk

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I would too it all depends on what they can do with their first rounder.
Gaff is my bet.

its very possible but as above, if they can use their first rounder well this season they may well have already rebuilt the majority of their midfield and they have a potentially very good young ruck.

In tradition with the type of scenario's we talk about on here if I was a North supporter I'd be saying
Pick ~10 for Setterfield
Future second for Bolton
Gaff FA
Kelly next year
Flag

After seeing what Richmond achieved after getting things right from a similar position I'm nowhere near ready to write them off.
Mitchell and Gaff to Carlton??

Would be very happy with that.
 

Funk

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I really have no idea what way they will go but I've heard Geelong need to bottom out rebuild, they didn't and are fine, I remember Sydney needed to bottom out and rebuild back when they missed finals, they didn't, Hawthorn are now trying not to as are North. All of those sides lists were in similar if not worse positions than Norths IMO.
Sydney played in a Grand Final and managed to play in a flag just six years later with 16 new players in the side having only dropped out of finals once.
I think we spend way too much time concentrating on high picks
Those 3 teams (HAW, GEE, SYD) were all strong and deep before the compromised drafts began and had excellent recruiting teams.

The lower teams were not able to stock up on talent because most of it was heading to GC & GWS.

Then Free Agency started and these same clubs (plus NM) picked up players from other (usually bottom) clubs for nothing.

So IMHO they stayed up the top largely due the constraints on the lower teams trying to improve.

I don't see what those clubs did 10 years ago bears any relevance whatsoever to Carlton's situation 3 years ago - the circumstances are almost completely the opposite.
 

Funk

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Well we will need to sweeten the deal, apparently GWS have asked for Adelaide's 2nd as well but we need that to get Brodie and Scrimshaw from GC.
They are contracted for TWO more years though which means our more preferred "Casboult and a 4th" won't cut it.

Bloody Gold Coast!!:mad:...
They'll need Levi now that Lynch is leaving................
 

Funk

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Sorry I got side tracked. I was just making comparisons on how other clubs have successfully rebuilt.
I again disagree.

To "rebuild" infers their lists were in a bad way.

They actually had very strong lists - all they did was keep topping them up.

More like repainting a very nice house versus making good a "renovators delight"!!!!!

Circumstances could not be more different.
 

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With mentors like Choco...

That Port side had some serious talent. Its a wonder they didn't win more premierships. Their Major sponsor at the time Allan Scott infamously said that Port would never win a premiership under Choco. He did this early in 2014 after they had been clearly the best team in 2012 and 2013 yet bombed out in the finals. The tie was a proverbial middle finger to Scott. Reportedly scott did this in business to motivate people( throw the challenge down) , something that worked for williams and in his trucking business.
choco 1.png


IMO williams was a good developer of talent. And on that basis could add something to our young group. That 2001-2004 period was trully a formidable combination. Interestingly he was at the Tigers under hardwick as development coach until illness triggered retirement, then returning once his illness was cured.. You could argue that Williams is significantly responsible for the state of the tigers list now. He was also at GWS as assistant . Worth a chat , if he is well enough.
 
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Funk

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That Port side had some serious talent. Its a wonder they didn't win more premierships. Their Major sponsor at the time Allan Scott infamously said that Port would never win a premiership under Choco. He did this early in 2014 after they had been clearly the best team in 2012 and 2013 yet bombed out in the finals. The tie was a proverbial middle finger to Scott. Reportedly scott did this in business to motivate people( throw the challenge down) , something that worked for williams and in his trucking business.
View attachment 536881

IMO williams was a good developer of talent. And on that basis could add something to our young group. That 2001-2004 period was trully a formidable combination. Interestingly he was at the Tigers under hardwick as development coach until illness triggered retirement. You could argue that Williams is significantly responsible for the state of the tigers list now. Worth a chat , if he is well enough
Tigers got a whole lot better after Choco left..............
 

therubbernub

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Tigers got a whole lot better after Choco left..............

Fair enough. But you cant just write his successes as a development coach off . Richmond, GWS and even hawthorn (burgogne) have all benefited. As a mentor and overseeing development , he could be very valuable.
 
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That Port side had some serious talent. Its a wonder they didn't win more premierships. Their Major sponsor at the time Allan Scott infamously said that Port would never win a premiership under Choco. He did this early in 2014 after they had been clearly the best team in 2012 and 2013 yet bombed out in the finals. The tie was a proverbial middle finger to Scott. Reportedly scott did this in business to motivate people( throw the challenge down) , something that worked for williams and in his trucking business.
View attachment 536881

IMO williams was a good developer of talent. And on that basis could add something to our young group. That 2001-2004 period was trully a formidable combination. Interestingly he was at the Tigers under hardwick as development coach until illness triggered retirement. You could argue that Williams is significantly responsible for the state of the tigers list now. Worth a chat , if he is well enough
I think Chocco is past his best.

He left Tigers, late 2016, and went to coach AJAX in the ammo's plus look after another 20 clubs. He was diagnosed with lymphoma in 2014.
 

Gethelred

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They'll need Levi now that Lynch is leaving................
Now that's an interesting thought...

That being said, they've Wright whose relatively developed, do they have/need a bigger body to protect anyone, do they even need another tall structurally? Who do they have developing that the inclusion of Casboult would assist? I don't quite see it, but I'm not particularly interested in GC's list really.

If he were rated at all by other clubs, whenever his contract has expired over the past few years someone would've taken him up on it over our offer.
 

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Seen discussion about Choco in my recent activity so I apologise if this isn't welcome, but it's an interesting fact to us as Port that he's the only premiership winning coach to never get another gig.

He's probably past it, but we were always curious to see what he could do as head coach away from Port.

Sent from mTalk
 
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