Bluemour Discussion Thread XV - Facts Not Welcome

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Well thank you but at my age, I'm not counting any more. Too many numbers.

I'm a strong advocate of cohesion, inside and outside the team.
When the positive energy is palpable all around the club, people just lift. A little here, a little there and all of a sudden the whole is so much better than they were before.

Look at what Balme did for Richmond. It's no fluke that he comes along and almost everyone just somehow seems to have become more mature (I did say almost) and start to work fluently towards a common goal.

What I wonder is whether Bolton genuinely welcomed having had Walls handed over to him. Not everyone would have accepted this as being a good idea.
Now, it may be working beautifully and better than we could have imagined, but again we put something into place that has so many ways fo going wrong.
Anyway, only time will tell, as it usually does.
I hear you Harks, things could go wrong but i think Walls could be a very astute appointment. But as you said we'll never know the inner workings of the club.
 

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ferrisb

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I strongly believe Coniglio will re-sign with the Giants. They are his club. He has very strong relationships with those in the Club. He is one of their 3 leaders. They have made the room to keep the players they need to and really really want to now. They are potential flag contenders for his next 4-5 years.

Staying.
I agree. But if he doesn't stay at GWS, I'd be happy to see him end up somewhere other than West Coast...







... or Fremantle, Adelaide, Brisbane, Collingwood, Essendon, Geelong, Gold Coast, Hawthorn, Melbourne, North, Port, Richmond, St Kilda, Syd, Bulldogs.

:p
 

Monkey King

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One can attach any ones name they wish to here, but given the above circumstances, if the team is not to perform, there's only one place to look at.
I just think it folly to be patient with the list but impatient with the coach. If the team doesn’t perform then for sure look at Bolton, but without red flags on his ability to coach, it would be disappointing to see win-loss drive a desicion.

Completely agree with you on Walls btw. (EDIT: and Happy Birthday!)
 

HARKER

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I just think it folly to be patient with the list but impatient with the coach. If the team doesn’t perform then for sure look at Bolton, but without red flags on his ability to coach, it would be disappointing to see win-loss drive a decision.
I don't think there'll be too much patience with the list at all, going forward.
The class of '15 will be in their fourth year and the '16 group into their third now.

There will be of course be individual reasons why someone may not be able to perform at optimum levels, but the green shoots story is over.
We'll likely only have three players start for us that are in their first or second years (Dow, O'Brien & Walsh) That may be less than for most other teams.

Wins and losses may not come into account, but effort and a never-say-die attitude simply has to.
 
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For me, a judgement on the coaching group and Bolts himself won't come from wins/losses in 2019 but competitiveness.

If we turn our injury situation around from last year, I'd like to see around 17-20 highly competitive games. By that, I mean we're within a couple of goals or even in front at some stage in the last quarter. Of course there will be a handful where we get well beaten, but it should be the exception rather than the rule this year.

We may only win 4-5 games, but if we're competitive in 80% of them we're on the right track. This will be even more important in the second half of the season as the team hopefully builds a bit more cohesion. If (and again this is assuming a much better run with injury) we're still copping smashing's every second week in the second half of the season, that's when I'd first start to ask questions about the coaching acumen and Bolton too.
 
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Given the team we had, nothing the coach can do on game day to fix what ailed us. Kids were shot, senior players were injured and the whole squad had played more than they were capable of due to fitness levels being depleted.

Would be surprised if we had even settled on the side by Thursday night a few times during the year, hard to plan when you can only pencil in about 6 reliable players and a handful of kids, leaving a few spots open for anyone who could recover enough to risk playing.

Most of the squad hadn’t played together, can’t build cohesion in an off season and it is made many times harder when there was between 3 and 6 changes most weeks.

There ain’t a coach alive or dead that can make that work.
I reckon 10 changes from that Game against Adelaide and 3 others to think about.

Out: Byrne, Rowe, Mullett, Lamb, Wright, Kerridge (all retired or delisted), probably out De Koning, Lobbe, Silvagni, Lang (that’s 10), possibly out Polson, O’Brien and Thomas - that’s 13.

In Kreuzer, Dow, Kennedy, McGovern, Walsh, Jones, Fisher, Plowman, Williamson, Newman, Fasolo, Bugg and Setterfield. That’s 13. Given Stocker was rated 6 in the draft he could also be a chance.

Docherty could probably find a spot in the side also if fit.

I find it hard to take anything from the game against Adelaide.
 

mediumsizered

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With all the talk of game plan and risk of Bolton perhaps not being up to it tactically, please indulge me with my thoughts.
There were question marks on us playing too tall last year and not having enough small pressure type forwards.
Is there any value to thinking that the Club has been planning and trialling systems that will work to the new rules that have been now put in place for 2019.
I might be reaching here but Bolts talks about building resilience and at times it seemed that in some games the players were put under what would seem unnecessary pressure.
Could this be because we were essentially training the players for 2019 and how the system will look under the new rules.
I might be way off the mark but being ahead of the rest of the competition in this area would be a fresh and exciting concept.
I agree with this thinking, not so much on the basis of potential rule changes, but an acceptance by the club that 2018 was consistently dealing us a crap hand & not much was going to be able to be salvaged from the season as far as ladder position was concerned, but the opportunity for learnings with our list, particularly at the younger end, was too valuable to waste.

As our injuries continued to mount, it became very clear that the 22 we were putting on the field most weeks was not capable of winning games. It was quite disheartening looking at team selection on Thursday night & knowing we really didn't have the weapons to win most games, but the big picture, which was somewhat hard to acknowledge during some pitiful performances, was at play. This picture included knowing there was an extremely talented youngster waiting for us in the early picks of the draft.

2018 will eventually pay us back in spades.
 

JustaBattler

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In 2019 - if Bolton can get the Club to have a lot of 'almost but not quite there because' type losses - he will have done a good job. 2019 should provide enough players and rotations to get a very good look at where the Club is in terms of what is required to play finals - ie what might be missing, as well of course as another year of development into kids.

I think Bolton's biggest loss has already occurred - and that is Docherty being out for the year - how Bolton puts together something down back that works will have a lot to say about how the side goes in 2019.

Setterfield/Marchbank and a few others are still not ready for full training loads and McGovern has now joined the 'rehab' group. I'm not getting ahead of myself - optimistic and expectant yes - but the list on paper isn't what Bolton is guaranteed to put on the field in round 1.
 

Gavstar

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Our "gameplan" or lack thereof has been disappointing.
We had one you just needed a PhD to understand it as it was overcomplicated. As a result players looked confused and got caught out of position. Sounds like we have had theoretical strategic geniuses and need to simplify the plan and make it more practical.

Then we need to ensure the plan is adaptable enough to overcome pressure & opposition tactics. As Mike Tyson put it “Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth.”
 

gbatman

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Bolton was able to take charge of Hawthorn and get the same results and when he first arrived at Carlton we were all very happy with what he produced strategically and structurally. As the team has deteriorated he's tried and changed things which is not unusual. Hardwick did the same things. The coach needs to develop and learn with the players and what we will get is a coach who knows his team extremely well.

If there is a problem strategically then that is as much Brad Lloyd's problem as it is Bolton's. We had a crack at Mitchell but no luck there. I think we should be looking to bring in people who are very good strategically. Perhaps Luke Hodge is a good fit to join our coaching panel.

This is modern football, you don't just sack coaches, you identify areas of weakness and you employ and replace people to oversee these areas as we have done by appointing Andrew Russell.

Other clubs have done similar things with more senior people, like Richmond with Mark Williams. I think this is an area that Brad Lloyd needs to get filled and I am fairly sure that is what we will do.
 

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Kruzering

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Bolton was able to take charge of Hawthorn and get the same results and when he first arrived at Carlton we were all very happy with what he produced strategically and structurally. As the team has deteriorated he's tried and changed things which is not unusual. Hardwick did the same things. The coach needs to develop and learn with the players and what we will get is a coach who knows his team extremely well.

If there is a problem strategically then that is as much Brad Lloyd's problem as it is Bolton's. We had a crack at Mitchell but no luck there. I think we should be looking to bring in people who are very good strategically. Perhaps Luke Hodge is a good fit to join our coaching panel.

This is modern football, you don't just sack coaches, you identify areas of weakness and you employ and replace people to oversee these areas as we have done by appointing Andrew Russell.

Other clubs have done similar things with more senior people, like Richmond with Mark Williams. I think this is an area that Brad Lloyd needs to get filled and I am fairly sure that is what we will do.
Sam Mitchell first drill as a coach resulted in the brownlow medalist breaking his leg and missing the season.

Be careful what you wish for
 
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Bolton was able to take charge of Hawthorn and get the same results and when he first arrived at Carlton we were all very happy with what he produced strategically and structurally. As the team has deteriorated he's tried and changed things which is not unusual. Hardwick did the same things. The coach needs to develop and learn with the players and what we will get is a coach who knows his team extremely well.

If there is a problem strategically then that is as much Brad Lloyd's problem as it is Bolton's. We had a crack at Mitchell but no luck there. I think we should be looking to bring in people who are very good strategically. Perhaps Luke Hodge is a good fit to join our coaching panel.

This is modern football, you don't just sack coaches, you identify areas of weakness and you employ and replace people to oversee these areas as we have done by appointing Andrew Russell.

Other clubs have done similar things with more senior people, like Richmond with Mark Williams. I think this is an area that Brad Lloyd needs to get filled and I am fairly sure that is what we will do.
For numerous reasons I want us to have a good year injury-wise. The main reason is to see whether Bolts can actually coach. I thought he had a very good year 2017, but injuries cruelled any chance to show his abilities in 2018. A scathing review of his game plan is concerning, so it would be good to assess him with a near full-strength team.
The one area I hope he changes is his thinking "we don't get too high, we don't get too low" comment re winning & losing. AFL is a passionate game. It is an emotional game. Sure, we want our teams playing smart, disciplined footy....but we want them getting 'up' for games, celebrating and gaining confidence from good wins, competitive games against good opposition. The boys need the belief that they can play well against the men. When we talk 'bound by blue' it should mean we 'bleed blue'....playing with passion, running through the opposition to get to the ball, being aggressive and standing up for their team-mates. When this happens, the supporters are up and about and the club is stronger. When was the last time we this happened? Who was the last really rugged player we had...David Rhys Jones, Big Earl, Hickmott, Hamill?
All the best teams have tough players who inspire their team-mates. Cripps has it. I reckon Dow has it and will show it in years to come. Who else has it?

So over to you Bolts - enjoy the wins, hate the losses, build the passion.
 

gbatman

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For numerous reasons I want us to have a good year injury-wise. The main reason is to see whether Bolts can actually coach. I thought he had a very good year 2017, but injuries cruelled any chance to show his abilities in 2018. A scathing review of his game plan is concerning, so it would be good to assess him with a near full-strength team.
The one area I hope he changes is his thinking "we don't get too high, we don't get too low" comment re winning & losing. AFL is a passionate game. It is an emotional game. Sure, we want our teams playing smart, disciplined footy....but we want them getting 'up' for games, celebrating and gaining confidence from good wins, competitive games against good opposition. The boys need the belief that they can play well against the men. When we talk 'bound by blue' it should mean we 'bleed blue'....playing with passion, running through the opposition to get to the ball, being aggressive and standing up for their team-mates. When this happens, the supporters are up and about and the club is stronger. When was the last time we this happened? Who was the last really rugged player we had...David Rhys Jones, Big Earl, Hickmott, Hamill?
All the best teams have tough players who inspire their team-mates. Cripps has it. I reckon Dow has it and will show it in years to come. Who else has it?

So over to you Bolts - enjoy the wins, hate the losses, build the passion.
Well that's it. You only find out if someone can coach well when they have the resources around them to do so. We are slowly putting those things in place by bringing in quality people to the football department and bringing in talented players who are slowly maturing. We certainly have more people and players to bring in to get up to scratch and when we're done doing that we will find out.

Coaching is one of those things where you start it with basic training and over time you just keep getting better and better at it.

We are a club which for this entire century has made a laughing stock out of some quite good coaches. There's no doubt that with a good system, culture and a good list and football department that all of the coaches we have had this century could have been quite successful but instead we have frustrated them and caused them to become disgruntled and driven them over the edge. We have been the worst club in the league to coach at for a long time and I think now this is not the case.

I don't have too many doubts that Bolton is the right person for the job. I think he is a little under-resourced still with who he has around him. A better playing list and perhaps some really good strategic minds would not go astray. I think he is becoming the best resourced coach this club has had this century and that is because for once we do no have archaic dinosaurs at the top of the club. I think MLG, Liddle and now Lloyd are very modern people in touch with the modern world and corporate and sporting environment which means problems are now reviewed in depth, isolated and dealt with accordingly in isolation to what is wrong. Not just the team is playing poorly so sack the coach. To think we were that club as recent as this decade is cringeworthy.

In this era, if we identify a problem with strategy, we are more likely to go out and recruit people who specialise in strategy rather than sack the coach. I hope this is something which Brad Lloyd is all over. I think he's probably a good modern coach which is more of a boss and coordinator than a strategist and in charge of everything. Someone who organises everyone, gets everyone on the same page and signs off on things. From what I hear this is what Clarkson is. The assistants have a big say over strategy, coaching and training and are managed by the coach.

I think you're talking about competitive players, I think we have had a focus on recruiting these types, there's no doubt that at least a few of them are. Judd was the last, he was as tough and competitive as they come but Cripps also is, you're quite right. We're just not physically able to play tough footy yet but hopefully that changes soon because the good sides are tough. I have no issue with keeping things balanced, we want consistency, not a team that has a good win one week then loses to a team it should beat the next.

It is very much on the slow build path but it will be good, even if it takes longer than expected. I do think the coach is the right person but in terms of strategy, we will have to wait and see. Perhaps we need a change of game plan and some good strategists brought in, time will tell.
 
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Sure, we want our teams playing smart, disciplined footy....but we want them getting 'up' for games, celebrating and gaining confidence from good wins, competitive games against good opposition.
It'd be a huge move forward if they were 'up' for the winnable games against poor opposition. Sometimes you just need wins to gain some confidence in what you're doing. I don't want to see the kind of early season (soul-destroying) performances we've had against Gold Coast the last 2 years.
 

mediumsizered

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It'd be a huge move forward if they were 'up' for the winnable games against poor opposition. Sometimes you just need wins to gain some confidence in what you're doing. I don't want to see the kind of early season (soul-destroying) performances we've had against Gold Coast the last 2 years.
Hopefully with the absence of Tom Lynch's 15 goals against us from the last 2 seasons, the Suns won't pose a problem in 2019, as was the case at Carrara later last season.
 
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Hopefully with the absence of Tom Lynch's 15 goals against us from the last 2 seasons, the Suns won't pose a problem in 2019, as was the case at Carrara later last season.
Let’s not start pencilling in wins just yet.....
 
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For numerous reasons I want us to have a good year injury-wise. The main reason is to see whether Bolts can actually coach. I thought he had a very good year 2017, but injuries cruelled any chance to show his abilities in 2018. A scathing review of his game plan is concerning, so it would be good to assess him with a near full-strength team.
The one area I hope he changes is his thinking "we don't get too high, we don't get too low" comment re winning & losing. AFL is a passionate game. It is an emotional game. Sure, we want our teams playing smart, disciplined footy....but we want them getting 'up' for games, celebrating and gaining confidence from good wins, competitive games against good opposition. The boys need the belief that they can play well against the men. When we talk 'bound by blue' it should mean we 'bleed blue'....playing with passion, running through the opposition to get to the ball, being aggressive and standing up for their team-mates. When this happens, the supporters are up and about and the club is stronger. When was the last time we this happened? Who was the last really rugged player we had...David Rhys Jones, Big Earl, Hickmott, Hamill?
All the best teams have tough players who inspire their team-mates. Cripps has it. I reckon Dow has it and will show it in years to come. Who else has it?

So over to you Bolts - enjoy the wins, hate the losses, build the passion.
Williamson & McKay have it
 

I bleed Blue

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Hopefully with the absence of Tom Lynch's 15 goals against us from the last 2 seasons, the Suns won't pose a problem in 2019, as was the case at Carrara later last season.
Now he's in probably the best team in the comp.

Really hope he doesn't kick 10 against us round 1. Would be the absolute worst.
 

mediumsizered

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Let’s not start pencilling in wins just yet.....
Looking at our fixture, I just can't see us losing a game.:D
Now he's in probably the best team in the comp.

Really hope he doesn't kick 10 against us round 1. Would be the absolute worst.
I suspect it will take a little while for Lynch & Riewoldt to sort themselves out in the forward line. By mid-season they could be scary, or they may not work so well in unison at all.
 
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